Coco newbie lookin for some advice

[dansbuds]

I finally decide to make the switch to coco . I bought canna coco 50l bag & CNS17 nutes .... grow ,bloom & ripe ... also bought some calmag plus . should i follow the recipe on the bottles or not or use half the recomended dose ?

as far as the canna coco ... the reason i chose it cuz after all the reading here it seems like the best straight out of the bag . should i still flush it ? i am going to precharge it before use with my nutes but i'm unsure about the calmag cuz of my water . its pretty hard water ... i have been using half RO & half tap water with the promix cuz of the calmag thats in it . straight from the tap its 250 ppm @ 7.0 PH with the 50/50 mix its 114ppm @7.0 ph . seems like its got enough calmag that i don't need to add extra unless the coco needs that extra .

a little advice would be appreciated guys & thank you .



growem green & stay safe ...Dans

 

[NachoConQueso]

Forget the precharge. Just fill your pots, soak them under the faucet, and plant your plant. It's not necessary to waste nutrients and water on that particular type of coco. Maybe someone else can chime in on a good CNS17 regimen as I've never used it before. As far as the calmag goes I'd say try without it and if you start seeing cal or mag deficiencies then you know what to do.

 

[Snow Crash]

The pre-charge that Canna Coco has is, I find, far too high for seedlings. If you are starting from seed then I'd suggest flushing the coco and allowing the element buffer to build up over the first 3 or 4 feedings.

Your water worries me at 250ppm. I'd suggest looking at your water report to determine exactly what is in there; too much sodium could contribute to major issues in Coco.

CNS17 Grow, Bloom, and Ripe are going to treat you very well. What I suggest you do is to follow the directions on the labels when you mix your nutrients. The change I make when using CNS17 is to use full strength one day, then half strength the next, and repeating that. I find that coco has no trouble retaining cations and by using a 1/2 strength solution the excess can be removed while still maintaining the exact same ratios of elements.

I'll mix up like 5 gallons on Monday, use maybe 3-4 gallons of that, and then add 3-4 gallons back to the reservoir. Then, depending on how low the EC is, I'll add back in a little CNS17 and some Cal-Mag plus or Epsom Salt to take it to 1/2 strength. Obviously, one size shoe does not fit every foot so you'll still need to tinker a bit in response to the behavior of the plants.

To save yourself the trouble of dealing with buildup I suggest using a minimum of 40% runoff. CNS17 when mixed at full strength runs about $0.09 per gallon, so don't be afraid to get a little extra runoff from time to time (especially with the 1/2 strength) just for the peace of mind.

One suggestion I might make is to cut the Grow out completely when you transition to flowering, and just start pushing the Bloom at 12ml to 15ml per gallon for the first two weeks or so. Don't be afraid to move up the day you begin using Bloom+Ripe in combination also, but try to stick under 25ml total.

I liked using Hydroplex with this system. Something you might want to look into is a decent Potassium supplement. Magnesium is easy enough to get from Epsom Salt (and the CNS17 has a good ratio of it already) but due to the reduced K levels in Coco nutrients you might find a time when the rate of release of K from the Coco for uptake by the plant is too low. In my own garden I am using Cutting Edge Solutions Uncle John's Blend, but you could use a variety of things to help balance out this important element that is required at the higher level than the rest.

I am not a fan of Canna Coco or pure coco mixes for that matter but I've done enough work in them to know that you want to error on the side of caution. Pay attention to the plants, read your water report, use that Cal-Mag plus for the chelated Iron if you see your new growth shoots looking very yellow as they form. Keep the runoff steady and adequate and your nutrients offsetting full and half strengths. I see glory in your future!

 

[dansbuds]

Thank you nacho & snow crash .

The canna brand coco in the 50 liter bags has a precharge ? of what ? calmag . i thought it was totally void of nutes .

90 % of my plants start off as clones & come from vegging plants or plants about 2 weeks into flower ( i like the monster cropped clones )

My water was a big problem when i first moved here ... sense then i got an RO set up & was using just RO @ first . then I started adding my tap @ 50% for the calmag . I've had no problems sense adding the tap except a little curling in transplants . but in flower things got better adding the tap . my 50/50 mix comes out to around 110 ppm & 7.0 to 7.2 .... so not to bad .

one thing i did forget to mention is that i'm using the coco in Hempy buckets with 2 " of perilte in the bottom , will feed when needed @ prolly full strength . ( per Hempys advice ) with some runoff basicly to know when the 2 " rez is full .
not going to be a automated system . no big rez to fill .

Again thank you for the nute info , that helps tremendously . not sure what hydroplex is or does but will check it out . I have protekt here i'm using as a PH up & will keep using that . also have silica blast ( i love my sugary nugs ) so i think i'm good on the pottasium . also have the epsom salts , had it here for defs .
the calmag ... i was gonna not use unless i saw defs . not sure what to do really about the calmag ..... defenatly need to have my water tested just clueless as to where .

I had great plants when i used hempys perilite vermiculite buckets & have been wanting to try coco cuz of the great yields i've been reading about so i figured ...why not ?

