-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
SOLAR POWER
- Thread starter Snook
- Start date
These are tough questions to answer, for now I'd say the best way would be to ask around of people in your area that have them. Unfortunately the solar industry is still very young and the people and products that may be the best, may not even be in the market yet. For example about a year or so ago I heard some talk of "solar Shingles" which were roof shingles with small panels built into them. They were really supposed to change the market because they were much easier to install and cheaper to make but I've yet to see any in use and haven't heard any more about them in the news.
Leasing is out! Thank you.
Yes, I saw that ad too. I know they arent easy questions but this (ICMAG) would be the place to get good answers, if there are any 'good' answers... seems WE are all on the same page as far as electricity goes.. so far I'm very happy with the replies I've gotten..
I read somewhere that the average household of 3 uses about 6000kWh per year.
G
Guest 88950
Snook
traditional silicon pv panels are expensive to produce so they are expensive to buy. heat makes them less efficient on hot days so keep that in mind.
3rd gen solar companies are the future but not many are market ready. some of these companies use a Print to Roll process where they print a Solar Ink on flexible substrates.........KONARKA is just one example of this technology.
IMO a more feasible diy project to generate energy would be to build a vertical axis wind turbine......these operate at a lower rpm and they work in light breezes and in turbulent winds found in a congested city.
Sunbelt Solar installs in our state and there is some good info on their site.
traditional silicon pv panels are expensive to produce so they are expensive to buy. heat makes them less efficient on hot days so keep that in mind.
3rd gen solar companies are the future but not many are market ready. some of these companies use a Print to Roll process where they print a Solar Ink on flexible substrates.........KONARKA is just one example of this technology.
IMO a more feasible diy project to generate energy would be to build a vertical axis wind turbine......these operate at a lower rpm and they work in light breezes and in turbulent winds found in a congested city.
Sunbelt Solar installs in our state and there is some good info on their site.
People say that solar has come a long way. I think not. We were around a lot of installations in the 80's and 90's working on islands on the coast of Maine. Even the high dollar summer folks could not make solar work. They all converted to gas or diesel gennies. But the systems are exactly the same, nothing has changed, except the price per watt is down a little, but mostly because of the subsidies. I looked into becoming a distributor and installer for thin film panels made to look like roof shingles but it was hopeless, the money just doesn't even come close to working out. You have to be connected to the grid to do net metering, the storage issues cannot be overcome. The life span is 20 years so just when you have the system payed for you have to rip it up and replace it all. Also the panels begin a rapid decline in efficiency from jump, and here's one you probably don't know: Solar panels lose massive efficiency in HEAT. So, they don't work well in hot sunny climates.
As someone who lived with solar 20 years I feel pretty safe saying don't go solar unless you have money to burn. But if you want a system that will work look into hot water panels. They are indestructible and work just as well 30 years later as new. My system in Maine had 350 sq feet of Solar King panels and heated my concrete floors, preheated my hot water. I had the system hooked to a wood stove with a water jacket in it and every day, between the wood stove and the panels I had 250 gallons of 135 degree water by 11 AM. I bought all my panels used, at salvage prices and did everything myself, which wasn't hard, and the system will last forever I guess.
As someone who lived with solar 20 years I feel pretty safe saying don't go solar unless you have money to burn. But if you want a system that will work look into hot water panels. They are indestructible and work just as well 30 years later as new. My system in Maine had 350 sq feet of Solar King panels and heated my concrete floors, preheated my hot water. I had the system hooked to a wood stove with a water jacket in it and every day, between the wood stove and the panels I had 250 gallons of 135 degree water by 11 AM. I bought all my panels used, at salvage prices and did everything myself, which wasn't hard, and the system will last forever I guess.
O
OrganicOzarks
I use that in a month and a half during the summer. In the winter I use that in two months.
I sort of looked into solar for my Arizona property and one thing that stood out was Enphase mini inverters. They convert the solar cells DC current @ the solar panel to 240 v AC right to the power panel. Plug and play once you run conduit from the power panel to a weather-tight junction box @ the roof. Up to 17 210 watt panels on one run that can be expandable at any time by plugging in more panels up to the limit. Easy DIY from a mechanical aspect.
