Oh and the regular ballasts you were looking at are the much cheaper SS X's - the SS I's are much better (though they're 40% more expensive) I must admit I forget why, though. I think reliability, heat dissipation, etc. I did a lot of research years ago, when I first bought them. You can get those for $130 new, inc. shipping. The ebay shipping was $50, so that's $150 total.
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Electronic or Standard Ballast - PLEASE Help Me Decide!!!
- Thread starter Stealthy
- Start date
SweetIndica2
Member
coolx- pure BS. It's all in your mind if you think a 750w digi gives off more light than a 1000w magnetic, you do realize that those statistics that the companies use to market their ballast are usually bs, or extremely exxagerated. There have been several threads on here proving that digi's do not give off any more light, and only use slightly less power. Are you just assuming it gives off more light, or did you actually use some type of light meter and have proof to back up your statement? And the 15% yield increase i'd like to see proof on that also, anything can have an effect on yield. You can grow 2 plants from one strain, and end up with one pheno that yields half of what the other one does, that doesn't mean that it was the light that had the effect on that yield. The bulb degradation may be true, but that's only if your constantly turning off your light and then turning it right back on. This won't effect most people, because who is going to be constantly hotstarting their ballast constantly? Not to mention, that you should replace the bulb every few grows anyways.
got to love the 45 dollar shiping on a 90 dollar ballist.
go to a store and buy a digi. youll be able to exchange it if problems arrise.
go to a store and buy a digi. youll be able to exchange it if problems arrise.
pumpkin2006
Member
There ya go. Simply put again Amps X voltage = watts and magnetics always have a higher amperage, thus putting out more light.
pumpkin2006,
If you're just comparing input power and correlating that to light output, you are missing an important variable... efficiency !
Magnetic ballasts are not as efficient as electronic ballasts.
This is clearly evident based on the fact that they generate far more heat.
Heat is a power loss , plain and simple.
Electronic ballasts are roughly 5 to 8 % more efficient than magnetic ballasts.
Do they produce more light ? well that's debatable , I've read that they may produce a little more , but they do have a significant advantage , longer bulb life.
I'm not a fan of electronic ballasts yet, as they still aren't mature enough for my liking. They've had since '98 to perfect it and they still haven't. Too many shortcuts in the designs. They are still using PFM as opposed to PPM which would really be much better way to go if using switching freq. over 4 KHz.
Each companies ballast generally needs to be "programmed" with specific parameters for each different type of bulb. ( by that I mean each manufacturers bulbs like grolux, or son-t or agrosun , hortilux blue etc.) Every bulb will have different "needs" that the ballasts must account for . Like where the acoustic resonances occur, the igintion voltage , the startup curve etc.) Magnetic ballasts are simple and work ! They avoid all the bad stuff by operating a 60/50Hz , and in general will power what ever bulb you put in them as long as they were designed for that type of bulb. (Be it MH, CMH, Pulse start, HPS)
Electronic ballasts in general will not work well with CMH bulbs like the mastercolor because the frequencies they operate at magically find the AR regions and quickly destroy the bulbs. Only the GE low freq. squarewave ballasts are suited for that type of bulb. Of course if the Electronic ballast manufactures weren't so lazy and implemented PPM ( Fixed frequency pulse Phase Modulation) instead of PFM ( Pulse frequency modulation) they could avoid the AR minefield that is in a typical MH and easily avoid the narrow AR regions in HPS bulbs. ( Acoustic resonances are related to the shape of the arc tube , in that I mean the specific dimensions of the arc tube)
Right now my Lumatek and Galaxy ballasts are nice door stops while I run the Mastercolor with my SSI ballast that is alittle warm and buzzes a little but will work tomorrow and the next day and the next day ..... instead of just crapping out when ever it feels like it .
Sorry for the rant but quite frankly I have zero confidence in the current crop of designers /manufacturers .
Of course this is just my humble opinion.
SB7
If you're just comparing input power and correlating that to light output, you are missing an important variable... efficiency !