Thanx guys & thanx snow for the nutrient info .... its tagged & saved .




growem green & stay safe ....Dans

 

[dansbuds]

My hydroshop didn't have the CNS17 , so they gave me a good deal on the canna brand nutes . i picked up canna coco A & B , PK 13/14 & rhizotonic . i have some botanicare calmag & some protekt & silicablast for when the protekt runs out . I loved using the protekt when i was doing promix but now that i'm doing coco hempys & the differences in calcium, magnesium & pottasium have me a little confused . i'm not sure if i should be using the pottasium silicate & when i can use it . i used it from start to fininsh in flowering when i had promix .... can i do the same with coco ? i mixed up some nutes yesterday 8ml of A & B & 20 ml of rhizo when i transplanted some girls into the coco , but i had to PH down from 6.5 to 5.8 so the protekt i use as a PH up wasn't needed . I'm not adding calmag yet unless i see the need cuz my water (50/50 RO & tap ) should supply plenty of calmag . I hope we will see i guess .
but my main question is about the pottasium silicate , i really want to use this but not sure if i can or should . like i said i have PK 13/14 which is pottasium sulfate & pottasium phosphate which is only used during the 3rd week of flowering . i'm not up on the chemical breakdowns of different nutes but it seems like adding the silicate would be a hell of alot of pottasium even though its in a different form . can anybody give me an insite to what to do . i want to learn all i can about the nutes & when & what the plants need but its like i'm getting over loaded . (My brain hurts man )
was also thinking about using my koolbloom instead of the PK 13/14 cuz it has a small amount of magnesium in it which from what i understand about coco ... it needs the mag during flower instead of calmag . good idea or not ? it also has sulfer & nitrogen so not really sure .

help a confused coco newbie out will ya guys ??? thanx

 

[Snow Crash]

Let me get your started in the right direction.

Every 1ml of 1% of an element in a gallon of nutrients will add 2.6455 ppm of that element to the solution.

So if you add 3ml of 0-0-3 that would be 3x3x2.6455. Or an addition of about 23.81ppm.

Phosphorus as listed is not actually the true amount of phosphorus you will get. They are listing the percentage of P205, which is only 44% Phosphorus. They are also listing K2O rather than pure K. K20 is only 83% Potassium. You must also be aware that what is listed on the bottle is only what is promised to be in the bottle. Inevitably, there will be more in the nutrient then is listed, including ingredients. I find that Canna A+B runs about 70% stronger then the labels say it should. This deviance has many factors including the calibration of your meter, the brand of your meter, and of course the extras contained in the bottles.

I also find that nutrients that are higher in Calcium regularly test higher than they should. Cal-Mag plus will add 0.1EC for every 1ml, so you'll never need more than 5ml of the stuff. I'd suggest running 2-3ml/gallon consistently. What you get out of Cal-Mag Plus that really makes a difference isn't the Calcium or the Magnesium. It's the "Plus." The extra chelated iron in the product makes a huge improvement in grows as this cation helps the plant make healthy green new growth. The CEC of Coco increases the need for iron and Canna hasn't quite figured that out.

Canna claims they anticipate that people's tap water will contain the micro that their systems lack. Most growers on filtered water, or just without the perfect blend of micro-elements in there, rely on the iron in Cal-Mag plus without even knowing it. 2ml/gallon is enough to solve the issue.

Running 20ml of Rhizotonic is a little extreme. You can cut that back to 15ml at the max.

 

[dansbuds]

Let me get your started in the right direction.

Every 1ml of 1% of an element in a gallon of nutrients will add 2.6455 ppm of that element to the solution.

So if you add 3ml of 0-0-3 that would be 3x3x2.6455. Or an addition of about 23.81ppm.

Phosphorus as listed is not actually the true amount of phosphorus you will get. They are listing the percentage of P205, which is only 44% Phosphorus. They are also listing K2O rather than pure K. K20 is only 83% Potassium. You must also be aware that what is listed on the bottle is only what is promised to be in the bottle. Inevitably, there will be more in the nutrient then is listed, including ingredients. I find that Canna A+B runs about 70% stronger then the labels say it should. This deviance has many factors including the calibration of your meter, the brand of your meter, and of course the extras contained in the bottles.

wow thanx for this snow crash . i appreciate the info . so if its 70% stronger .... i should use the nutes @ at least half strength ... maybe less correct ?

I also find that nutrients that are higher in Calcium regularly test higher than they should. Cal-Mag plus will add 0.1EC for every 1ml, so you'll never need more than 5ml of the stuff. I'd suggest running 2-3ml/gallon consistently. What you get out of Cal-Mag Plus that really makes a difference isn't the Calcium or the Magnesium. It's the "Plus." The extra chelated iron in the product makes a huge improvement in grows as this cation helps the plant make healthy green new growth. The CEC of Coco increases the need for iron and Canna hasn't quite figured that out.

Canna claims they anticipate that people's tap water will contain the micro that their systems lack. Most growers on filtered water, or just without the perfect blend of micro-elements in there, rely on the iron in Cal-Mag plus without even knowing it. 2ml/gallon is enough to solve the issue.

so i should give a small 2 or 3 ml dose of calmag every feeding .... should i drop my tap & run straight RO ? is there a chance that i could overdose the calmag if my water is not optimal ?

Running 20ml of Rhizotonic is a little extreme. You can cut that back to 15ml at the max

my bad, that was the nute levels i put in 4 gallons of 50/50 tap & RO . i gave it a low transplant dose of 5ml of rhizo per gallon & 2ml per gallon of A & B . prolly should have said that

can i ask about the pottasium silicate ? can i use this on a regular basis or is it going to be a problem with the canna coco nutes ? or should i just use molasess as a sweetener ?

thanx again snow crash . i'm learning every day but a few things still confuse me . i will get to the point where i know what each element does & how they interact with each other .... someday hopefully

 

[Snow Crash]

wow thanx for this snow crash . i appreciate the info . so if its 70% stronger .... i should use the nutes @ at least half strength ... maybe less correct ?

