Spurr's groundbreaking fert. mixes and methods (YouTube screen-cast and web site!)
- Thread starter spurr
- Start date
not to sound dense, but how are you determining the alkalinity of your water. do you just mean the base ppm?
also regarding this post..https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4708083&postcount=17
are you just mixing those raw mats into your reservoir or are you diluting them and mixing then mixing them? if so, what is the dilution ratio you are using? also what order are you mixing the nutrients in? sorry i'm just trying to put this in layman's terms for myself. don't have time to pore over the date to extract the info. i need, especially if your fielding questions. like many have said, i consider myself to be smart, but i'm not a genious..no delusions here.
are you just mixing those raw mats into your reservoir or are you diluting them and mixing then mixing them? if so, what is the dilution ratio you are using? also what order are you mixing the nutrients in? sorry i'm just trying to put this in layman's terms for myself. don't have time to pore over the date to extract the info. i need, especially if your fielding questions. like many have said, i consider myself to be smart, but i'm not a genious..no delusions here.
your right, if your mixtures work the way you say they will it will be on the market within a year, really wish you would do it and reap the rewards of all your hard work. respect.
@ iSMOKE.KUSH,
Nope, I didn't list the order to use each compound in this thread, great point. I listed that in the screencast video, but I forgot to do so here, thanks for pointing that out. Here is the relevant info:
(when not wishing to use Bru'n Water or UNH AlkCalc or HydroBuddy)
For direct addition to 100 liters:
(see this post: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4707360&postcount=2)
(see this post: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4707360&postcount=3)
Nope, I didn't list the order to use each compound in this thread, great point. I listed that in the screencast video, but I forgot to do so here, thanks for pointing that out. Here is the relevant info:
(when not wishing to use Bru'n Water or UNH AlkCalc or HydroBuddy)
For direct addition to 100 liters:
(see this post: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4707360&postcount=2)
1. fill reservoir with 95% of the volume of water needed
2. add potassium carbonate for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. Default amount for RO water is 0.096 g/L (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir)
3. add potassium silicate, as AgSil 16H it's 0.324 g/L for veg, 0.405 g/L for preflowering and then some ('early-flowering' stage), and 0.356 g/L for later-flowering.
4. add citric acid at 0.024 g/L for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. If the pH isn't 7.0, then add more until it is 7.0 (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir).
5. add 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for veg, 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for early-flowering, and 0.058 mL/L phosphoric acid (75% purity) for full-flowering (no sulfuric acid at that stage).
6. check pH and adjust if it's above ~6.3, use citric acid.
add fertilizer compounds (by weight) according to screenshots on page 1 (post #2).
7. start by adding calcium and magnesium rich compounds such as YaraLiva CalciNit and Epsom salt and magnesium nirate.
8. then add micro nutrient metals, such as FeDTPA, zinc, manganese, etc.
9. finally add fertilizer compounds rich in K and P. (the goal is to limit formation of P-Ca, P-Mg, etc., via citric acid affect the cations before P is added).
10. check pH and adjust if needed
11. add the remaining 5% volume of water
12. done.
For stock solutions:2. add potassium carbonate for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. Default amount for RO water is 0.096 g/L (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir)
3. add potassium silicate, as AgSil 16H it's 0.324 g/L for veg, 0.405 g/L for preflowering and then some ('early-flowering' stage), and 0.356 g/L for later-flowering.
4. add citric acid at 0.024 g/L for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. If the pH isn't 7.0, then add more until it is 7.0 (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir).
5. add 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for veg, 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for early-flowering, and 0.058 mL/L phosphoric acid (75% purity) for full-flowering (no sulfuric acid at that stage).
6. check pH and adjust if it's above ~6.3, use citric acid.
add fertilizer compounds (by weight) according to screenshots on page 1 (post #2).
7. start by adding calcium and magnesium rich compounds such as YaraLiva CalciNit and Epsom salt and magnesium nirate.
8. then add micro nutrient metals, such as FeDTPA, zinc, manganese, etc.
9. finally add fertilizer compounds rich in K and P. (the goal is to limit formation of P-Ca, P-Mg, etc., via citric acid affect the cations before P is added).
10. check pH and adjust if needed
11. add the remaining 5% volume of water
12. done.
