List your current nute mix.

[YosemiteSam]

It does include my tap water. There is a center column for "adjustments".

Less distance for Ca to travel on my smaller than-yours plants .

We both do Calcium 25 every other week until fruit set. Plants really dig those "foliars".

They definitely dig that one. Have you grown a full cycle with it yet? I am curious what you see if it shortens your cycle at all.

Spurr...I am still liking the Albion stuff for things like B. You can foliar or add it to the tank...both ways work. http://www.albionminerals.com/plant-nutrition

Check out their archives for some interesting articles on B supplementation. Obviously it is advertising and I am sure they "designed" the experiments to compare against clearly deficient soils to make the results more dramatic...but if you are looking for a little edge...maybe.

Have you played with a Zn/B combo at all.

I personally think 2 ppm B is safe. Particularly when the plant is setting buds.

 

[spurr]

Spurr...I am still liking the Albion stuff for things like B. You can foliar or add it to the tank...both ways work. http://www.albionminerals.com/plant-nutrition

Yup, that is how I have used their Ca and Mg, before. In the near future I plan to run a few test grows with their amino acid chelate K, Ca, Mg, Mg, Zn, B, Cu and Fe. Their whole line.

The problem with Albion's products is using the non-OMRI liquid version is a must for K and independent B. According to Albion there is very little difference between the two models of Metalosate; but I am emailing an agronomist for Liberty Acres today or tomorrow, to ask about the difference in terms of chemistry.

I also have been looking further into using amino acid chelate fertilizers (i.e., "proteinate amino acid chelate", due use of partially hydrolyzed protein?) for fertigation water, even with high microbe populations. I know Albion claimed their Metalosate products are best used as foliar, because IIRC, according to you, Albion claimed bacteria would 'eat' the amino acid and 'undo' the chelate of the ion. I have always been of the opinion that using amino acid chelating agents is better than using EDTA, and probably DTPA and even EDDHA, for cations other than metals that have small pH ranges (ex., Fe, Mn, etc.). I have also been of the opinion that the claim of bacteria 'eating' the amino acid of the chelate was overstated.

I looked into the research conducted by, or for, Albion, that has been published. Nothing within any of the studies or reports (IIRC) showed data suggesting using amino acid chelate fertilizers in media (fertigation) was an ineffective way to apply amino acid chelate. Nor that amino acid chelate does not 'last long' in media for plant uptake, re bacteria 'eating' the amino acids.

I spoke with a plant physiologist or agronomist (Ph.D maybe, I cannot recall) on-staff at Grigg Bros. They are the makers/sellers of the amino acid Ca chelate "Calcium Complex 12%", that is meant to be used on soil in fertigation water (link to product). I was asking about the use their product, or any amino acid chelate product (I mentioned Albion, of which he was well aware) and issue of bacteria or fungi breaking down the amino acid and breaking the chelate/complex of the ion. He could not say definitively, as he was unaware of any published data, but his opinion after all the testing of their Ca amino acid chelate for soil application, is the issue of bacteria breaking down the amino acid, while valid, is over-stated by Albion, in terms of efficacy of root-zone application of amino acid chelate. He told me he thinks some breakdown will occur, but the rate and degree will not be extreme enough to invalidate the use amino acid chelates for root-zone application.

From what I have read and have been told, I think using amino acid chelate cations for fertilizers, whenever possible, is a good route. As well as relying upon fulvic-humic complex and citrate/citric acid complex. Even if the bond does not hold for a long time, or hold under low-or-high pH, it's better than nothing. Using synthetic chelate cations isn't necessarily a bad idea either, but using EDTA for all chelates (besides the DTPA and EDDHA used for Fe) could be a bad idea[1], IMO.

I think using amino acid chelate K, Ca, Mg, Mn, Zn, Cu, B and Fe would be ideal, as well as Fe chelated with EDDHA and DTPA and maybe the other metals (ex., Zn, Mg, etc.) chelated with either DTPA or EDDHA. To which I think an addition of non-chelate major cations would be wise (re Cation Exchange Capacity and Percent Base Saturation), maybe via calcium nitrate, MKP and potassium silicate, with a little magnesium sulfate ...

