Where is CBD produced?

[shmalphy]

Is CBD produced in the capitate stalked trichomes, like THC, or is it somewhere else? For example, in a high CBD strain, what are the methods for making a hash that preserves the qualities of the strain?

I know that with bubble some size heads give different effects from the same strain, especially on hybrids.

I have always been under the impression that CBD was a fat soluble oil in the plant, and THC was in the trichomes, based on the fact that I have made cannabutter from material that was "hashed" and it produced a much sleepier, narcotic effect, hence I figured this was from the CBD, or residual THC that had degraded to CBD. This was my assumption based on my limited info at the time from reading Jorge's book.

I have searched and found outdated info on the subject, and with the new research about CBD, I was hoping someone could lead me in the right direction for furthur reading.

 

[KiefSweat]

its genetic.

Unless you have a mixed phenotype, your hash has very little if any cbd in it.

 

[highonmt]

Is CBD produced in the capitate stalked trichomes, like THC, or is it somewhere else? For example, in a high CBD strain, what are the methods for making a hash that preserves the qualities of the strain?

I know that with bubble some size heads give different effects from the same strain, especially on hybrids.

I have always been under the impression that CBD was a fat soluble oil in the plant, and THC was in the trichomes, based on the fact that I have made cannabutter from material that was "hashed" and it produced a much sleepier, narcotic effect, hence I figured this was from the CBD, or residual THC that had degraded to CBD. This was my assumption based on my limited info at the time from reading Jorge's book.

I have searched and found outdated info on the subject, and with the new research about CBD, I was hoping someone could lead me in the right direction for furthur reading.

Both cbd and thc are fat soluable and produced throughout the plant, they are produced by essentially the same enzyme system just differentiated by a final enzyme. CBN is the degredation product of thc you are probably thinking of. The concentrations of thc are highest in the trichomes which are modified plant hairs designed to protect the plant from predators or environment. To get the whole cannabinoid profile just make bho or use my favorite supercritical co2 for the ultimate experience. I love supercritical co2 extraction as the waxes pulled by butane are less prevelent and the flavor and effect are insanely clean.

 

[shmalphy]

its genetic.

Unless you have a mixed phenotype, your hash has very little if any cbd in it.

My question is, if you have a high cbd strain, and collect the trichome heads, will they be high cbd, or will there be a lower amount of trichomes because they are all THC.

Also, it is CBN I was thinking of. All these years I have focused on THC and terpenes, never really looked too far into the properties other cannabinoids. I fig'd I would start here, hoping to be directed to some recent articles.

 

[Hammerhead]

They grow separately but in the same area as THC. They do not have stalks on them. If you look under a scope you can see them they have small heads with no stalks. If you removed allot of the THC you would have a high CBD smoke. CBD is not psychoactive it is a anti inflammatory.

 

[shmalphy]

So in theory at least, a high cbd strain would produce hash on one layer of an 8 bag kit with the cbd rich trichomes, as long as they manage to break off of the leaf, which in theory would require more agitation because there is no stalk so the bond with the leaf will be tighter.

I am just curious how introducing high cbd strains will affect hash production, and is there a way to get a non psychoactive hash to concentrate the anti inflammatory effects of these strains, or as I have always suspected, you can harvest the THC off the buds as bubble hash and then the dissolve the CBD into cannabutter because the CBD sticks to the leaves more, and hence requires some form of solvent to be extracted.

 

[Hammerhead]

I dont think we have the means to remove only CBD. in a lab im sure they could do that. those guys beat the plant to get hash. I dont think there getting much CBD out of it. The concentration of CBD even in strains that are high in CBD is so small that it would take allot of material to get something..

 

[KiefSweat]

i think the only way to know would be to chemically test it.

maybe harvesting at different times as the biosyth in the plant takes different times to react. but since its the same mechanism in the plant i would assume the trichomes don't differ much between thc and cbd.

 

[G.O. Joe]

The cells in the trichomes make what they are told to make. This is a small enzyme difference, from a small genetic difference. Is it just that simple? Yes. Ditchweed trichomes and AK47 trichomes are the same. In cannabinoid-free plants, the trichomes are normal except they lack the volume that would be filled by cannabinoids.