(see this post: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4707360&postcount=3)
1. Make stock solutions A, B and C from screenshots in 3rd post of this thread (here). Notes on correctly making stock solutions can be found in the download from my web site and found in this thread (here).
2. fill reservoir with 95% of the volume of water needed
3. add potassium carbonate for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. Default amount for RO water is 0.096 g/L (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir)
4. add 10 mL/L of stock solution C for veg, 10 mL/L of stock solution C for early-flowering and stock solution C for full-flowering.
5. add citric acid at 0.024 g/L for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. If the pH isn't 7.0, then add more until it is 7.0 (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir).
6. add 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for veg, 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for early-flowering, and 0.058 mL/L phosphoric acid (75% purity) for full-flowering (no sulfuric acid at that stage).
7. check pH and adjust if it's above ~6.3, use citric acid.
8. add 10 mL/L of stock solution A for veg, 10 mL/L of stock solution A for early-flowering and stock solution A for full-flowering.
9. finally add 10 mL/L of stock solution B for veg, 10 mL/L of stock solution B for early-flowering and stock solution B for full-flowering. (the goal is to limit formation of P-Ca, P-Mg, etc., via citric acid affect the cations before P is added).
10. check pH and adjust if needed
11. add the remaining 5% volume of water
12. done
2. fill reservoir with 95% of the volume of water needed
3. add potassium carbonate for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. Default amount for RO water is 0.096 g/L (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir)
4. add 10 mL/L of stock solution C for veg, 10 mL/L of stock solution C for early-flowering and stock solution C for full-flowering.
5. add citric acid at 0.024 g/L for veg, early-flowering and full-flowering. If the pH isn't 7.0, then add more until it is 7.0 (make sure to pre-dissolve it in some water, then pour it into the reservoir).
6. add 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for veg, 0.081 mL/L sulfuric acid (35% purity) for early-flowering, and 0.058 mL/L phosphoric acid (75% purity) for full-flowering (no sulfuric acid at that stage).
7. check pH and adjust if it's above ~6.3, use citric acid.
8. add 10 mL/L of stock solution A for veg, 10 mL/L of stock solution A for early-flowering and stock solution A for full-flowering.
9. finally add 10 mL/L of stock solution B for veg, 10 mL/L of stock solution B for early-flowering and stock solution B for full-flowering. (the goal is to limit formation of P-Ca, P-Mg, etc., via citric acid affect the cations before P is added).
10. check pH and adjust if needed
11. add the remaining 5% volume of water
12. done
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Oh yea,
Make sure when making stock solutions to add 50% of the volume of water needed, i.e., 0.5 gallon. And warm the water to increase solubility of fertilizer compounds. Then add the salts (in the same order as above), then measure the new volume. Subtract the new volume (e.g., 0.55 gallon) from 1 gallon to find the final volume of water you need to add to finish the stock solution.
Make sure when making stock solutions to add 50% of the volume of water needed, i.e., 0.5 gallon. And warm the water to increase solubility of fertilizer compounds. Then add the salts (in the same order as above), then measure the new volume. Subtract the new volume (e.g., 0.55 gallon) from 1 gallon to find the final volume of water you need to add to finish the stock solution.
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Are you familiar with the difference between alkalinity and hardness? If not, I can post a link to a very good intro. They are two very different qualities of water, we are only concerned with alkalinity. We remove hardness via RO filter.
From various reports by folks I respect, it seems the avenge alkalinity (as ppm CaCO3) in most RO water is < 10 ppm. I used 5 ppm CaCO3 for default calculations as a best guess of average for most growers. Then I added the alkalinity (as ppm CaCO3) from the potassium carbonate (i.e,. 71 ppm CaCO3) to the starting 5 ppm CaCO3, for total of 76 ppm CaCO3. However, the effect of silicate in terms of alkalinity is not included.
That is why it's best to test your unique alkalinity after adding potassium carbonate and potassium silicate, as well as pH. That data is then plugged into Bru'n Water and then Alk Calc and finally HydroBuddy. For very accurate results.
Very good point, me too ... hummm.
D
DonkDBZ
I use hygrozyme right now at 2ml gallon cause I got a ton of it for free otherwise I still got some $15 pond stuff.
My last run with my adjusted version of your formula I bumped P to 80 mid week 5.