Naturally, a qualified electrician would do the power panel hookups to get permits signed off.
The best part is each panel is independent, so if one or more panels is shaded or goes out, the others keep working at full output. With a 25 year full output guarantee on the inverters you would only have to worry if your panels go bad.
Start small to cover your grow light use and add more panels and inverters as finances permit to reduce utility costs.
There's some really big tax credits available from Fed, State and utility co.s to offset initial costs. The older system (when I looked into it) didn't require the monitoring equipment subscription but that may have changed.
http://enphase.com/next-gen/
Worth looking into.
Naturally, a qualified electrician would do the power panel hookups to get permits signed off.
The best part is each panel is independent, so if one or more panels is shaded or goes out, the others keep working at full output. With a 25 year full output guarantee on the inverters you would only have to worry if your panels go bad.
Start small to cover your grow light use and add more panels and inverters as finances permit to reduce utility costs.
There's some really big tax credits available from Fed, State and utility co.s to offset initial costs. The older system (when I looked into it) didn't require the monitoring equipment subscription but that may have changed.
http://enphase.com/next-gen/
Worth looking into.
Stands for mean/average time before failure , usually applied to individual components and sub assemblies rather than the system as a whole , some panels will be DOA and some will last well over twenty but slowly degrade like an ancient hps bulb.
Rattled by winter winds and subjected to frost , cracking is going to damage and degrade them much faster , the warranty i read was full of escape clauses for the supplier.
Bunz
Active member
Before doing this "DIY" consider you're going to have to pull permits to tie into the grid. Your local power company will do the final connections to tie you into the grid and they won't even make an appointment to do the work unless you pulled a permit. With a permit comes inspections and if you're not sure of your local building codes, inspections can be nightmares. Not to mention the building department is going to want plans drawn up also. I say leave it to a contractor and shop around. Ask for references and check the BBB website. Also check your state's contractors license board website to see if the contractor you're considering has had any complaints filed against him, his license is current, he's bonded, he has proper insurance, etc.
JMO
Bunz
JMO
Bunz
What I meant by solar not being competitive if you have reasonable access to a utility is that in an urban neighborhood where the infrastructure already exists, the cost of utility power is unbeatable. On the other hand, if you have a remote cabin and the utility company is going to charge you to run line in, it gets very expensive very quickly, and alternative forms of energy become more viable. The remote cabin installation lends itself well because you would likely have more control over ideally siting your equipment and keeping the sight lines to the panels unobstructed. In a residential neighborhood, it is unlikely that your neighbors would want you topping their trees to keep your solar panels happy, and over the life of the panels, lots of changes can take place in their surroundings.
The other thing that isn't discussed in enough detail is the failure rate of the other equipment in the circuit. Solar panels are very simple, degrade at a predictable rate, and could easily be set up so that the failure of a single panel doesn't shut the entire system down. None of that is true for the inverters. They are very expensive, complicated, virtually unserviceable by the average consumer, and impossible to get around if they fail. As a retired industrial electrician, I can tell you that a sophisticated high-power electronic device that can go 20 years without a failure is extremely rare.
The other thing that isn't discussed in enough detail is the failure rate of the other equipment in the circuit. Solar panels are very simple, degrade at a predictable rate, and could easily be set up so that the failure of a single panel doesn't shut the entire system down. None of that is true for the inverters. They are very expensive, complicated, virtually unserviceable by the average consumer, and impossible to get around if they fail. As a retired industrial electrician, I can tell you that a sophisticated high-power electronic device that can go 20 years without a failure is extremely rare.
S
SeaMaiden
Our water heater is propane, so no savings on that there. However, it's been MONTHS since we've had to take a propane delivery, so between increasing our home's energy efficiency (which comprised a large part of the package), replacing the propane furnace and the original AC unit with heat converter (or whatever they're called, I can't remember, haven't had anything to smoke yet).