No mechanism is known for making and storing cannabinoids and terpenes, except in certain trichomes.

 

[hashcat88]

They grow separately but in the same area as THC. They do not have stalks on them. If you look under a scope you can see them they have small heads with no stalks. If you removed allot of the THC you would have a high CBD smoke. CBD is not psychoactive it is a anti inflammatory.

i dont know about this. those head you see are "sessile trichomes" or immature trichomes that havent grown a stalk, and are low in both thc and cbd

i would assume cbd is produced in the trichomes heads like thc is..but i dunno

 

[highonmt]

They grow separately but in the same area as THC. They do not have stalks on them. If you look under a scope you can see them they have small heads with no stalks. If you removed allot of the THC you would have a high CBD smoke. CBD is not psychoactive it is a anti inflammatory.

I know that there are sessile and stalked glandular bodies some think it is merely different developmental stages, but I have never heard that they produce different cannabinoids, I would be really suprised if they did. Do you have a reference or some thing else to back up this assertion. All the studies I have seen indicate there are several cannabinoids produced in the glandular trichomes of the cannabis plant. The relative quantities of which are strain dependant. The cannabinoid content is higher in the stalked trichs but the sessile glands still contain both cbd and thc along with the other cannabiniods. HM

 

[Terpene]

In my experience, if its covered in frost, it will be higher in cbd, but thc and cbd develop side by side. - and I base this claim on absolutely nothing scientific

My harlequin is absolutely covered in trichomes and does so from a very early age, but has nearly nothing for thc content. My grinder's screen made lots of great Harlequin hash. Smoking the hash was basically a slightly more "high" version of the Harlequin high - a nose-down, total body, somewhat warm, relaxed feeling similar to being in a jacuzzi. Total muscular pain relief, menstrual cramps, upset stomach, etc. Zero head high (somewhat disappointing), maybe a rookie smoker might see a *slight* high. This leads me to believe that the CBD content is found in the trichomes. Here's a shot at about 25 days in to give ya an idea.

 

[highonmt]

The cells in the trichomes make what they are told to make. This is a small enzyme difference, from a small genetic difference. Is it just that simple? Yes. Ditchweed trichomes and AK47 trichomes are the same. In cannabinoid-free plants, the trichomes are normal except they lack the volume that would be filled by cannabinoids.

No mechanism is known for making and storing cannabinoids and terpenes, except in certain trichomes.

Don't really get you on this one there are no 'cannabinoid free' cannabis plants in existence of which I am aware. Even the ditch weed hemp on the powerline at my grandad's farm produce cannabinoids, but not much thc I can tell you that for certain. Beyond that you assert that volume is the difference but the actual difference is the presence of thc synthase in one plants trichs and not the others. A high trichome density and large glands would indicate a more cannabinoid rich strain of course but simply stating that the trichs are not filled is incorrect imo. Here is a link to some good info on the structure and function of trichs from that lucky hoosier Mahlberg.

TERPENE interesting theory but again I would hesitate making generalizations about this genus it always has some cultivar that is an outlier, like the grapfriut haze, or the purple wreck which we grow both send you to orbit and give you tics if you smoke too much and are every bit as covered in glands as that beautiful picture you posted.
HM

 

[Corpsey]

^^^^^^^^
I'll second that, i have 1 harlequin in flower and i have smoked it before and that is exactly right. it is pretty good with pain too.
It's also happened to me before with other genetics, 1 pheno out of 3 was silly frosted, but was the weakest of head high of all of them.

 

[Hammerhead]

Nope just articles I have read on the net and discussions with people about it. You will find more CBD in the leaf then you will in the buds. Most of the leaf matter does not contain much THC. I have no scientific proof you guys can decide for yourselves.. Here is a Artificial I found


How To Get More CBD

The first method is only available to those lucky people who grow their own. By delaying harvest until a greater percentage of the trichomes turn amber, you’ll allow the THC to start degrading to CBN, and the combination of CBD and CBN has much more of a CBD-like physical effect than CBD with THC.
Also for people who grow: it turns out that (according to a well-known NorCal baker named Uncle Buck) the leaves of a plant have more CBD than the buds. That’s borne out by the fact that back in the 60s (at least in NYC where I lived at the time), virtually all we saw was dried, crushed leaves, and when we got stoned we couldn’t move! You can get the same effect by using stems and leaves for cooking or making QWISO hash.


