passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

Hello D9. I have read this thread up to around post 500 and its really been interesting to follow your experimental approach. You, Sir, are a pioneer. I am psyched to build a small 4 unit system and give this a shot myself. I may have questions as I build this thing that have already been asked. I hope you won't mind.

Coming from an exclusively organic soil-less perspective I have concerns about nutrient levels in the plant tissue at chop time. Almost all growers seem to flush at least for a little while when using mineral salt-based ferts. So far I haven't read anything that describes any kind of flush in the last days/weeks to deal with this. So:

You don't flush at all prior to harvest? What PPM's of Peters/Calcinit have you settled on for production?

One other materials question:
Where to get the 3.5 gal black buckets that you now use?

I lied. Some more:
Could you give me a link that describes the complete tire valve prep and setup? I'm not clear on this. Just valve guts removed and glued into position? What is the tube/fitting directly attached to the valve stem? What size tubing from there?

Thanks for passing along all this great information. Now back to reading the thread, somewhere in the fall of last year....

stagehand

welcome aboard! thank you

i don't flush at all now with this system because if it is operated at these low ppm levels it does not build up salts in the medium.

the whole thing with flushing started with pot growers using heavy mixes and hand watering. because of the container hydraulics and the drying between waterings they allowed the salt to concentrate in the medium. sometimes the run off would get to 4000-5000 ppm by the end of a grow.

they absolutely had to flush under those circumstances.

i operate mine between 600-750 ppm at the .5 conversion for life and get the cleanest, smoothest smoking pot i have ever tried. i'm 61 and started smoking weed in 1965.

however, if you do want to flush all you have to do is dump the individual plants res, clamp off the bottom line, remove it from the bucket, clamp off the pulse line, and start pouring ro water through it. 5-7 days and you probably won't get much of a reading from the run off.

i'm not using peter's, i'm using jack's hydroponic special 5-12-26. it has a better formula than peters. the jack's has over 6% magnesium in it and the peters is around 3. something. it's a bit confusing as the jack's is sold by jrpeterslab.com.

you will never see a cal mag issue with jack's.

the buckets and a lot of other stuff come from usplastics.com. be sure to get the "re-usable" lids as they are much easier to get on and off. look at both Imaginary Friend's and Zeke99's links below for a good start.

post questions as you go along with your build. i or someone else will be happy to answer you. good luck.

d9

editing to say check out post #650 on page 44 for some tire valve stuff.

 

[stagehand099]

D9, thanks for the responses. So, I'm ordering the stuff I need to make 4 units, a controller bucket, pulse pump bucket and a volume tank. I went with a 20 gal Brute trashcan since I'm going, presumably to have only about half or less volume of water in my system, compared to yours.

See any problems with that size rez?

Where is a good place to get 10-15 of the size (.625 ?) tire valves you use?

I have buckets, volume rez, RO unit, float valve, Jacks Pro, Jacks calcinit, latex 3/16 ID tubing and drip line coming. LOL, I had to buy every damned part of this rig with a garage full of assorted bullshit from other projects.....Oh well, the story of my life.

I will start the build as soon as I get the black 3.5 buckets from USP. I intend to try to take lots of pics and will post a priced materials list with a total as well. I want to stick as close as possible to your setup and fabrication. Along those lines, how did you flush fit the tailpiece/media wick? Grind off most of the top flange? Screen or cable ties on the bottom? I have the Plumbers Goop already.

D9 :

~~"i operate mine between 600-750 ppm at the .5 conversion for life and get the cleanest, smoothest smoking pot i have ever tried. i'm 61 and started smoking weed in 1965.

however, if you do want to flush all you have to do is dump the individual plants res, clamp off the bottom line, remove it from the bucket, clamp off the pulse line, and start pouring ro water through it. 5-7 days and you probably won't get much of a reading from the run off."~~

This is reassuring....I'm just a couple years younger than yourself and smoked my first doob around '68. These lungs aren't getting any younger and can't take the harsh smoke anymore.......