Magnetic ballasts are not as efficient as electronic ballasts.
This is clearly evident based on the fact that they generate far more heat.
Heat is a power loss , plain and simple.
Electronic ballasts are roughly 5 to 8 % more efficient than magnetic ballasts.
Do they produce more light ? well that's debatable , I've read that they may produce a little more , but they do have a significant advantage , longer bulb life.
I'm not a fan of electronic ballasts yet, as they still aren't mature enough for my liking. They've had since '98 to perfect it and they still haven't. Too many shortcuts in the designs. They are still using PFM as opposed to PPM which would really be much better way to go if using switching freq. over 4 KHz.
Each companies ballast generally needs to be "programmed" with specific parameters for each different type of bulb. ( by that I mean each manufacturers bulbs like grolux, or son-t or agrosun , hortilux blue etc.) Every bulb will have different "needs" that the ballasts must account for . Like where the acoustic resonances occur, the igintion voltage , the startup curve etc.) Magnetic ballasts are simple and work ! They avoid all the bad stuff by operating a 60/50Hz , and in general will power what ever bulb you put in them as long as they were designed for that type of bulb. (Be it MH, CMH, Pulse start, HPS)
Electronic ballasts in general will not work well with CMH bulbs like the mastercolor because the frequencies they operate at magically find the AR regions and quickly destroy the bulbs. Only the GE low freq. squarewave ballasts are suited for that type of bulb. Of course if the Electronic ballast manufactures weren't so lazy and implemented PPM ( Fixed frequency pulse Phase Modulation) instead of PFM ( Pulse frequency modulation) they could avoid the AR minefield that is in a typical MH and easily avoid the narrow AR regions in HPS bulbs. ( Acoustic resonances are related to the shape of the arc tube , in that I mean the specific dimensions of the arc tube)
Right now my Lumatek and Galaxy ballasts are nice door stops while I run the Mastercolor with my SSI ballast that is alittle warm and buzzes a little but will work tomorrow and the next day and the next day ..... instead of just crapping out when ever it feels like it .
Sorry for the rant but quite frankly I have zero confidence in the current crop of designers /manufacturers .
Of course this is just my humble opinion.
SB7
Last edited:
UltimateWarrior
Member
Thank you SB7 for that frank break down on ballasts cause I was torn on which to choose but from reading this and looking at how much money I like to keep in my bank account I'm going to get an ole' faithful.
Stealthy, I don't think I was talking about the switchable ones ... as it is, I do seem to be mistaken anyway, the 1,000 MH are $169, hps $199, switchable $209 .. how the hell did I get $130? too many late nights probably ... anway, not mistaken about the lumatek 750 price still $230.Stealthy said:
Anyway, these are the best prices I've found online anywhere, esp. when it's all free shippng (you were going to pay $100 for your ballast and then $45 for shipping!) - just don't buy the nutes from this site!! Way expensive.
http://www.smartcart.com/bobglenn/c...NG_FOR_GREENHOUSES_AND_HYDROPONICS+:+BALLASTS
Oh, the site is http://www.seedsetc.com - I took out the link cos it's in a frame, and the ballasts are hard to find - lousy site set up, but great prices - plus he'll deal if you buy a lot.
SweetIndica2 said:
Not in my mind at all (though I do have a rather large head - never can get a hat to fit) ... I have a HydroFarm lightmeter and I measured the light - I never, never go by any marketing materials anywhere (are you kidding?!) or even what people say here (I automatically assume 90% is crap or what someone's heard from someone else who doesn't know etc., the trick is finding which 10% is good advice), or even in the hydro store (my local guy's been giving telling people some crap recently - with good intentions, but still wrong). I always do tons of research on everything. [kinda sucks though when I contribute to the 90% crap!! see above re price]
I get waaaay more light from my 750's .. OK, from my 1,000W's at 30", I got 3,400fc with a new bulb and 2,500fc with a used one after I think 2 grows - either one or two, must be 2, it'd be real bad if it was just one. With my 750's I get - wait a minute, I'll go measure - OK - I got 3,200 at 30" and that's after 2 grows on the same bulb (and that's thru cloudy, dirty glass - too lazy to take the metal tape off to clean it). So that's almost exactly 95% of a 1,000 just as claimed (and I'm not making this up) PLUS the bulb hasn't degraded.