But wait, there’s more. It turns out that Dr. William Courtney (a so-called “pot doctor” who actually does serious research on the matter) recommends eating raw leaves to many people for medical reasons. And of course, eating marijuana, or carefully cooking with it, will guarantee that you get virtually complete availability of all the important compounds in it. Heck…smoking it is going to burn out half the good stuff at random…it’s about the worst way to consume it there is! (Real “pros” either use edibles or vaporizers these days).
And that brings us to the third way of increasing your CBD intake. If you have a vaporizer with a digital temperature readout, you can actually decide to “boil off” the THC and leave the CBD alone¹.

THC will begin to boil and vaporize at only 150° to 157°C (302° to 315°F), while CBD waits until somewhere around 160° to 188°C (depending on who you believe), which corresponds to 320° to 370°F. So if you set your vaporizer to 160°C/320°F, your THC will be vaporizing…you can inhale it or wait for it to dissipate. After the cannabis changes color to brown, you can crank up the temperature setting above 188°C/370°F and now inhale the CBD, with far less of a “high”. You’re essENTially now performing fractional distillation…it’s the same way they make fine brandy…and gasoline!


And you can do the same thing when cooking. Many recipes call for cooking with cannabis at 350°F (or 325° “just in case” your oven isn’t calibrated). They warn you to keep the temperature that low “so you won’t hurt the THC”. Yet either temperature is far above the vaporization point of THC, which is precisely why “pot brownies” have such a legendary “stoned effect” on people: you’re getting all CBD. That’s why my recent experimENT with cooking firecrackers at low temperature (250°F) was so devastatingly effective…it left everything in.The last method of getting higher CBD is being aware of the strain of cannabis you’re using. It generally comes in two basic types: Indica and Sativa. Sativas tend to have higher THC (mind) effects, and Indicas have higher CBD (body) effects. Therefore, if CBD is what you’re after, Indicas should be your goal…in general.


But the high CBD strains I’ve seen, for whatever horticultural reason, are actually Sativas. For instance, Harlequin, which is generally available at SPARC, is 6.5% THC and 8.5% CBD. I’ve also gotten some Omrita RX3, which (according to Abby on the MassSpec) is just 5.5% THC and an astounding 10% CBD. I usually take two hits on my MFLB to start feeling any head effects; with Omrita it took 4 hits to feel that (makes perfect sense by the THC percentage). It doesn’t make me feel “numb” at all, but all pain just magically…goes…away.
¹If you use a more basic vaporizer, like I do, you can get the same effect by using your ABV/AVB (the residual weed left over after vaping) for cooking. It’s had the THC removed already.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Don't really get you on this one there are no 'cannabinoid free' cannabis plants in existence of which I am aware. Even the ditch weed hemp on the powerline at my grandad's farm produce cannabinoids, but not much thc I can tell you that for certain. Beyond that you assert that volume is the difference but the actual difference is the presence of thc synthase in one plants trichs and not the others. A high trichome density and large glands would indicate a more cannabinoid rich strain of course but simply stating that the trichs are not filled is incorrect imo.

You think I just pull what I say from my ass, while I think my posts somewhat thoughtful. Hm.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10681-009-9894-7

Cannabinoid-free segregants resulting from backcrosses with high content drug clones had stalked glandular trichomes in normal densities, but the trichome heads were dull and much smaller than those of their high cannabinoid content sister plants. Nevertheless, the trichomes of cannabinoid-free segregants appear to be functional metabolic organs. Chemical comparison of contrasting segregant bulks did not reveal big differences in the content and composition of volatile terpenes, the production of which requires functional trichomes. The absence of cannabinoids is probably the cause of the small trichome heads, rather than being a result of them.

 

[Chimera]

So much mis-info in such a short thread!