I am looking at a 300 gph Danner Mag Drive pump to do the pulse. Problems here? Found any alternative to using a GA Cyclestat? Them puppies is pricey!

Are you drilling the root-pruning holes the length of the top bucket cyclinder now?

Are you pretty much settled on the bottom solution level (in inches up from bottom) and air gap at this point?

Hey I guess thats enough brain-pickage for now. Feel free to give only brief answers.....I know you've held a number of hands for the last couple years. I'm still reading the thread. Take care.

stagehand

 

[zeke99]

i have thought about making a trimmer based on a rechargeable electric lawnmower.

if you dry the buds first then shook them most of the trim leaves should break off close to the bud. my people would bitch immediately because i have spoiled them with tightly manicured bud.

my biggest worry would be about breaking off or crushing trichs.

it's hard to imagine any machine or technique doing a better job than a conscientious hand trimmer with a good pair of scissors.

i wish somebody would come up with something though because i spend more time trimming than everything else combined

only a well programmed cyborg could do it.

i wear the green, no powder gloves and only touch stems. i guess if I couldn't handle the load, a helper would have to be carefully trained.

An update for you, Sensei:

My first full-on PPK harvest, 5 plants, 4 week veg, 9 week bloom, 1.2 EC, 1st gen. clones of KC Brains Mango, 2 x 600w vertically stacked using generic 30 month old bulbs, 35 ounces, 2 gallon PPK - 3/1 cocogro loose / supercoarse perlite.

If you recall, my last harvest with the same lights was from seed, blue haze in 5 gallon buckets of a peat based commercial mix for 40 ounces.

So medium usage cut down from 5 gallon to 2 gallon, but water usage has roughly doubled. That's no joke, but as you know there is no water waste. Literally zero. Maybe I spilled a little bit on the floor while filling the main res.

The plants are healthier. No more curled leaves. The bud quality is fantastic.

I ditched the 400w long ago, but figured out those plants were too cramped to begin with. They were in a corner.

here is a cheap cell phone pic of the mango:



rock hard, coated in crystals

next up the blue city diesel, with some of the plants in a Turface/coco mix.

Next week, my new Hortilux bulbs arrive from the boys in Texas so that should help.

 

[delta9nxs]

“D9, thanks for the responses. So, I'm ordering the stuff I need to make 4 units, a controller bucket, pulse pump bucket and a volume tank. I went with a 20 gal Brute trashcan since I'm going, presumably to have only about half or less volume of water in my system, compared to yours.”

“See any problems with that size rez?”

no, it should be fine. Later, if it is not giving you the time away that you may need, you can always get a bigger one. This is very subjective.

“Where is a good place to get 10-15 of the size (.625 ?) tire valves you use?”

any tire store. They all have thousands of them. I got mine in bags of fifty for about twelve bucks. If you are using the 1/4” drip line you don't need to drill out the valves, just remove the stem. I grew the largest plant I have ever grown on a 1/4” drip line with a stock valve. Also, while i'm on the subject, you don't need the top pulse terminal apparatus i'm using now. It is designed for a an experimental higher flow volume. You can use the drip line with t's to get four outlets. I would wire tie these to the main stem so they don't fall out on the floor.

“I have buckets, volume rez, RO unit, float valve, Jacks Pro, Jacks calcinit, latex 3/16 ID tubing and drip line coming. LOL, I had to buy every damned part of this rig with a garage full of assorted bullshit from other projects.....Oh well, the story of my life.

I will start the build as soon as I get the black 3.5 buckets from USP. I intend to try to take lots of pics and will post a priced materials list with a total as well. I want to stick as close as possible to your setup and fabrication. Along those lines, how did you flush fit the tailpiece/media wick? Grind off most of the top flange? Screen or cable ties on the bottom? I have the Plumbers Goop already.”

the tailpiece is used as is except for the wire ties at the bottom to hold the medium in the tube. The tailpieces are stock plumbing parts. At lowes they have 6” and 12” ones. I use the 6”. there is a 1/8” lip flange on the tube already so it is custom made for a ppk. Just the tail piece and some glue. Eight 1/8” holes in the bottom.