The problem, as I see it, with the use of synthetic chelates is that EDTA is the cheapest, so most lower-end brands of fertilizers use it to chelate metals (Mn, Zn, Fe, etc.). As well as EDDHA and DTPA for Fe, for a wider pH range of solubility for Fe. The problem with EDTA is two fold: (a) it bonds too well and has too strong of an affinity for Ca, it can hinder uptake of Ca if there is too much EDTA (and EDTA is not taken up by plant roots or leafs)[2]; and (b) it can cause phytotoxicity and lockout of some elements, ex., bonding to Ca instead of Fe so Fe becomes insoluble (falls out of solution), when in too high quantity.

[1] "Plant Nutrients"
by SMART Fertilizer Management software company
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/plant-nutrients

[2] "Iron Nutrition in Plants"
by SMART Fertilizer Management software company
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/index2.php?id=113
​

The following to figures are from the following web pages, respectively:

• http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/chelate-fertilizers
• http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/index2.php?id=113

Check out their archives for some interesting articles on B supplementation. Obviously it is advertising and I am sure they "designed" the experiments to compare against clearly deficient soils to make the results more dramatic...but if you are looking for a little edge...maybe.

I have looked at a few of them before, but I will make sure to go back and read all that seem relevant, thanks.

Have you played with a Zn/B combo at all.

Nope. And sadly, it seems Miracle Tree Care is out of business, at least temporarily. The other retail online sources of Metalosate (liquid and powder) that Albion reps pointed me to, was Liberty Acres and Crop Protection Services.

The shitty part is no businesses of which I am aware, sells the dry (powder) Metalosate by anything less than 4.4 lbs. Miracle Tree Care used to sell by the gram (or so), but now they're MIA. So that means a grower would have to buy each elements they wanted by powder at 4.4 lbs (each ~$70) or by liquid at 2.2 lbs (each ~$115) or 1 lb for B and Cu, IIRC.

I would love to do a group purchase and get all the elements offered in liquid form, from Liberty Acres. As well as get all Metalosate powder elements. I would prefer using the powder Metalosate, but the liquid offers more options of products. It's just too bad I don't live near a like minded group of people ...

I personally think 2 ppm B is safe. Particularly when the plant is setting buds.

FWIW, after looking over my notes on B, and finding most commonly used and suggested rate is ~0.3-1 ppm in (repeated) fertigation water, I think I will try to provide 1 ppm or less. So I think for my current 'off the self' mix, which has ~0.167 ppm B, I think I may use 0.15 gram/gallon of H3BO3 (orthoboric acid) to provide ~0.685 ppm B. So all together my mix should have ~0.853 ppm B.

Below are two pretty good articles on boron (and calcium), the first from the makers of SMART fertilizer creation program and the second from Greenhouse Grower Online Mag:

"Boron"
by SMART Fertilizer Management software company
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/boron

"Understanding Plant Nutrition: Environmentally Induced Plants"
Greenhouse Grower, August 2009
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=2418
byline:

by Paul Fisher and Bill Argo

Argo and Fisher pore over the details to systematically identify and correct common nutritional problems found in the greenhouse.

 

[spurr]

A quick note about synthetic chelating agents:

This is far from a complete list of benefits and drawbacks, and it's from memory. Any corrections, comments or input is welcome:

Some info: "chelating agents" on SCRIBD: http://www.scribd.com/doc/30107975/Chelating-Agents
​

EDTA:
As I wrote above, and because of the reasons I wrote above, it's best avoided if at all possible. Lower-end fertilizers will use EDTA when instead they could use DTPA or EDDHA. Most all fertilizers will provide Fe (iron) as Fe-EDTA, Fe-DTPA and Fe-EDDHA. The chelating agent EDTA is the least expensive of all synthetic chelating agents (ex,. EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, etc.).