G.O Joe is correct, there certainly are cannabinoid free plants (chemotype V). There are a series of different mutations that lead to this chemotype, non-functional versions of the geranylpyrophosphatelivetolate geranyltransferase (GOT) enzyme lead to this chemotype, as do certain upstream mutations in other terpene synthesis pathways that lead up to olivetolic acid (OA) and divarinic acid (DA) respectively. Of course, mutations in the trichome transcription factors and trichome specific genes can also lead to the null-cannabinoid chemotype- where no trichs are produced, no cannabinoids can be present.

Cannabinoids are synthesized in glandular trichomes, both capitate stalked and sessile. However sessile glands produce more CBC than the capitate-stalked trichomes, which produce more CBD and THC. There is definite involvement in the amount of light that the plant receives and the development of more capitate-stalked glandular trichomes that produce CBD and THC, my hypothesis is via an up-regulation of CHS, which has been proven to be inducible in other species by factors such as increased UV.

Vegetative flowering plants do produce glandular trichomes and thus cannabinoids, however do so in much lower amounts than we see in flowers.

Separating trichomes from leaf material via dry-sifting or resin separation via bubblebags etc will not separate CBD and THC- they are produced in the same structures. Also, people believe that the 'heavy' effect is due to CBD, and OFTEN ASSUME that their cannabis is high in CBD because it makes them lethargic and tired- this is completely FALSE. The lethargic effect is due to specific terpenes, and has very little to do with the cannabinoids.

Hope that clarifies somewhat,
-Chimera

 

[Chimera]

Yet either temperature is far above the vaporization point of THC, which is precisely why “pot brownies” have such a legendary “stoned effect” on people: you’re getting all CBD.

That's simply untrue.

You get "higher" from 1g of cannabis cooked into food for a host of reasons, that have nothing to do with CBD.

When you smoke, you might capture %20 of the cannabinoids, of which only a fraction is in the decarboxylated THC form, the rest is in its innactive THCA form. When you cook food with cannabis, especially baked foods where the products are more evenly heated over time, the majority of the THCA is decarboxylated into THC and thus available for pharmacological activity in the body. This explains the fact that you get higher from eating a gram of cannabis cooked into food, than if you were to smoke the same gram.

Secondly, when you eat cannabis it passes through your liver where it is converted to 11-hydroxy-THC before arriving at sites of action in your brain and CNS. The fact that 11-hydroxy-THC is a more potent agonist of the cannabinoid receptor, and the separate fact that the 11-hydroxy-THC more readily crosses the blood brain barrier, all play in concert to give the feeling that you are 'higher'.

This fact holds true for high THC cannabis which contains no CBD, which nullifies the supposition that the stoned effect is due to the effects of CBD.

-Chimera

 

[highonmt]

You think I just pull what I say from my ass, while I think my posts somewhat thoughtful. Hm.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10681-009-9894-7

NO or I would have told you that you'd pulled it from your ass. I was not aware of the existence of this mutant cannabis chemotype. Sort of a cannabino lol. Please no need to assume hostility just inform others of what you know. Didn't I just make a comment about ass umtions about this genus... Chimera thanks great informative posts k plus Cheers,
HM

 

[Hammerhead]

I did not write that It was a cut and paste from the net as my post indicated

That's simply untrue.

You get "higher" from 1g of cannabis cooked into food for a host of reasons, that have nothing to do with CBD.

When you smoke, you might capture %20 of the cannabinoids, of which only a fraction is in the decarboxylated THC form, the rest is in its innactive THCA form. When you cook food with cannabis, especially baked foods where the products are more evenly heated over time, the majority of the THCA is decarboxylated into THC and thus available for pharmacological activity in the body. This explains the fact that you get higher from eating a gram of cannabis cooked into food, than if you were to smoke the same gram.

Secondly, when you eat cannabis it passes through your liver where it is converted to 11-hydroxy-THC before arriving at sites of action in your brain and CNS. The fact that 11-hydroxy-THC is a more potent agonist of the cannabinoid receptor, and the separate fact that the 11-hydroxy-THC more readily crosses the blood brain barrier, all play in concert to give the feeling that you are 'higher'.

This fact holds true for high THC cannabis which contains no CBD, which nullifies the supposition that the stoned effect is due to the effects of CBD.

-Chimera