D9 :

~~"i operate mine between 600-750 ppm at the .5 conversion for life and get the cleanest, smoothest smoking pot i have ever tried. i'm 61 and started smoking weed in 1965.

however, if you do want to flush all you have to do is dump the individual plants res, clamp off the bottom line, remove it from the bucket, clamp off the pulse line, and start pouring ro water through it. 5-7 days and you probably won't get much of a reading from the run off."~~

“This is reassuring....I'm just a couple years younger than yourself and smoked my first doob around '68. These lungs aren't getting any younger and can't take the harsh smoke anymore.......”

i'm totally ruined, I turn down stuff offered at parties after taking a little hit because it's usually schwag. There's a lot of northern cali bud coming into our area now, but it's outdoor and a little harsh. I still have no competition. People still wait for mine. This system will grow very nice stuff. You only taste the weed.

“I am looking at a 300 gph Danner Mag Drive pump to do the pulse. Problems here? Found any alternative to using a GA Cyclestat? Them puppies is pricey!”

the 300 mag drive should be fine for 5 plants using 1/4” drip line. If you move up to the larger 1/4” id line you will probably need another, bigger, pump. The cyclestats work well but at 170 a piece it's too much. I bought them because I thought I would be using the photo cell to stop them during lights off and I knew I would be experimenting a lot. Cap makes some thing that works great for around 70 bucks online. Stranger was using those sentinel drt-1's before he disapeared. Around a hundred each.

“Are you drilling the root-pruning holes the length of the top bucket cyclinder now?”

no, i'm still just drilling the 5 7/16” holes at the bottom. Twelve sets. As the pulse hits no gas can escape the sidewall until it reaches the bottom. This creates a “plunger” effect. Forcing air out of the bottom as it falls and drawing fresh air in from the top.

“Are you pretty much settled on the bottom solution level (in inches up from bottom) and air gap at this point?”

yes, it has proven to be effective at moving the perched water table out of the top grow container yet will still feed the plant. You should not use this turface,ricehull ratio that I am using now as it is too loose for your watering volume. Instead of 3 turface to 1 ricehulls, try 4 turface to 1 ricehull. I think this is more suitable for the volume you will have. Or just go to straight turface. It should do well with your set up.

"Hey I guess thats enough brain-pickage for now. Feel free to give only brief answers.....I know you've held a number of hands for the last couple years. I'm still reading the thread. Take care."

stagehand

good luck, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

only a well programmed cyborg could do it.

i wear the green, no powder gloves and only touch stems. i guess if I couldn't handle the load, a helper would have to be carefully trained.

An update for you, Sensei:

My first full-on PPK harvest, 5 plants, 4 week veg, 9 week bloom, 1.2 EC, 1st gen. clones of KC Brains Mango, 2 x 600w vertically stacked using generic 30 month old bulbs, 35 ounces, 2 gallon PPK - 3/1 cocogro loose / supercoarse perlite.

If you recall, my last harvest with the same lights was from seed, blue haze in 5 gallon buckets of a peat based commercial mix for 40 ounces.

So medium usage cut down from 5 gallon to 2 gallon, but water usage has roughly doubled. That's no joke, but as you know there is no water waste. Literally zero. Maybe I spilled a little bit on the floor while filling the main res.

The plants are healthier. No more curled leaves. The bud quality is fantastic.

I ditched the 400w long ago, but figured out those plants were too cramped to begin with. They were in a corner.

here is a cheap cell phone pic of the mango:



rock hard, coated in crystals

next up the blue city diesel, with some of the plants in a Turface/coco mix.

Next week, my new Hortilux bulbs arrive from the boys in Texas so that should help.

hey, zeke, thanks for the update! not bad for 2 gal containers. the 3.5 buckets will grow anything a 5 gal will. but if i ever want to increase plant counts and pack the room with smaller plants i will go to 2 gal. i can see a scenario with a 100 of them on the floor with horizontal lighting and a 3 week veg.

that mango looks nice, i wish i could try it. later d9

 

[zeke99]

When you can make finger hash from holding the stems only, you say FUCK YEAH PPK.