So that's not waaaay more light if you have a new bulb with a new 1,000, but it sure is if you don't want to keep changing the bulb every grow. And you don't have to hot start a bulb on a reg. ballast for it to degrade. Every day it comes on it degrades a bit.
And my 15% is based on .... changing a bulb every 3 grows and bulb degradation after 3 grows being 30% (that's the standard assumption, mine was worse, that after only 2 grows) = 15% average over that period. Plus you're using 25% less power. Or if you change your bulb every grow you'd only get 5% extra total light, or every 2 grows you'd get 10% extra.
Of course, it isn't a given that increase in light has a linear relationship to the yield - ie 10% more light gives 10% more yield, but over a certain range that is probably close. Of course I'm assuming everything else is equal - I did a lot of experiments at college and know about confounding variables and how to conduct an experiment, so obviously 2 plants of diff. phenos is meaningless.
Last edited:
oh, and I just want to point out I've had 10 dig ballasts for 8 months and never had a single problem with anything anytime. I guess it's just luck of the draw .... or lots of research (I think i do 3 hours research a day!! gotta get a life) - I read about 10-20 forums and tons of threads on the potential problems with different bulbs etc., before I decided on the Lumatek 750's. Couldn't be happier. And I have the original silver ones - these supposedly were where they're first model design that didn't have any RF interference - they copied that design to the 2nd gen. blue 600's. Hope that makes sense - it's late, I'm tired.
SweetIndica2
Member
I'd like to see proof, like pics maybe. Theres no way a 750w digital gives off 95% of what a 1000w magnetic does. It's plain facts.
howdy
i like my reg ballast, yes it puts out a little more heat but thats ok with me i have that covered.
still not sold on the ele ballast as of yet, like with anything new ill wait till the bugs are worked out of them 1st. i know the 2bulb ele ballast i have in the garage does interfer with our cordless phone but just with in a few seet of it.
peace
edit: the 2 bulb is just a shop lite35-40 watt.
i like my reg ballast, yes it puts out a little more heat but thats ok with me i have that covered.
still not sold on the ele ballast as of yet, like with anything new ill wait till the bugs are worked out of them 1st. i know the 2bulb ele ballast i have in the garage does interfer with our cordless phone but just with in a few seet of it.
peace
edit: the 2 bulb is just a shop lite35-40 watt.
Last edited:
What plain facts are you talking about? And pics of what? There is no way to prove anything - a pic of a light meter next to a tape, next to a ballast saying 750 showing the cord all the way to the socket?!SweetIndica2 said:
Anyway, I'm not interesting in proving anything to you - I know what I measured. If you don't believe me, that's fine with me. That's the lumens on my ballast with my bulb and I'm happy.
SweetIndica2
Member
Your right, i don't believe you. I have seen several threads proving that they do not give off any more light, and infact only use slightly less power, your talking 5-8% at most.
If your 750w gives off 95% of what a 1000w magnetic does, then that would mean the 750w gives off 137,750 lumens (basing this on an average 145,00 lumen 1000w bulb). That would mean that there is a 24-25% difference in lumen per watt rating, which i find very hard to believe.
And then on top of that your claiming you also save power? i'd love to see your bs claim here. So, your claiming your ballast gives off 25% more lumens, AND uses less power than a normal 750w would (if they made them). Whats that i smell?
If your 750w gives off 95% of what a 1000w magnetic does, then that would mean the 750w gives off 137,750 lumens (basing this on an average 145,00 lumen 1000w bulb). That would mean that there is a 24-25% difference in lumen per watt rating, which i find very hard to believe.