Just watch the plants and never go over 12ml/gallon of A or B. I don't ever use less than 2ml/gallon of them. 8ml/gallon as been a pretty good spot for most of my plants. Each Phenotype and Strain will require a little thought on your side to get them dialed. I always error on the side of caution but 1/2 strength seems a touch low. 70% to 80% of suggested is just fine.

so i should give a small 2 or 3 ml dose of calmag every feeding .... should i drop my tap & run straight RO ? is there a chance that i could overdose the calmag if my water is not optimal ?

Many people think that the Cal-Mag Plus will add a good deal of additional calcium to the solution. This is a misconception. Canna Coco A contains 4.5% Calcium, compared to just 3% in the Cal-Mag Plus. What the Cal-Mag Plus does is even out the Magnesium level (running 1.5% to Canna's 1%) and add the iron to the mix. If there is anything in your water that will cause issues I'd imagine it'd be Sodium and Chlorides rather than Calcium. 2ml/gallon shouldn't contribute to any issues in coco, if you choose to run RO filtered water I'd suggest using up to 5ml/gallon during weeks 4 and 5 of vegetative growth as this will be a period of great vigor.

The elements to watch out for imbalances with are Magnesium and Potassium. Ca++, Mg++, and K+ are all cations and will compete for osmosis by the root system. An over abundance of one element in the media can cause the inability to obtain the proper elements to develop (similar to low pH issues). For the most part choosing to reduce the presence of one element is generally a better idea then to provide more of the elements that are lacking. In this case though, I generally start to provide more Magnesium and Potassium rather than to decrease my Calcium use.

You'll have to keep an eye on your plants and make the decision yourself, but keep an eye out for interveinal chlorisis (the parts between the veins goes yellow, then dies). This may indiciate a cation imbalance and can usually have the symptoms relieved by a foliar spray dominant with Magnesium; as well as an extra 10-15ppm of Mg from Epsom Salt added to the reservoir solution.

Epsom Salts are 10% Magnesium and 14% Sulfur. I usually use somewhere around 1/2 tsp in 5 gallons of water for the gentle nudge it gives my Mg levels. Magnesium is used at 30 to 60ppm on average, so an increase of just 10ppm of this element could be a pretty big addition to this low concentration, percentage wise.

So 2ml/gallon Cal-Mag plus for sure, maybe up to 4ml or 5ml if you're running pure RO. During flowering, starting right at the transition, I suggest adding just a touch of extra Epsom Salt to the mix. If you'd like, you can mix 100g of Epsom Salt ( a little less than 7 tablespoons) into 1L of water for a 1% Mg solution. You can then use this solution at 3-5ml per gallon for the extra kick you're looking for.

my bad, that was the nute levels i put in 4 gallons of 50/50 tap & RO . i gave it a low transplant dose of 5ml of rhizo per gallon & 2ml per gallon of A & B . prolly should have said that

Ohhh, ok That makes a little more sense.

Early on with coco, and Canna Rhizotonic, That's basically all I run. The system is fairly balanced nutritionally and I find that a balanced 1-1-1 kind of ratio helps keep my plants happier earlier on. Each element is necessary early on so you don't want to push a ton of N or Ca which only causes issues with a seedling. I like to use 10ml of Rhizo plus maybe 2ml of Cal-Mag Plus. Recently I've been finding young pretty easy to manage. With them, less is more, and you just gotta let them grow. Once you get 4 leaf sets on there and they start to pick up some steam, and require daily feedings because the root system has filled the starting container, is generally when I'll incorporate the A+B.

I try to start my plants in containers that are small enough to allow me to transplant right as the plant is transitioning into full vegetative growth. The media I transplant into will be charged ahead of time which my seedlings always seem to appreciate.

can i ask about the pottasium silicate ? can i use this on a regular basis or is it going to be a problem with the canna coco nutes ? or should i just use molasess as a sweetener ?

You might be a little confused here, I know I am...

The Potassium Silicate is a Silica supplement before it is a potassium supplement. There is about 2x the Silica in there to potassium so what you are getting is that element. Silica is a structure building element for the plant and it is used to help create strong fibers in the plant stems and leaf tissue. Potassium Silicates are most effective when infrequently applied as a foliar spray just at lights on. I use about 2ml/gallon of the Pro-Tekt in the foliar spray and I also like to add it to my reservoir at 3ml per gallon for most of the grow. I haven't noticed any issues running it, although I think it might be best applied only once or twice a week if you're feeding daily (which is what the nute companies suggest). I will also use it as a pH up in my reservoir so I wind up using it just about every feeding anyway.

Adding a Potassium Silicate to your reservoir will cause a temporary precipitation of Calcium Sulfate. This appears as a white cloud in the reservoir around where the Pro-Tekt is added. To minimize the chance of precipitations always add the Epsom Salts AFTER adding the Potassium Silicates to reduce the amount of Sulfur available for precipitation.