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

after I loaded my ppk's and began pouring water thru the turfaceMVP/Perlite... clouds of Turface dust spiraled out of the 7/16' holes at the bottom.

i believe this indicates that solution poured in from the top does in fact cause a gas exchange with a plunger effect down thru the root zone.

it was cool.

anyone have tips on an easier way to work the silicon tubing onto the tire valves and drip line?

what silicon tubing? in both iterations i use latex tubing for the connectors.

with the standard 1/4" od drip line, which is .170 id, i used a stock tire valve and 3/16" id latex tubing.

for the larger 3/8" od, 1/4 id line i used a tire valve drilled out to 3/16" and 5/16" id latex tubing.

everything is just "push on", snap off", quick change. you should be heavily rinsing the turface and the perlite separately before you load your container and then rinse the whole thing again after you mix. there's a lot of fines in both substances that can block and clog stuff.

d9

 

[disciple]

 

[chennemann]

First of all I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread. It is an incredible thread with tons of information. I am not suggesting changing the system at all, just talking about possible ideas to grow even larger trees. I had some ideas and was hoping to get feedback:

Container –
Looking at the root balls in ppk, they fill the entire 5 gallon buckets. Also the roots seem to be denser towards the top of the container. One person made a comment saying that the roots were so thick on top that it took a while for the water to soak into the media. So having a larger diameter bucket/container would let those roots spread out more and absorb nutrients. . I wouldn’t say they are root bound, but maybe a larger container would help.

I don’t believe we want to increase the height to much since we want to be able to wick nutrients from the reservoir. I believe 14-20 inch height is perfect depending on what media you’re using. According to this article http://www.cvios.com/perlite_article.htm perlite wicks pretty good up to 8 inches.

So maybe something like this would work http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Plast...5?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1325791222&sr=1-5 22” in diameter and 18” height.
I have 30 gallon drums I am going to use, but they are too tall. Since I am using such a tall container, do you think it would slow down growth if I didn’t create a reservoir and wick. But instead did it more hempy style?

Media –
I am going to use horticultural perlite this time, but I am concerned about compacting. I would think ideally you would want the media to wick, drain freely, have good oxygenation and not compact.
Perlite - would work great since it has good capillary action and would wick half way up. Chunky perlite would drain better but wouldn’t be as good at wicking. Of course perlite compacts.
Rice Hulls – have fantastic drainage and doesn’t compact like perlite. But it doesn’t wick as well.
I am not sure it is a good idea to have uneven soil, but I was thinking of horticultural perlite on the bottom and chunky perlite or rice hulls on the top.

Top/pulse feeding-
If I have a larger container and the media doesn’t have a strong capillary action, I would think having even distribution to be even more important. I was thinking of using 3/8” tubing and making 2 or 3 rings. Drilling 1/8” holes in the tubing to give an even spread of nutrients. I could connect them with 4 way and tees (I already have the john guest fittings).

Thanks again for such a great thread...

 

[delta9nxs]

Sorry about that! Duuhhh..... I meant latex (guess I had silicon on my brain for some reason)

It looks like my latex tubing is actually a little under 3/16" ID but a little over 2/16" (or 1/8") ID so that may be why it was extra hard to push it on the tire valves. Wonder how I got such weird size? (it was something available locally) At least it won't leak!

I premixed my perlite and turface and then loaded it into the top bucket. I made a stand that holds the top bucket with tail pipe and that sits in my wash basin and then I rinsed each container of media before I put the plant in.

the 3/16" id tubing from that 4fishin place fits perfectly. cheap too. a 10' piece of black can do 40 connections.

the way you're handling the turface and perlite is probably ok, i'm just a little paranoid after seeing that plug form from the dust.

when you rinse medium like turface or perlite from the top and are not turning the material over a lot of fines get trapped in the undersides of the particles.