The other things that one needs to know have to do with the power meter and the ability to shut off the power feed going back into the lines. They claim that they don't want homeowners zapping their line guys who may be doing work on the lines, but all you need to do is switch off the main switch at the panel. I need a stick to get to our switch, and so that became my mantra with the folks who installed our system--DON'T MAKE ME GET MY STICK!
We could have gone for a 7KW system, which would have been about half the price I quoted you via PM, but we would have likely still been using energy *from* PG&E instead of feeding back to them. We also wouldn't have had any wiggle room should I decide to fire up my indoor grows again, 12KW allows us that wiggle room.
But mostly what there is to know has to do with the meter, the transfer switching, and whether or not you'll be using a bidirectional meter or not. Again, all of this is overseen and ultimately controlled by the utility in question. Each state's utilities have their own set of rules, and I know factually that PG&E is essentially in bed with the CPUC. There are also the permits that each county or parish may require, and they do generally require permits to do this kind of work. In fact, one of the bigger sticking points for us with out county had to do with the back-up gennie and its connection to our propane tank.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, through this program, we received well over $20,000 in rebates, which brought down our costs quite a lot. And, outside of the monthly loan payment we had to come up with $0 out of pocket. This is what makes this program so different from many other solar deals out there, because if we'd had to come up with a down payment and go through loan qualification, there's just no way we could have done it.
Thing to remember is that because these were FEDERAL stimulus funds that were earmarked for states to make homes (in said state) more energy efficient, each state has such a program. The California program so far appears to be the best run, best administered program of all 50 states. So, it doesn't matter whether or not you're in California, each state has seen funding disbursed for this purpose (energy efficiency).
Honestly, anyone who's interested in at least making their home more energy efficient should check out their state's disbursement program, see if the funds have already been disbursed or if they're still sitting on funds that they need to disburse. In California it's run by CHF (California Homebuyers Fund). It costs nothing to speak with a consultant to see if you qualify in the first place.
Our PG&E bills alone have averaged from a low of $300/mo to a high of $800/mo. This was before I ever set up a single grow light, just a family of five in a new build.
The other things that one needs to know have to do with the power meter and the ability to shut off the power feed going back into the lines. They claim that they don't want homeowners zapping their line guys who may be doing work on the lines, but all you need to do is switch off the main switch at the panel. I need a stick to get to our switch, and so that became my mantra with the folks who installed our system--DON'T MAKE ME GET MY STICK!
We could have gone for a 7KW system, which would have been about half the price I quoted you via PM, but we would have likely still been using energy *from* PG&E instead of feeding back to them. We also wouldn't have had any wiggle room should I decide to fire up my indoor grows again, 12KW allows us that wiggle room.
But mostly what there is to know has to do with the meter, the transfer switching, and whether or not you'll be using a bidirectional meter or not. Again, all of this is overseen and ultimately controlled by the utility in question. Each state's utilities have their own set of rules, and I know factually that PG&E is essentially in bed with the CPUC. There are also the permits that each county or parish may require, and they do generally require permits to do this kind of work. In fact, one of the bigger sticking points for us with out county had to do with the back-up gennie and its connection to our propane tank.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, through this program, we received well over $20,000 in rebates, which brought down our costs quite a lot. And, outside of the monthly loan payment we had to come up with $0 out of pocket. This is what makes this program so different from many other solar deals out there, because if we'd had to come up with a down payment and go through loan qualification, there's just no way we could have done it.
Thing to remember is that because these were FEDERAL stimulus funds that were earmarked for states to make homes (in said state) more energy efficient, each state has such a program. The California program so far appears to be the best run, best administered program of all 50 states. So, it doesn't matter whether or not you're in California, each state has seen funding disbursed for this purpose (energy efficiency).
That guy is a gal, and yes, our well-made German panels came with a guarantee, they'll be outlasting the loan period and if not, they'll be replaced at no cost to us. That was part of the guarantee and a requirement for participation in the program. It wouldn't make much sense to have us paying for equipment that isn't working, would it?