I do not suggest using Molasses or Sweeteners. Carbohydrates need to be broken down by Micro-Fauna in the media. Coco is not the most organic of medias, especially if you're not running something like Great White or Oregonism. I think that you'd be best saving your money here. Sweeteners have a tendency to make all the buds from a grow room, despite having different genetics, all have the same sweet kind of flavor. At first it is okay because the potency is good but after a while the same smell/taste will get to you. If you're going to spend the time to grow more than 1 strain then I'd suggest no sweeteners. If you are growing just one strain the I would suggest to you to use Unsulfered Molasses as a cheap sweetener. Botanicare Sweet Citrus is probably my favorite commercial sweetener because I'm a citrusy kind of guy. I don't like Bud Candy or Honey ES, but I have heard good things about FloraNectar from General Hydro and Sugaree from Cutting Edge Solutions. I think these sorts of things isn't the wisest place to put your cash and that you'd be better off with another temperature sensor to better watch your environment.

To each their own. You can run both a sweetener and a Potassium Silicate without issue. They are not interchangeable but they will work in combination without much fuss, I'd imagine

thanx again snow crash . i'm learning every day but a few things still confuse me . i will get to the point where i know what each element does & how they interact with each other .... someday hopefully

No worries dude. There's a lot to learn about and it's not like it will happen over night. Especially when teaching yourself and having to sift through a good deal of misinformation and personal preferences. Just suck up what you can. All the real learning, and Grower-Growing, happens in the grow room. Don't underestimate your own problem solving skills.

I think that these days, with the internet, people are more inclined to answer "I don't know, I'll just look it up," rather than to just think about the answer. The best tool you have in the garden is your own brain. Don't sell that tool short! You'd be surprised what is sitting in that old subconscious just waiting to bubble up to the surface.

 

[dansbuds]

Just watch the plants and never go over 12ml/gallon of A or B. I don't ever use less than 2ml/gallon of them. 8ml/gallon as been a pretty good spot for most of my plants. Each Phenotype and Strain will require a little thought on your side to get them dialed. I always error on the side of caution but 1/2 strength seems a touch low. 70% to 80% of suggested is just fine.

8ml is where i was going to start anyway ( low end feeding on the chart ) .

The elements to watch out for imbalances with are Magnesium and Potassium. Ca++, Mg++, and K+ are all cations and will compete for osmosis by the root system. An over abundance of one element in the media can cause the inability to obtain the proper elements to develop (similar to low pH issues). For the most part choosing to reduce the presence of one element is generally a better idea then to provide more of the elements that are lacking. In this case though, I generally start to provide more Magnesium and Potassium rather than to decrease my Calcium use.

the epsom salts i have . which pottasium are we talking about just so i can be clear ? pottasium sulfate . phosphate or silica or doesn't it matter as long as its pottasium ?

You'll have to keep an eye on your plants and make the decision yourself, but keep an eye out for interveinal chlorisis (the parts between the veins goes yellow, then dies). This may indiciate a cation imbalance and can usually have the symptoms relieved by a foliar spray dominant with Magnesium; as well as an extra 10-15ppm of Mg from Epsom Salt added to the reservoir solution.

foliar huh ? was never a big fan of foliar feeding but will defenatly give it a try .

The Potassium Silicate is a Silica supplement before it is a potassium supplement. There is about 2x the Silica in there to potassium so what you are getting is that element. Silica is a structure building element for the plant and it is used to help create strong fibers in the plant stems and leaf tissue. Potassium Silicates are most effective when infrequently applied as a foliar spray just at lights on. I use about 2ml/gallon of the Pro-Tekt in the foliar spray and I also like to add it to my reservoir at 3ml per gallon for most of the grow. I haven't noticed any issues running it, although I think it might be best applied only once or twice a week if you're feeding daily (which is what the nute companies suggest). I will also use it as a pH up in my reservoir so I wind up using it just about every feeding anyway.

Adding a Potassium Silicate to your reservoir will cause a temporary precipitation of Calcium Sulfate. This appears as a white cloud in the reservoir around where the Pro-Tekt is added. To minimize the chance of precipitations always add the Epsom Salts AFTER adding the Potassium Silicates to reduce the amount of Sulfur available for precipitation.

I do not suggest using Molasses or Sweeteners. Carbohydrates need to be broken down by Micro-Fauna in the media. Coco is not the most organic of medias, especially if you're not running something like Great White or Oregonism. I think that you'd be best saving your money here. Sweeteners have a tendency to make all the buds from a grow room, despite having different genetics, all have the same sweet kind of flavor. At first it is okay because the potency is good but after a while the same smell/taste will get to you. If you're going to spend the time to grow more than 1 strain then I'd suggest no sweeteners. If you are growing just one strain the I would suggest to you to use Unsulfered Molasses as a cheap sweetener. Botanicare Sweet Citrus is probably my favorite commercial sweetener because I'm a citrusy kind of guy. I don't like Bud Candy or Honey ES, but I have heard good things about FloraNectar from General Hydro and Sugaree from Cutting Edge Solutions. I think these sorts of things isn't the wisest place to put your cash and that you'd be better off with another temperature sensor to better watch your environment.

To each their own. You can run both a sweetener and a Potassium Silicate without issue. They are not interchangeable but they will work in combination without much fuss, I'd imagine

i'd much rather run the protekt than any sweetener , but wasn't sure about to much pottasium .

dude you are the best !!!!!! this helps me so much ... you just don't know . your right in it takes time to learn all this but i'm pretty good at weeding out the bad advice & pickin the good .... like you

thanx again man its soooooo much appreciated .