DTPA:
Better than EDTA in most cases (for the reasons about EDTA above), and better in terms of plant uptake of the ions chelated with DTPA than EDTA. This chelating agent, DTPA, is often a better choice than EDDHA, ex., due to issues around plant uptake of ions; and in the case of Fe, both Fe-DTPA and Fe-EDDHA should be provided.

EDDHA:
Another high-end chelating agent, better than EDTA in most cases. DTPA can be a better choice than EDDHA in some situations. EDDHA is one of the most expensive synthetic chelating agents.

 

[spurr]

@ YS,

What was the chelating agent you and mullray were discussing? It was from wood pulp, sulfate-something? Also, IIRC you found an online store selling element chelates using that wood pulp-sourced chelating agent, as ferzilers. Do you still have the link to that store? IIRC, that same store also sold citric acid (or citrate) chelates of elements, as fertilizers. I am interested in both chelating agents and would like to see that web site again, thanks!

 

[YosemiteSam]

K and B are not true chelates for Albion. They call them amino acid complexes because of the +1 valences of these two elements.

That is why they are offered only as liquids. They use a preservative that keeps them from being OMRI listed.

That 2 kilo package of dry Ca is a jug that looks exactly like a liquid nute bottle. And the dry powder is as fine as flour and stinks like a mofo. Makes it horrible to weigh out. Not a fan of the packaging...but the product I am loving.

Once I settle on everything else I plan to start exploring some short time use of bumps of B and Zn at the onset of budding. There could be some gain there.

 

[greenhaus]

FFoF FFhf 50/50

veg:
roots excelurator - H&G
bio grow - biobizz
calmag - botanicare

flower:
bio grow - biobizz
botanicare bloom plus
botanicare sweet
molasses

doing it for a few years now with great results.

i will be trying some advanced nutrients this run also.

SOIL ALL THE WAY

 

[spurr]

K and B are not true chelates for Albion. They That is why they are offered only as liquids. They use a preservative that keeps them from being OMRI listed.
call them amino acid complexes because of the +1 valences of these two elements.

That is why they are offered only as liquids. They use a preservative that keeps them from being OMRI listed.

Good point, I forgot about the site biding of B, etc. Good info on the preservative too, thanks.

That 2 kilo package of dry Ca is a jug that looks exactly like a liquid nute bottle. And the dry powder is as fine as flour and stinks like a mofo. Makes it horrible to weigh out. Not a fan of the packaging...but the product I am loving.

I have only used the powder before, the Ca, Mg, Mn. And luckily when I ordered it I got the small 1 gram packages so it wasn't hard to weigh. I will be ordering the powder soon, at least the Ca and Mg, for foliar spraying (but I also use CaNO3 and MgNO3) during veg and pre-flowering (something we have discussed in the past and something we both seem to find very beneficial). Your input on the packaging is of value to me, thanks. Makes me not want to order it (kidding)

 

[spurr]

@ all,

Here are two good sources of articles on the topic of fertilizers, from SMART! Fertilizer Management software company:


"Tools and Tips"
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/tips-and-info


"Agricultural Articles" (mixing ferts, fert ratios, soil, soilless, hydro, etc)
http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles

 

[bullybigbud]

MaxiBloom 1 tsp/gal

 

[spurr]

Boron:

Two more good reads on the topic, from academia:


"Essay 5.1: Boron funtions in plants: Looking beyond the cell wall"
I., Bonilla, D., Blevins and L., Bolanos
From the online companion to the book "Plant Physiology, Fifth Edition" by Lincoln Taiz and Eduardo Zeiger
http://5e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=&id=403


"Role of boron in vascular plants and response mechanisms to boron stresses"
M.B. Herrea-Rodriguez, A., Gonzalez-Fontes, J., Rexach, J.J., Camacho-Cristobal, J.M. Maldonado and M.T., Navarro-Gochicoa
Plant Stress Plant Stress 4 (Special Issue 2), 2010, pp. 115-122
Global Science Books (2010)
(full text paper) http://www.globalsciencebooks.info/JournalsSup/images/Sample/PS_4(SI2)115-122o.pdf

 

[spurr]

Cool ... I went out for Subway and came back with dinner and boric acid

One of my local pharmacies sells it, on the self near eye medicine. Not a great deal at ~$5 for 4 oz., but it's high quality (human grade). I think I will be using ~1 ppm of B starting next time I fertilize the plants. I will use hot water to dissolve the boric acid, before adding to fertigation tank.