My current veg nutes are 171N 36P 193K 64Mg 66S 122Ca 61si
I had everything and end up with 5.7ph
Just trying to finish off bottle of nutes I bought
My last run with my adjusted version of your formula I bumped P to 80 mid week 5.
My current veg nutes are 171N 36P 193K 64Mg 66S 122Ca 61si
I had everything and end up with 5.7ph
Just trying to finish off bottle of nutes I bought
what medium would be best for these nutrients? I keep hearing that its not good to use citric acid for hydro because the ph will swing to much. I guess it would work better in soil or anything with dolomite lime to help buffer it.
Also is it bad to use lemon juice bought from the grocery store? I know it has a few other things in it other than citric acid, but would they really have much of an effect?
would this work for coco too?
i would purchase nutrients from you.
Also is it bad to use lemon juice bought from the grocery store? I know it has a few other things in it other than citric acid, but would they really have much of an effect?
would this work for coco too?
i would purchase nutrients from you.
Sounds good.
Im still on the basic's. 'What is Alkalinity'-At?
Alkalinity or AT measures the ability of a solution to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate. The alkalinity is equal to the stoichiometric sum of the bases in solution. In the natural environment carbonate alkalinity tends to make up most of the total alkalinity due to the common occurrence and dissolution of carbonate rocks and presence of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity
thanks for everything though man, your posts/webcast, calcs make it all alot easier to understand, i think!
why people talk kH is because it makes up the majority of alkalinity in the sol's we use! right? the rest of it, is it worth adding to the equation or is it just making things more complicated for the laymen?
if it kills me, i'll get it one day! chemistry has never been a strong point of mine.
Alkalinity or AT measures the ability of a solution to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate. The alkalinity is equal to the stoichiometric sum of the bases in solution. In the natural environment carbonate alkalinity tends to make up most of the total alkalinity due to the common occurrence and dissolution of carbonate rocks and presence of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity
thanks for everything though man, your posts/webcast, calcs make it all alot easier to understand, i think!
why people talk kH is because it makes up the majority of alkalinity in the sol's we use! right? the rest of it, is it worth adding to the equation or is it just making things more complicated for the laymen?
if it kills me, i'll get it one day! chemistry has never been a strong point of mine.
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Citric acid is a very good pH buffer (from basic swings), that is why I included it, as well as it's other great properties of helping keep P soluble, and it lowers pH.
Using a pH buffering system of potassium carbonate and citric acid works very well, they complement each other. The blog entries by Daniel explain why and proves the science.
The problem most people have with citric acid is they don't add enough to get the pH buffer qualities. You may want to read the two blog entries by Daniel, they prove how well citric acid can buffer pH. But > 0.01 g/L needs to be used ...
The other problem most people have is their NO3:NH4 ratio is crazy, like greater than 20:1. That means the roots are pumping out bicarbonate exudates like made, while only exuding H+ proton rarely (as compared to bicarbonates). If the growers NO3:NH4 ratio isn't suffeicnt, then little can be done to provide strong pH buffering.
Ideally we wouldn't adjust our pH except for maybe once a week, if that.
With my method (at least) 0.02 g/L is used because the pH starts high (from potassium carbonate and potassium silicate), so we can use much citric acid. I also included a second acid, sulfruic (for veg and early-flowering) and phosphoric (for full-flowering). I included the second acids to assist citric acid in pH buffering.
Also, the boost in P for full-flowering comes much from the use of phosphoric acid instead of sulfuric acid, that is why I can boost P a lot but not affect K really at all.
My formulations should work very well for all growing methods. However, for drain-to-waste NFT or aero one would want to reduce P a bit. And coco growers who can't flush their coco well may wish to reduce the K in my formulation a little, but I doubt it's necessary; coco growers may also want to add a bit more Epsom salt to increase Mg to keep the K:Mg ratio closer to 3 (due to high K in coco that isn't very well flushed). Otherwise, all a grower needs to do is adjust EC as I wrote in earlier pages.
Note:
I'm going to look into the chemistry of flushing coco, to see if using a strongly acidic flush would dissociate K from CEC sites with greater efficiency than using RO water. From my current understanding I think it would. Ex., I have read in academic lit. using strongly acidic pH (ex., pH 4) can dissociate (remove) cations (such as K) from "exchangeable" CEC sites due to replacement of cations by H+ protons(?) from the acid. That means if we flush with strongly acidic pH (re lots of H+) we should remove greater amount of cations from CEC sites, thus removing more K than otherwise if we only used RO water. Also, the volume of water needed to flush would be reduced using a strongly acidic pH flush.