 

[Snow Crash]

Always glad to bring another into the world.

Elements bind together as salts when they are out of water. I could go into chemical valences, electron shells, van der wall bonding... but I'm going to assume you passed high school chemistry and skip all that.

When you add something like potassium silicate to water the potassium and the silicate separate (for the most part) allowing free floating cations/ions of each in the solution. Regardless of whether it is Potassium Sulfate, Phosphate, Silicate, Nitrate/Nitride, hydroxide, etc, you're still getting free floating K+ cations in your solution.

I like to calculate my ppm levels based on the labels to get an estimate of how much K+ I have in the solution. There are a lot of different numbers with potassium, grower to grower, media to media, but most growers stick between 150ppm and 250ppm of potassium in their solutions. A little from source A, a little from sources B and C, and it will all total up to a final level. When you're mixing a few different things together it is always best to be aware of the minimum number of ppm you are picking up from each nutrient so that you don't go and create an imbalance.

Personally, I like to use a combination of things. Liquid Karma, Uncle John's Blend, Big Bud Dry, Snow Storm Ultra... Each of these nutrients is Potassium dominant and when used in combination at low levels they will all work together to keep the plant healthy and happy. This is what I choose to do, but other people might not have to make this choice

I personally didn't like the results I got out of PK 13/14 and instead I picked up General Hydroponics Liquid KoolBloom 0-10-10. A very similar ratio of P to K as in Canna's PK 13/14, except the LKB contains some magnesium as well. I have used the LKB at 1-2ml per gallon right from the transition up until day 35. From days 35 to 45 on a 60 day strain I like to push more LKB and less A+B (like 4ml A, 4ml B, and 5ml LKB). The week 6 window is when you really want to be pushing your PK levels. The beginning of week 3 (or for some people, day 15) is too early to push the full strength levels of PK 13/14.

Something I noticed you didn't list purchasing is Cannazym. At 0-2-1, and at 10ml per gallon, this is probably the most crucial part of the Canna system when it comes to producing flowers. The static ratio of elements that Canna uses in their A+B needs an alteration at the transition to budding, and the 0-2-1 is vital to assist that ratio shift.

Rather than using Cannazym in my own garden I have been using Botanicare Hydroplex 0-10-6. It is about 5x as concentrated (elements) as the Cannazym, so you can use 2ml instead of 10ml for the same ratio change. The best part about that is the Hydroplex doesn't cost more than the Cannazym, so you're going to save 5x the money too! The enzymes in Cannazym I have found to be "whatever" in coco, having them made no change compared to not having them. The big thing you need isn't the enzymes, it's the PK, and Hydroplex is the best replacement I have found dollar for dollar.

Hydroplex contains vitamins and amino-acids as well as the PK boost. These supposedly help support larger flowers. I found that my buds were bigger than ever before when running this nutrient and if you haven't picked up the Cannazym then I'd suggest getting Hydroplex (you can get an 8oz bottle if you just want to try it out for like $10) and using it in place of Cannazym at 1ml to 2ml per gallon right at the 12/12 switch.

I actually was really displeased with the Canna system, as you could probably tell by my adding different products to it. I replaced Rhizotonic with General Organics BioRoot and BioWeed and get better results. I replaced Cannazym with Hydroplex and get better results. I replaced PK 13/14 with Liquid KoolBloom and get better results. I replaced A+B with CNS17 Grow/Bloom/Ripe and get better results.

I still haven't found anything better at what it does then Boost Accelerator. I mean, the price is kinda gnarly but the stuff really does work. I like to get BioCanna BioBoost Accelerator and use it in my foliar sprays during weeks 2-6 of flowering, this allows me to get a less expensive 250ml bottle size but to get the same results I'd get by using 4x that level as a root drench.

Not that I think Canna is a bad system. I grew some great Cannabis with the stuff for sure. I just found it to be a little lacking and as I supplemented the nutrient line to get the iron, PK, and Magnesium it needed I naturally found myself exploring other options and being happily surprised with the outcome verses Canna. Everyone has to find a system that suits them best and you're following about the same path into coco that I took several years ago.

Hopefully the lessons I learned, and the experiences I have had, will find a way to have an impact in your own garden. I am not some master level grower. I am still learning, as we all are, and there are still many products I haven't tried yet (more General Organics please) or products that have have used but haven't come back to since becoming more accomplished.

Something else I should make sure I mention is to ensure you're getting runoff and removing it every time. I have heard that 20% is the minimum, but I honestly find that to be a little too low for my own garden. I regularly work with over 33% runoff, close to 50% on many occasions. I find that my medium sized plants require about 1.5 liter to 2 liters of solution per day, so I use about 3L per plant per day. This helps me ensure that any residual buildup is washed out so that my plant is drinking exactly the solution I am giving her rather than a kind of hodge-podged average of what is in the planter already (what the plant didn't consume) plus what I add. Too much guess work for me, so I keep my runoff volumes nice and high for the peace of mind.

I'll mix up 5 gallons of solution, get about 2 gallons of runoff. That 2 gallons of runoff will cost me about $0.18 per gallon, so about a quarter and a dime per day down the drain. If I did that every day, for 50 days (not counting the flush at the end), it'd only cost me like $20. Being that I'll be pulling down >1lbs at harvest because their was no buildup to stress my plants out... that is $20 well spent. If anything, it allows me to address issues as natural deficiencies, or imbalances in the solution, rather than a mystery buildup in the media which requires flushing.