 

[JOJO420]

For my mother plants
15ml MotherPlant A and 15ml Motherplant B
5ml Magical

For Veg Plants:
15ml Cns-17
5ml Magical
sometimes I feed my veg plants the mother plant mix. They love it.

Bloom
varying amounts of PBP Bloom
5ml Magical till wk 2-3, than none.
maybe some guano, I used roots organic npk last time. strong stuff, dont need much.

 

[spurr]

Thanks for the update spurr. That was my assumption for your feeding schedule. I just thought it would be good include that with the nute mixes on this page. Over fertilizing was never an issue for me but I met many newer growers who see a formula and assume they use that with every watering.

I use 50/50 RO water as well and have a similar alkalinity of my tap water. Before 50/50 RO I was filtering through peat to remove chlorine and chloramine. I was just debating with myself whether or not I should be doing something like adding Ascorbic Acid to remove those from the tap half of my water mix. Based on what you wrote I am assuming you feel they should be left alone for a source of chlorine despite the addition of chloramine as well.

That is my current line of thinking, but I'm not sure it's the best route. I need to look into whether plant can using chloramines in place of chlorine, and/or conversion of chloramines into chlorine (or other forms) by root exudates and/or microbial exudates.

My plants do not 'look' better when I remove all chloramines via ascorbic acid vs not removing chloramines from the 50% tap water ... ex., citric acid can 'remove' Cl via chemistry based process, and I think citric acid can do something similar to choloramines; and citric acid is a very common root exudate and often found as exudates from some type of microbes.

If I were growing organically I would remove the chloramines from tap water because they can hinder the microbes I would be trying to cultivate. That said, Cl can be found upwards of 10 ppm in top soils closer to oceans; Cl is ubiquitous in nature, often as NaCl. Plants use Cl, mostly within chloroplasts, it is helpful to them.

Well, it turns out I was being dumb, and chloramines are def. not good to provide to plants (granted a little won't hurt; but it won't help either). So I will start using ascorbic acid on my 50/50 RO/tap water next time, to remove the chloramines.

 

[spurr]

Here is something I thought was worth posting, it got me thinking when I first read it:


From:

Basic Fertilizer Programs for Containerized Greenhouse Crops
U. Mass Floraculture Dept.
http://extension.umass.edu/floricul...lizer-programs-containerized-greenhouse-crops

... An individual grower may need to "fine-tune" these recommendations to fit his/her conditions, but in doing so the following factors which interact to affect the response of containerized plants to fertilizer should to be kept in mind:

...

4. Frequency of application. How many times water-soluble fertilizer is applied is often overlooked as a factor in developing a good fertilizer program. What does the term "constant liquid feed" (CLF) really mean - every watering, once a week, or twice a week? At a given ppm level, more frequent applications will lead to a higher fertility level simply because fertilizer is applied more often.

5. Volume of fertilizer solution applied. As the volume of water-soluble fertilizer increases the quantity of nutrients delivered to the plant also increases. Doubling the volume applied also doubles the amount of each nutrient potentially available to the plant.

6. Leaching fraction. Leaching fraction is the proportion of fertilizer solution or irrigation water applied that is lost from the plant container by leaching. The lower the leaching fraction, the greater the quantity of nutrients and salts retained in the growth medium. Leaching fraction is strongly affected by volume applied (i.e., factor 4).

...