And then on top of that your claiming you also save power? i'd love to see your bs claim here. So, your claiming your ballast gives off 25% more lumens, AND uses less power than a normal 750w would (if they made them). Whats that i smell?
NO - can't you read? We/I were talking about the diff. between 750 dig and 1,000W reg. so I wrote I got ~95% of the light of my 1,000W w/ my 750W dig. and I used less power, so obviously I was saying that a 750W dig. uses less power THAN A 1,000W BALLAST, NOT a normal 750W, cos you're right in at least one thing, they don't make those! I guess your eyes are as screwed as your sense of smell!SweetIndica2 said:
I've got nothing to prove - don't work for any company - just putting in my exp. and I have meters etc. So don't believe me, 's fine with me.
EDIT - I will say, I didn't measure the power usage of my 750's. I'm going by their rating and bghydro's power measurement. Also, when I originally measured my 1,000, the ballast wasn't brand new and the bulb was already maybe a few weeks old, so that could account for 2-4% maybe, but then also, my digis are 8 months old and so are my 750 bulbs so if we went there, I'm getting (3,500-2,400)/2,400 = 30% MORE light, comparing sim. aged bulbs.
Last edited:
I realize this thread is VERY old but..... for those who are interested.....
I'd like to see that experiment done again.... only this time replace the cap on your 1K hps ballast first..... I'm betting you see things in a whole new light.
Stay Safe!
coolx said:
I'd like to see that experiment done again.... only this time replace the cap on your 1K hps ballast first..... I'm betting you see things in a whole new light.
Stay Safe!
I couldnt see the listing cause it has expired. i have electronic only cause its what i could get at the time. if i was to do it over,id stay with magnetics.
why? cause there rock solid dependaple you can open em up and fix em . last ya bout 10 yrs b4 they buzz like hell. so there not as bright they also dont burn out bulbs as fast and light all bulbs . i know if i get more,it will be magnetics.
if you are going with sun system,id go with the sun 1. dont waste money on those cheapys. there chinese,not wound is tight and will buzz and fry out in no time. personally id go with pl lighting or another brand but i cant find pls anymore. anyone got a link?
why? cause there rock solid dependaple you can open em up and fix em . last ya bout 10 yrs b4 they buzz like hell. so there not as bright they also dont burn out bulbs as fast and light all bulbs . i know if i get more,it will be magnetics.
if you are going with sun system,id go with the sun 1. dont waste money on those cheapys. there chinese,not wound is tight and will buzz and fry out in no time. personally id go with pl lighting or another brand but i cant find pls anymore. anyone got a link?
nukklehead
Active member
peace........................
Been running ole ironside ( hydrofarm switchable 1k) for 6 years... due for a rebuild soon ... but absolutely no problems... when it comes to all ballasts you get what you pay for , for the most part.
I like to akin it to my 69 chevy pickup with 350 4 spd.. have to change the points and plugs alittle more often but that sob will
start every time...
Now the wifes modern honda is a great runner and much more efficient, but the computer seems to get in the way every now and
then..
Im an ole timer and as far as reliability goes , i will go with magnetic 6 days out of the week + sundays. As far as output,
Ill put the magnetic up against digis any day.. as far as heat
and efficiency... well you need to compromise at some point
adapt and overcome...
someday I will go digi.. but only when it can outdo my
ironhorse..
peace
Been running ole ironside ( hydrofarm switchable 1k) for 6 years... due for a rebuild soon ... but absolutely no problems... when it comes to all ballasts you get what you pay for , for the most part.
I like to akin it to my 69 chevy pickup with 350 4 spd.. have to change the points and plugs alittle more often but that sob will
start every time...
Now the wifes modern honda is a great runner and much more efficient, but the computer seems to get in the way every now and
then..
Im an ole timer and as far as reliability goes , i will go with magnetic 6 days out of the week + sundays. As far as output,
Ill put the magnetic up against digis any day.. as far as heat
and efficiency... well you need to compromise at some point
adapt and overcome...
someday I will go digi.. but only when it can outdo my
ironhorse..
peace