Sums what up, exactly? That I won't discuss certain things in an open forum? See, it doesn't matter what package a homeowner goes with when they utilize this program--the loan period is 15 years, period.
Indeed. Not everyone is required to be using an engineered septic system like ours, which is comprised of TWO septic tanks, a sand filter AND a leach field, all of which need to be pumped. Also, we decided to go with the larger system so that we could be certain that we wouldn't be taking PG&E's expensive power back, especially after we were shown how they've been raising rates an average of 15% per annum, compounded, and how that trend is planned to continue (hey, they've gotta pay for the San Bruno fuck up somehow, right?). And then there's the fact that I just might want to fire up my indoor growing again, we wanted some leeway for that.
Honestly, anyone who's interested in at least making their home more energy efficient should check out their state's disbursement program, see if the funds have already been disbursed or if they're still sitting on funds that they need to disburse. In California it's run by CHF (California Homebuyers Fund). It costs nothing to speak with a consultant to see if you qualify in the first place.
Bunz
Active member
If you're running anything near a 4k setup in California, you're electric bill would be at least $800. If you get the right system installed for your needs, I doubt your loan payment will be over $800. Plus during down time, you'd be able to sell electricity back to the utility company.
Bunz
great thread.
i stopped in to a local solar store and asked how much it would cost to run 1000 watts a NIGHT for 12 hours. they said between 8-10 grand. this was with batteries, inverter, panels, cables etc.
i heard a friend of a friend run their lights (much more than 1) during the day (cooler climate or even more panels for a/c) and not need the batteries.?
but what i wasn't thinking about was what about weeks like this when it rains for days at time? still need some back up.
not sure if anyone else besides me cares but i always check to make sure that large purchases like solar is american made- china just fucked us on the solar panel manufacturing.
i plan on getting a couple panels, expandable inverter, batteries and cables and try just supporting our fridge and deep freezer- just to get the hang of it- before going off the grid completely.
i stopped in to a local solar store and asked how much it would cost to run 1000 watts a NIGHT for 12 hours. they said between 8-10 grand. this was with batteries, inverter, panels, cables etc.
i heard a friend of a friend run their lights (much more than 1) during the day (cooler climate or even more panels for a/c) and not need the batteries.?
but what i wasn't thinking about was what about weeks like this when it rains for days at time? still need some back up.
not sure if anyone else besides me cares but i always check to make sure that large purchases like solar is american made- china just fucked us on the solar panel manufacturing.
i plan on getting a couple panels, expandable inverter, batteries and cables and try just supporting our fridge and deep freezer- just to get the hang of it- before going off the grid completely.
Net metering, like SeaMaiden's system, might be an economically viable way to go if you are subject to PG&E's usurious rates, partially subsidized by the government, and are lucky enough to go the distance without an expensive equipment failure. Adding batteries to the equation makes it a whole different thing. Good deep cycle batteries are unbelievably expensive, take dedicated and meticulous care to realize their potential lifespan, out-gas explosive fumes, and a good sized bank can weigh as much as a car.
An excellent resource for learning about the variety of available equipment and how to implement it is Arizona Wind & Sun. Check out their site: http://www.windsun.com/
Our fridge and freezer both step down the 240v to 12v for the pump motors/fridge light , would be simple to rewire and save buying the inverter , cheap way to see for yourself.
Could also manage some 12v lighting and keep a central heating system running in blackouts if they are an issue locally as they are round here.
Been thinking about this for ages and your post has reawakened interest , will be costing it out with a view to actually doing it this year.
Quality recent lorry batteries from a breakers are a useable substitute for the pricey optimal ones , they are three times the price yet cost little more to manufacture than standard form.
You're talking the panels used for heating swimming pools? If so, heating the floors, like in new construction, yes? I could just put a timer on my water heater since there are only 2 in our home and hot water useage is minimal. most of my power bill comes from airconditioning, HIDs and related parifinalia.
As I read more and more, I'm being put off with the whole thing. I'm 64. 64 and 15 (years of payments) makes me 79. Probably in assited living by then... shit. Thanks HK.