 

[spurr]

In case anyone is interested, I updated my test mix charts to add boron (B) from boric acid, as well as I had to correct a couple of wrong calculations for Dutch Master Gold Range Silica.

Here is the post with the updated charts: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4482207&postcount=69

 

[woolybear]

i am using jack's hydroponic 5-12-26 + calcium nitrate in veg, plus jack's blossom booster 10-30-20 in flower. I definitely think the booster helps!

 

[krunchbubble]

SPURR - what do you think about the ingredient tricantonal?

http://www.ehydroponics.com/blog/triacontanol-increases-yields

 

[spurr]

I used ~0.12 ppm of triacontanol (TRIA) as foliar spray about three days ago.

I have used up to ~25 ppm TRIA, but found after more testing 10 ppm and lower is probably better. I have a hunch that over 1 ppm isn't ideal, and that is born out in studies on other plants with TRIA over 1 ppm.

I like TRIA, but it has to be applied correctly or can make plants stretch. It's best to use actual TRIA, and mix to your goal ppm, than use a product that supposedly has TRIA. TRIA does many things for the plants, but one of the biggest is boosting rate of photosynthesis.

I wrote a good bit about TRIA and other PGRs in a thread in the science sub-forum I stared. I provided lots of references and a good bit of info about TRIA. You may like to check that out.

FWIW, I have doubts all the of the following products, taken from that blog post, have TRIA. And even if they do, it can be supplying it in insufficient or excessive quantities:

Some products that contain triacontanol are Super Thrive, GreenPlanet Nutrient’s Massive and W-8, Canna’s Boost and Bio-Boost, Advanced Nutrient’s Nirvana and Iguana Juice, as well as Down to Earth’s Alfalfa Meal. Alfalfa meal and can be directly amended to your soil or brewed as a tea. If you want to make an alfalfa tea, use two cups of alfalfa meal to 2.5 gallons of water. Steep the alfalfa meal for 2 to 3 days and water in with your nutrients or add it to your other biological and fungal teas. Alfalfa tea and triacontanol in general is more effective used as a foliar spray. While it can be watered in to the root system, you get a lot more miles using it as a foliar application.

The tricky part about using TRIA in powder form, not liquid bottle from a fert company, is dissolving TRIA, because it doesn't dissolve in water alone. I wrote about various ways to dissolve TRIA, one of the best for us is using warm polysorbate 20.

FWIW, below are directions for a test I just did on dissolving TRIA with commonly used products. The quantities listed below are not exact, I meant to do it that way to show it can be easier then using a diamond scale, ordering polysorbate 20, etc.

Using a better surfactant then yucca extract is highly suggested. I used yucca extract as a test for TRIA. Normally I do not use yucca extract.

I am out of polysorbate 20, so I tried using yucca extract instead (as a surfactant and emulsifier). I tested adding ~2 ml ThermX-70 to ~400 ml hot distilled water (~100-110'F) within a blender cup, then I added ~0.054 gram TRIA (as 85% pure TRIA from super-grow; one scoop of larger spoon) and blended the mix for about 5 minutes. I then let the solution sit until it settled* and looked for precipitants (TRIA out of solution). I did not see any un-dissolved TRIA, so I then poured the 400 ml TRIA solution into a container with 3,385.4 ml distilled water.

To apply the TRIA solution as foliar I had an accurate gallon (3,785.4 ml) of distilled water, from which I removed 38 ml. Then I mixed up the solution of TRIA and removed 38 ml, and injected that 38 ml into the distilled water. Oh yea, before the 38 ml of TRIA solution was added to the second gallon of water I added 1.25 ml ThermX-70 to the gallon of distilled water and the water was heated to 80'F.

The math is below (I hope it's correct, I did it fast), in case you want to do something similar and want to change ppm, water volume, TRIA purity, etc:

• ((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6 = 12.125 ppm TRIA in first gallon of water (aka 'stock solution')

• (((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6)0.01 = 0.12 ppm TRIA in second gallon of water (aka 'working solution')

* ThermX-70 is yucca extract, used as a surfactant and emulsifier, from the saponins in the extract. When mixed foam forms in the water from the saponins.