your observation on the dust coming out of the sidewall holes is graphic evidence of water pushing air around. it pushes air out ahead of the pulse and then draws it in behind the pulse. a breath.

if you are using 64 oz's of pulse volume then you are displacing 64 oz's of air volume every time you pulse. then replenishing that air as the pulse subsides.

in a 3.5 gal bucket that is approx 14% of the volume. if you were to use an even 3 gals of medium that's 16.6 % of the volume.

we know that approx 35 % of the medium is air pore space. 35% of 3 gals is 1.05 gals. this is total air pore space capacity.

if we then move 64 oz's through the medium we are displacing approx 1/2 of the total air in the medium each time the pulse hits.

this is an effect you cannot get with a drip. with a drip there is a supersaturated column maintained as long as the drip is running. this is static. therefore it uniformly occupies pore space that could be used for additional root volume. air type roots will not grow into a saturated area.

 

[stagehand099]

Let the fun begin!

Let the fun begin!

1

 

[stagehand099]

A new technique to start the new year. Just what I needed to get out of my grow rut. But, I've never ever done Hydro or anything close in 13 years of fooling around with growing. I'm ready to up my game and pictures don't lie, your tech is amazing. I'll be asking a lot of questions around here, but I'll try to find the answers in the thread, first, and not be a pain in the ass.

So I'm hoping for 7-8 of these jars per girl and I ain't taking "no" fer an answer!

stagehand

ps: NOT looking forward to drilling 300 holes.........

 

[stagehand099]

Hey D9, first Q: Since I can't source rice hulls locally and I don't want to have a 50 lb bag shipped from Cali to the S.E. USA, let me tell you what I have, can get and maybe you could help me with a mix thats porous enough. I have 2 5 kg blocks of coco already. Its GH's brand and I have no experience with coco so have no idea of quality or particle size of (Cocotek)this stuff. I have 4 cf of coarse perlite right now and I can get Turface MVP locally as well. Thanks.

stagehand


edit:
Hey nevermind, I remember some post(s) where you said 3-1-1 coco-perlite-turface. I'll try that and see what happens......

 

[stagehand099]

Thought I'd show a pic of my new cool little RO unit. Countertop and hooks up to the sink faucet with a snap coupler. Turns out 5 ppm water. I dig it. Also a pic of the last shuttle launch earlier this year. That was on my bucket list to watch live for about 25 years......

stagehand

 

[petemoss]

...
...

this is an effect you cannot get with a drip. with a drip there is a supersaturated column maintained as long as the drip is running. this is static. therefore it uniformly occupies pore space that could be used for additional root volume. air type roots will not grow into a saturated area.

Very good point, D9! I'm trying to encourage air roots to grow in a fast RDWC setup. It will be a bucket within a bucket and the inner bucket will be filled with hydroton top fed with a 1/4" open tube. I hope the top fed nute solution will uniformly film down through the clay balls and not flow down in a static stream as you described. Perhaps I can replace the open ended drip tube with a ring of soaker hose to disperse the flow.

 

[delta9nxs]

First of all I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread. It is an incredible thread with tons of information. I am not suggesting changing the system at all, just talking about possible ideas to grow even larger trees. I had some ideas and was hoping to get feedback:

Container –
Looking at the root balls in ppk, they fill the entire 5 gallon buckets. Also the roots seem to be denser towards the top of the container. One person made a comment saying that the roots were so thick on top that it took a while for the water to soak into the media. So having a larger diameter bucket/container would let those roots spread out more and absorb nutrients. . I wouldn’t say they are root bound, but maybe a larger container would help.

I don’t believe we want to increase the height to much since we want to be able to wick nutrients from the reservoir. I believe 14-20 inch height is perfect depending on what media you’re using. According to this article http://www.cvios.com/perlite_article.htm perlite wicks pretty good up to 8 inches.

So maybe something like this would work http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Plasti...5791222&sr=1-5 22” in diameter and 18” height.
I have 30 gallon drums I am going to use, but they are too tall. Since I am using such a tall container, do you think it would slow down growth if I didn’t create a reservoir and wick. But instead did it more hempy style?