I wouldn't use lemon juice, it's got other things in it and you don't how much citric acid you're applying. You can buy citric acid, like an ounce for ~$2 at any beer brewing shop; or you can buy larger quantities for cheap from JR Peters, Ebay, etc. It's so easy to use and buy citric acid I wouldn't suggest using lemon juice.
Exceptionally well, especially because coco has no pH buffering unlike s.peat which has dolomitic and calcidic limes add to it. So the pH buffering afforded by my formulations should really help the roots take up ions efficiently. Just make sure to flush your coco well, to remove as much K as possible (see comments above about low pH flush).
Because I use high Ca, Mg, and K, and sufficient Na, the Cation Exchange sites on coco particles should fill rather quickly, after flushing. Also, my formulations provide a good Ca:Mg ratio so the "Percent Base Saturation" should contain sufficient (and mostly) Ca, which is a good for soilless. The good thing about coco is the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) is not overly high, it's in the medium range, lower than s.peat, humus, etc. That means using my method, one may not need to 'pre-charge' coco after flushing the coco
.
Spurr = Half Man / Half Amazing!
Spurr, for ag-science mod! opened my eyes to much! CA & FA, JA MeJA(++) have all had my attention for a long time now! Thanks for all ya hard work mate, dont let people get ya down, you do more to explain shit on this site than ive ever seen! Time n effort says it all, understanding it takes time n study. Growing is a Science!
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Yes, in basic terms alkalinity buffers pH from acidic swings. That's it. And too much alkalinity, e.g., > 80 ppm will begin to increase pH too greatly. However, I wouldn't use "AT", AFAIK it's best to write out the word because "AT" isn't an accepted acrynym AFAIK.
What's important to know is we want alkalinity (as ppm CaCO3) to be > 20 ppm.
Nope. In basic terms, the acronym "KH" stands for carbonate hardness, aka dKH. And carbonate hardness is a different water quality than alkalinity, that is why alkalinity is qualified as any of these three: ppm CaCO3, ppm HCO3 and mEq/L. It's true carbonates make up much alkalinity, but bicarbonates have stronger effects. Many people (Daniel included) use KH as an acronym for alkalinity, and that's not correct. That was my only point when I wrote about KH.
In terms of using my formulations, or alkalinity, the acronym KH is irrelevant. I just thought I'd make a note in case people read it in HydroBuddy and got confused.
Ha. Well the good part is to use my methodology and formulations you don't have to understand the chemistry, the math or the science. All you have to do is either use my default formulations as is, or customize them to your waters alkalinity and pH (after adding K2CO3 and potassium silicate). Easy as pie
P.S. I think you maybe be over-thinking a bit, you don't need to learn any new chemistry to use my methods.
P.P.S.
Here are good links for these issues and many others with respect to soilless media, well worth reading:
(thanks to my buddy Carl Carlson for reminding me of these)
pH Management and Plant Nutrition
Bill Argo
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm
Bill Argo
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm
- Part 1 Intro
- Part 2 Water Quality
- Part 3 Fertilizers
- Part 4 Substrates
- Part 5 Choosing the Best Fertilizers
Addressing pH Problems (water quality & nitrogen content)
Matt Taylor and Dieter Lohr
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/production/?storyid=2890&style=1
Matt Taylor and Dieter Lohr
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/production/?storyid=2890&style=1
Greenhouse Substrates and Fertilization (also water quality)
Douglas A. Bailey, William C. Fonteno, and Paul V. Nelson
(pdf) http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/plugs/ghsubfert.pdf
Douglas A. Bailey, William C. Fonteno, and Paul V. Nelson
(pdf) http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/plugs/ghsubfert.pdf
Citric acid is a very good pH buffer (from basic swings), that is why I included it, as well as it's other great properties of helping keep P soluble, and it lowers pH.
Using a pH buffering system of potassium carbonate and citric acid works very well, they complement each other. The blog entries by Daniel explain why and proves the science.
The problem most people have with citric acid is they don't add enough to get the pH buffer qualities. You may want to read the two blog entries by Daniel, they prove how well citric acid can buffer pH. But > 0.01 g/L needs to be used ...