Burning and flushing your plant will kill your harvest weight. Especially during the 2nd and 3rd weeks of flowering. I always drop my EC level (less nutrients), balance out the PK levels (adding a supplement to balance out the N dominant A+B) and ensure that I'm getting just an assload of runoff every time so that my plants are sitting pretty at day 30 into 12/12 and they are ready for me to push them good and hard over the next 3 weeks to build those flowers out fat.

I would compare it to Nascar. You don't want to push your car too hard too early or you'll need to pit so you can refuel, cool the brakes, and put on some new rubber. Playing it slow and steady keeps you out of the pits and winning the race. That's my suggestion to anyone in coco on any system. Take it easy on the nutrients during the transition and you'll be glad you did on the harvest date.

 

[Snow Crash]

I could edit my above post but it got a little wordy and I wanted to talk about foliar spraying apart from all that.

When I began growing I didn't understand how to foliar. It took some time and this is what I have learned.

Always foliar feed just as the lights come on. The plant is waking up and taking in moisture. In nature, during the early morning the plant would be covered with a fine dew and over a few million years plants have grown to utilize the mist and the dew as a source of moisture. You are trying to exploit this natural process by including some of the food the plant will need, practically injecting it right to the site it is required at.

Water droplets can cause a prism effect focusing the light like a magnifying glass and burning small holes into the leaves. To avoid this issue you want to include a surfactant in the foliar solution, like a drop of Ivory dish soap, or something like CocoWet or Wet Betty, SM-90, and many others. Surfactants reduce the surface tension of the water. This means smaller droplets, or an even "sheet" of water over the leaf, rather than points of focused light. I find that 5 minutes or so after foliar feeding all the moisture is either absorbed or evaporated, depending on the Relative Humidity and temperature of course.

The parts of the plant that will be able to bring in the foliar spray are located on the underside of the leaves. To reduce waste and the risk of mold it is best to focus your foliar spray on the underside of your fan leaves. This also helps keep the amount of water which could form damaging droplets off the top of the leaves that face the intense light.

Always follow up a nutrient solution foliar spray with a "pure water" foliar spray (by pure water I will still usually add in a touch of fulvic acid for the pH drop). Salts can build up on the leaves which will clog stomata (the respiration system of your plants) so to help avoid this issue you'll want to use just some clean water (sometimes I'll turn the lights down around mid-day of a foliar and do my clean water the same day to reduce the potential of clogs). I really only have this problem when pushing a lot of Epsom Salt without Fulvic Acid. The Fulvic Acids seem to have reduced this issue to the point that I don't even really worry about it anymore.

My own foliar sprays may contain (depending on time of life or illness):
A cold pressed kelp extract
Epsom Salt
Uncle John's Blend or Snow Storm Ultra
Liquid Karma
Liquid Light Gold
BioBoost Accelerator
FlavorFul Fulvic Acid
Potassium Silicates
Ivory dish soap

I usually stick with Liquid Karma, Pro-Tekt, Fulvic Acid, Epsom Salt, and a drop of soap for veg. I add the resin enhancers and Liquid Light Gold for flowering. I'll foliar maybe 2x per week with nutrients, and 2x per week with water. Sometimes I'll mix in a Epsom Salt foliar (pretty much ES, Fulvic, Surfactant) the moment I see my leaf "meat" going yellow on me. Helps a ton to stop that issue for a day until the media gets the cation imbalance worked out.

I used to speak out against foliar feeding. Now I really like it. Especially for combating illnesses like Magnesium and Potassium deficiency.

 

[dansbuds]

Thanx again snow . i think i'm pretty good now . i have a nute sched figured out & know what to look for as far as defs go .

I don't use seeds that much , mainly clones & am going to try coco cloning for ease of transplant but i doubt the vermiculite i use now in the ice cube cloner will give me any probs if the coco cloning doesn't work for me .

for transplanting clones
10ml of rhizo
2ml of calmag plus
3ml of silica
after clones grow to 4th node add
2ml of A & B

for veg ....
6ml of A & B
8ml of rhizo
2 ml of calmag plus
3ml of a silica

flowering ...
4ml of A & B for the first 4 weeks then will step down during week 5 of feeding to 2ml when adding the PK boost
2ml of calmag plus
3ml of silica
2ml of hydroplex
3ml of PK 13/14 @ week 5 & 6
add 1/2 tsp of epsom per 5 gallons


all measurements are ml per gallon of a 50/50 mix of tap & RO PH of 5.8
& all fed to the point of 30% runoff

I have 3 seperate jars to mix things in seperatly before adding to the 5 gallon jug . 1 for the A, 1 for the B, & 1 for the silica . i do this cuz of the interactions & precipitaions that can happen .


Thanx again dude ... you're the best

if any of this seems wrong ... please let me know . but i think i have a pretty good understanding now .

 

[Scrogerman]

great info snowcrash.k+

 

[dansbuds]

When I began growing I didn't understand how to foliar. It took some time and this is what I have learned.

Always foliar feed just as the lights come on. The plant is waking up and taking in moisture. In nature, during the early morning the plant would be covered with a fine dew and over a few million years plants have grown to utilize the mist and the dew as a source of moisture. You are trying to exploit this natural process by including some of the food the plant will need, practically injecting it right to the site it is required at.