 

[krunchbubble]

I used ~0.12 ppm of TRIA as foliar spray about three days ago.

I have used up to ~25 ppm TRIA, but found after more testing 10 ppm and lower is probably better. I have a hunch that over 1 ppm isn't ideal, and that is born out in studies on other plants with TRIA over 1 ppm.

I like TRIA, but it has to be applied correctly or can make plants stretch. It's best to use actual TRIA, and mix to your goal ppm, than use a product that supposedly has TRIA. TRIA does many things for the plants, but one of the biggest is boosting rate of photosynthesis.

I wrote a good bit about TRIA and other PGRs in a thread in the science sub-forum I stared. I provided lots of references and a good bit of info about TRIA. You may like to check that out.

FWIW, I have doubts all the of the following products, taken from that blog post, have TRIA. And even if they do, it can be supplying it in insufficient or excessive quantities:

The tricky part about using TRIA in powder form, not liquid bottle from a fert company, is dissolving TRIA, because it doesn't dissolve in water alone. I wrote about various ways to dissolve TRIA, one of the best for us is using warm polysorbate 20.

FWIW, below are directions for a test I just did on dissolving TRIA with commonly used products. The quantities listed below are not exact, I meant to do it that way to show it can be easier then using a diamond scale, ordering polysorbate 20, etc.

Using a better surfactant then yucca extract is highly suggested. I used yucca extract as a test for TRIA. Normally I do not use yucca extract.

I am out of polysorbate 20, so I tried using yucca extract instead (as a surfactant and emulsifier). I tested adding ~2 ml ThermX-70 to ~400 ml hot distilled water (~100-110'F) within a blender cup, then I added ~0.054 gram TRIA (as 85% pure TRIA from super-grow; one scoop of larger spoon) and blended the mix for about 5 minutes. I then let the solution sit until it settled* and looked for precipitants (TRIA out of solution). I did not see any un-dissolved TRIA, so I then poured the 400 ml TRIA solution into a container with 3,385.4 ml distilled water.

To apply the TRIA solution as foliar I had an accurate gallon (3,785.4 ml) of distilled water, from which I removed 38 ml. Then I mixed up the solution of TRIA and removed 38 ml, and injected that 38 ml into the distilled water. Oh yea, before the 38 ml of TRIA solution was added to the second gallon of water I added 1.25 ml ThermX-70 to the gallon of distilled water and the water was heated to 80'F.



* ThermX-70 is yucca extract, used as a surfactant and emulsifier, from the saponins in the extract. When mixed foam forms in the water from the saponins.

WOW!!! The Info!!

i am using Top Max and was going to switch over to Massive, since its basically the same thing, but with TRIA. maybe i shouldn't now and go with a powdered form instead and mix with Top Max, but Top Max is so expensive!

what do you think of Top Max as a flavor, smell enhancer? and is there other comparable products which may be cheaper? its cost me around $75 a week to use right now.....

 

[spurr]

I edited my post after you read and quoted it, I think. Ex., I added this and some other bits of info:

The math is below (I hope it's correct, I did it fast), in case you want to do something similar and want to change ppm, water volume, TRIA purity, etc:

• ((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6 = 12.125 ppm TRIA in first gallon of water (aka 'stock solution')
• (((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6)0.01 = 0.12 ppm TRIA in second gallon of water (aka 'working solution')

Are you sure Massive has TRIA? I think many products that are claimed to have TRIA really do not. I think mixing TRIA as needed is the way to go, from powder. I am unsure of TRIA self-life, in solution, so I am hesitant to use TRIA products that are in liquid form.

Is Massive a liquid? I have never heard about it. If you know Massive has TRIA, do you know the application rate of TRIA if following label directions?

I do not know anything about Top Max, nor its ingredients. Who makes Top Max?