Media –
I am going to use horticultural perlite this time, but I am concerned about compacting. I would think ideally you would want the media to wick, drain freely, have good oxygenation and not compact.
Perlite - would work great since it has good capillary action and would wick half way up. Chunky perlite would drain better but wouldn’t be as good at wicking. Of course perlite compacts.
Rice Hulls – have fantastic drainage and doesn’t compact like perlite. But it doesn’t wick as well.
I am not sure it is a good idea to have uneven soil, but I was thinking of horticultural perlite on the bottom and chunky perlite or rice hulls on the top.

Top/pulse feeding-
If I have a larger container and the media doesn’t have a strong capillary action, I would think having even distribution to be even more important. I was thinking of using 3/8” tubing and making 2 or 3 rings. Drilling 1/8” holes in the tubing to give an even spread of nutrients. I could connect them with 4 way and tees (I already have the john guest fittings).

Thanks again for such a great thread...
*


hi chennemann, welcome! Thanks for your interest! Your discussions about containers and media are all valid but have been covered extensively earlier in the thread.

Your pulse distribution idea is as good as mine or anyone else's here as this is particularly difficult to achieve in a uniform fashion.

How large of a plant do you want to grow? And how much light are we talking about?

The largest plant I have grown to date yielded 22.43 oz's of dry bud and was 5.5-6' across and 5.5' high. It was grown in a 3.5 gal bucket.

so, realistically, unless you intend to grow a larger plant than that the larger containers and additional medium won't help much.

As this thread has progressed I have tried to shape everything towards ease of construction and maintain a “commercial” perspective on use of materials, container volume, and nutrient use.

I invite you to build one just as you see it here. Do a few grows with it. And then if you have ideas that you feel will improve it, you can do so with experience.

This thing works, not just well, but extremely well. It will produce high quality medicine in the hands of a complete neophyte or an experienced hydro head.

We will be happy to help you produce your meds.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey D9, first Q: Since I can't source rice hulls locally and I don't want to have a 50 lb bag shipped from Cali to the S.E. USA, let me tell you what I have, can get and maybe you could help me with a mix thats porous enough. I have 2 5 kg blocks of coco already. Its GH's brand and I have no experience with coco so have no idea of quality or particle size of (Cocotek)this stuff. I have 4 cf of coarse perlite right now and I can get Turface MVP locally as well. Thanks.

stagehand


edit:
Hey nevermind, I remember some post(s) where you said 3-1-1 coco-perlite-turface. I'll try that and see what happens......

howdy, just wanted to add here that everybody might have a familiar source of rice hulls right under their noses.

cool little ro filter. if you run it into a drum with a float valve you can let it collect 24/7.

i broke my ph pen and needed another one so i went to the "grow" store for it. well, this grow store also sells beer making shit. i saw these 5 lb bags of rice hulls in the beer area and ask the guy about it. they use it all the time he said and proceeded to show me the same bale i bought from the horse guy. i asked if he would sell whole bales and he said sure and came back with a price just under what you would have to pay to have one shipped. i had no idea they used them for beer making.

 

[delta9nxs]

Thought I'd show a pic of my new cool little RO unit. Countertop and hooks up to the sink faucet with a snap coupler. Turns out 5 ppm water. I dig it. Also a pic of the last shuttle launch earlier this year. That was on my bucket list to watch live for about 25 years......

stagehand

yeah, you really don't need a big filter, a small one running 24/7 into a drum with a float valve will keep you supplied.

must be a rush strapped into that shuttle on lift off.

 

[delta9nxs]

Very good point, D9! I'm trying to encourage air roots to grow in a fast RDWC setup. It will be a bucket within a bucket and the inner bucket will be filled with hydroton top fed with a 1/4" open tube. I hope the top fed nute solution will uniformly film down through the clay balls and not flow down in a static stream as you described. Perhaps I can replace the open ended drip tube with a ring of soaker hose to disperse the flow.

hey, pete! good to hear from you! sounds interesting! if you start a thread please let me know.

regards, d9