Water droplets can cause a prism effect focusing the light like a magnifying glass and burning small holes into the leaves. To avoid this issue you want to include a surfactant in the foliar solution, like a drop of Ivory dish soap, or something like CocoWet or Wet Betty, SM-90, and many others. Surfactants reduce the surface tension of the water. This means smaller droplets, or an even "sheet" of water over the leaf, rather than points of focused light. I find that 5 minutes or so after foliar feeding all the moisture is either absorbed or evaporated, depending on the Relative Humidity and temperature of course.

The parts of the plant that will be able to bring in the foliar spray are located on the underside of the leaves. To reduce waste and the risk of mold it is best to focus your foliar spray on the underside of your fan leaves. This also helps keep the amount of water which could form damaging droplets off the top of the leaves that face the intense light.

Always follow up a nutrient solution foliar spray with a "pure water" foliar spray (by pure water I will still usually add in a touch of fulvic acid for the pH drop). Salts can build up on the leaves which will clog stomata (the respiration system of your plants) so to help avoid this issue you'll want to use just some clean water (sometimes I'll turn the lights down around mid-day of a foliar and do my clean water the same day to reduce the potential of clogs). I really only have this problem when pushing a lot of Epsom Salt without Fulvic Acid. The Fulvic Acids seem to have reduced this issue to the point that I don't even really worry about it anymore.

My own foliar sprays may contain (depending on time of life or illness):
A cold pressed kelp extract
Epsom Salt
Uncle John's Blend or Snow Storm Ultra
Liquid Karma
Liquid Light Gold
BioBoost Accelerator
FlavorFul Fulvic Acid
Potassium Silicates
Ivory dish soap

I usually stick with Liquid Karma, Pro-Tekt, Fulvic Acid, Epsom Salt, and a drop of soap for veg. I add the resin enhancers and Liquid Light Gold for flowering. I'll foliar maybe 2x per week with nutrients, and 2x per week with water. Sometimes I'll mix in a Epsom Salt foliar (pretty much ES, Fulvic, Surfactant) the moment I see my leaf "meat" going yellow on me. Helps a ton to stop that issue for a day until the media gets the cation imbalance worked out.

I used to speak out against foliar feeding. Now I really like it. Especially for combating illnesses like Magnesium and Potassium deficiency.

Wow thank you for this ... as i said I never got into foliar cuz i didn't understand alot of it . but this helps alot .

I usually stick with Liquid Karma, Pro-Tekt, Fulvic Acid, Epsom Salt, and a drop of soap for veg. I add the resin enhancers and Liquid Light Gold for flowering. I'll foliar maybe 2x per week with nutrients, and 2x per week with water. Sometimes I'll mix in a Epsom Salt foliar (pretty much ES, Fulvic, Surfactant) the moment I see my leaf "meat" going yellow on me. Helps a ton to stop that issue for a day until the media gets the cation imbalance worked out.

for veg i have everything except the fulvic acid . the resin enhancers & liquid light gold i'll have to look into .but it defenatly sounds interesting .

Man i can't thank you enough . i have learned so much from you & the fantasic people from IC its amazing .

 

[Snow Crash]

The liquid light gold is more for once you get everything dialed in. Don't worry about that one for a while. Proactive foliar feeding, rather than reactive foliar feeding, is more for once you top out using traditional methods. I wouldn't worry about it until you get a grow or two under you belt in the coco, so you will know what to expect before it hits and so you can foliar feed to avoid it.

Your nutrient levels look pretty good. My suggestions are to...
Increase you use of Rhizotonic, especially after transplanting and through veg. I'd go with an even 10ml after transplant, and 5ml to 8ml through veg, cutting down to 2ml to 5ml for flowering.
Include a PK supplement at the 12/12 flip to flowering. Cannazym at 0-2-1 is what they suggest. Anything that is in about a 2:1 P:K ratio is going to work though to help resolve the element ratios for the flip to flowering.

Also, you want to be running more like 10ml/gallon on the A+B during veg but less during flowering. By increasing the amount of A+B you're making the biggest impact to the levels of Nitrogen and Calcium, adding quite a bit to these element levels. Unfortunately, flowering plants require less N and Ca in flowering then they did in Veg. I'd suggest more like 10ml/gallon at the peak of veg, but then cutting back to 6ml to 8ml per gallon when you flip to flowering and begin incorporating the PK balancer.

8ml per gallon will net you about 100ppm of Nitrogen on the A+B which is plenty through flowering, especially with the addition of a little Cal-Mag plus. You still need the N, and you don't want to push too much PK but you still need some. I find that as I increase the PK levels something else is going to need to be decreased so that I do not overfeed during the transition.

I really need to drive that home. Do not burn you plants during the transition to flowering with too much A+B plus new flowering boosters. Cut them all back for a bit, get a good deal of runoff, and let the plant speak to you. Fixing a nitrogen deficiency in coco is super easy and fast to resolve, but fixing nitrogen toxicity can be a huge bag of worms. Error on the side of caution, for real dude.

 

[dansbuds]

Your nutrient levels look pretty good. My suggestions are to...
Increase you use of Rhizotonic, especially after transplanting and through veg. I'd go with an even 10ml after transplant, and 5ml to 8ml through veg, cutting down to 2ml to 5ml for flowering.
Include a PK supplement at the 12/12 flip to flowering. Cannazym at 0-2-1 is what they suggest. Anything that is in about a 2:1 P:K ratio is going to work though to help resolve the element ratios for the flip to flowering.