The other problem most people have is their NO3:NH4 ratio is crazy, like greater than 20:1. That means the roots are pumping out bicarbonate exudates like made, while only exuding H+ proton rarely (as compared to bicarbonates). If the growers NO3:NH4 ratio isn't suffeicnt, then little can be done to provide strong pH buffering.
Ideally we wouldn't adjust our pH except for maybe once a week, if that.
With my method (at least) 0.02 g/L is used because the pH starts high (from potassium carbonate and potassium silicate), so we can use much citric acid. I also included a second acid, sulfruic (for veg and early-flowering) and phosphoric (for full-flowering). I included the second acids to assist citric acid in pH buffering.
Also, the boost in P for full-flowering comes much from the use of phosphoric acid instead of sulfuric acid, that is why I can boost P a lot but not affect K really at all.
My formulations should work very well for all growing methods. However, for drain-to-waste NFT or aero one would want to reduce P a bit. And coco growers who can't flush their coco well may wish to reduce the K in my formulation a little, but I doubt it's necessary; coco growers may also want to add a bit more Epsom salt to increase Mg to keep the K:Mg ratio closer to 3 (due to high K in coco that isn't very well flushed). Otherwise, all a grower needs to do is adjust EC as I wrote in earlier pages.
Note:
I'm going to look into the chemistry of flushing coco, to see if using a strongly acidic flush would dissociate K from CEC sites with greater efficiency than using RO water. From my current understanding I think it would. Ex., I have read in academic lit. using strongly acidic pH (ex., pH 4) can dissociate (remove) cations (such as K) from "exchangeable" CEC sites due to replacement of cations by H+ protons(?) from the acid. That means if we flush with strongly acidic pH (re lots of H+) we should remove greater amount of cations from CEC sites, thus removing more K than otherwise if we only used RO water. Also, the volume of water needed to flush would be reduced using a strongly acidic pH flush.
I wouldn't use lemon juice, it's got other things in it and you don't how much citric acid you're applying. You can buy citric acid, like an ounce for ~$2 at any beer brewing shop; or you can buy larger quantities for cheap from JR Peters, Ebay, etc. It's so easy to use and buy citric acid I wouldn't suggest using lemon juice.
Exceptionally well, especially because coco has no pH buffering unlike s.peat which has dolomitic and calcidic limes add to it. So the pH buffering afforded by my formulations should really help the roots take up ions efficiently. Just make sure to flush your coco well, to remove as much K as possible (see comments above about low pH flush).
Because I use high Ca, Mg, and K, and sufficient Na, the Cation Exchange sites on coco particles should fill rather quickly, after flushing. Also, my formulations provide a good Ca:Mg ratio so the "Percent Base Saturation" should contain sufficient (and mostly) Ca, which is a good for soilless. The good thing about coco is the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) is not overly high, it's in the medium range, lower than s.peat, humus, etc. That means using my method, one may not need to 'pre-charge' coco after flushing the coco
Thanks, this post helped me out a lot.
singularity
Member
ha! i was splinklin' your apple seeds MONTHS ago. youre the man, spurr! hilarious about the gov' trying to recruit you for not-clear nuclear b/s.(yhea, right) first frame that popped into my mind was dave chappelle's skit on rick james stomping his muddy boots on eddie murphy's couch.
government: we need to enlist you to work on a top secret nuclear program that just might save the universe.
spurr: FUCK yo nuclear reactor, NIGGA!
wise choice, spurr. with the slightest of interest anyone could reveal the nature of government- a serpent eating its own tail. going to run some side-by-sides with your program against lucas here shortly, keep you posted
imadoofus
government: we need to enlist you to work on a top secret nuclear program that just might save the universe.
spurr: FUCK yo nuclear reactor, NIGGA!
wise choice, spurr. with the slightest of interest anyone could reveal the nature of government- a serpent eating its own tail. going to run some side-by-sides with your program against lucas here shortly, keep you posted
imadoofus
Thanks Spurr man, legend mate! I tend to overthink everything, prolly why im not much good at chemistry!
wheres your threads, Singlemanforeverdoofus!? cant say youve taught or enlightened me fkin once mate lol!
wheres your threads, Singlemanforeverdoofus!? cant say youve taught or enlightened me fkin once mate lol!
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