Also, you want to be running more like 10ml/gallon on the A+B during veg but less during flowering. By increasing the amount of A+B you're making the biggest impact to the levels of Nitrogen and Calcium, adding quite a bit to these element levels. Unfortunately, flowering plants require less N and Ca in flowering then they did in Veg. I'd suggest more like 10ml/gallon at the peak of veg, but then cutting back to 6ml to 8ml per gallon when you flip to flowering and begin incorporating the PK balancer.

8ml per gallon will net you about 100ppm of Nitrogen on the A+B which is plenty through flowering, especially with the addition of a little Cal-Mag plus. You still need the N, and you don't want to push too much PK but you still need some. I find that as I increase the PK levels something else is going to need to be decreased so that I do not overfeed during the transition.

I really need to drive that home. Do not burn you plants during the transition to flowering with too much A+B plus new flowering boosters. Cut them all back for a bit, get a good deal of runoff, and let the plant speak to you. Fixing a nitrogen deficiency in coco is super easy and fast to resolve, but fixing nitrogen toxicity can be a huge bag of worms. Error on the side of caution, for real dude.

ok , so i ammended my nute sched to what you suggested . the cannazym ... i didn't realize it had the P & K in it . thought it was just a enzym to break down the old roots . gonna have to grab a bottle ... thanx
I'm probably not going to reuse the coco . wouldn't the PK 13/14 added to the nutes at a lower dosage do the same thing as the cannazym ? gonna have to do some reading on the 2 products .

Also, you want to be running more like 10ml/gallon on the A+B during veg but less during flowering. By increasing the amount of A+B you're making the biggest impact to the levels of Nitrogen and Calcium, adding quite a bit to these element levels. Unfortunately, flowering plants require less N and Ca in flowering then they did in Veg. I'd suggest more like 10ml/gallon at the peak of veg, but then cutting back to 6ml to 8ml per gallon when you flip to flowering and begin incorporating the PK balancer.

8ml per gallon will net you about 100ppm of Nitrogen on the A+B which is plenty through flowering, especially with the addition of a little Cal-Mag plus. You still need the N, and you don't want to push too much PK but you still need some. I find that as I increase the PK levels something else is going to need to be decreased so that I do not overfeed during the transition.

I really need to drive that home. Do not burn you plants during the transition to flowering with too much A+B plus new flowering boosters. Cut them all back for a bit, get a good deal of runoff, and let the plant speak to you.

yeah i thought it looked kinda outa whack with the A & B . having more in flowering than veg but the chart they gave me had me a little confused too . but i got it straight now . i will add the cannazym to my shedual after i pick it up & read it . thanx for the heads up on that , didn;t realize it had the P & K .

 

[dansbuds]

LOL you added some shit to your posts or i missed it somehow when reading through the first couple times . like the hydroplex & why you've changed from some of the canna brand nutes . i wanted the CNS 17 line but the hydro store only had it for hydro & the nute levels were different so he gave me a good deal on the canna line . prolly gonna order it online when this stuff runs out .

well looks like i'm readin through this again "a few times " to make sure i've got it all straight .
you defenatly got me thinkin again .

question ..... how long is the transition feeding time 1 week or 1 feeding ?

Man i hope the mods see this thread cuz theres a shitton of great info here & it should be a sticky thread .
THanx again man

 

[dansbuds]

I think this schedule sounds a little better ... what do ya think SC?
I will switch from the PK 13/14 to LKB when it runs out .so i can run it during the whole flowering period . i have the powdered stuff now that i can use as a 5 or 6 week boost like the PK 13/14 & it has the magnesium also . should have just waited & got the CNS but i wanted to get things going so i didn't screw with my perpetual .
i know ... i know ...patience !!

for transplanting clones i'll give them

10ml of rhizo
2ml of calmag plus
3ml of silica

for veg ....
6ml of A & B
8ml of rhizo
2 ml of calmag plus
3ml of a silica

flowering ...
4ml of A & B for the first 4 weeks then will step down during week 5 of feeding
to 2ml when adding the PK boost
5ml of rhizo for the first 4 weeks then 2ml for the last 4 weeks
2ml of calmag plus
3ml of epsom mix ( 100gm per liter )
3ml of silica
2ml of hydroplex
3ml of PK 13/14 @ week 5

all measurements are ml per gallon of a 50/50 mix of tap & RO PH of 5.8
& all fed to the point of 30% runoff

I have 3 seperate jars to mix things in seperatly before adding to the 5 gallon jug . 1 for the A, 1 for the B, & 1 for the silica . i do this cuz of the interactions & precipitaions that can happen .

question ... the powdered KB is NPK 2 45 28 the PK 13/14 is 0 10 11 ..... would i be ok with the KB or stick to the canna PK ?

thanx dude & sorry to keep bothering you .

 

[poohdo]

Good reading here. Thanks

 

[Snow Crash]

PK 13/14 is some really gnarly stuff. Even at 4ml per gallon it is pretty crazy. 6ml/gallon is probably too much, you'll probably want to cut that number in half.

KoolBloom Dry and KoolBloom Liquid are very different products and are not interchangeable. The Dry KoolBloom is more like a replacement for the Cannazym, just like how Hydroplex is, while the Liquid KoolBloom is more like a PK 13/14 replacement.

As you get closer to flowering you'll figure out right where you want your levels at.