Help me find flaws in my small RDWC system!

[hippydan]

Hello everyone! I'm about a week into my first indoor grow and have already decided my 12$ rubbermaid setup just isn't worth the headache. Two days ago I read blazeoneup's RDWC tutorial a few times to get it down to a point where I knew the system in and out and not just memorizing how to put it together. I'm going to be building a smaller, similar setup, using only 4 buckets. I'm hoping a few experienced RDWC members will be able to help find flaws in my system before it gets put together this Thursday/Friday. The overall goal was to build a simple yet effective system, and still be somewhat modular so I can take it apart and easily move it when the need arises. I am not living in a permanent location and plan on moving after my current grow is finished.

I already have the following:

*DR60 2'x2'x5' grow tent, I figure I'm going to have fun trying to fit the 4 buckets in there, plus the feed/return lines. Where there's a will, there's a way!
*250w Lumatek dimmable ballast w/ 250w HPS Plantmax bulb (it's a cheapo bulb that supposedly has an improved blue spectrum)
*GH dual-diaphragm 4 port air pump, 20L/min 320gal/hour
*4" Vortex inline blower w/ CAN9000 carbon filter for exhaust
*2x - 4" axial fans for air circulation inside the tent
*NutraDip trimeter for pH/TDS/temp, seems to work decent enough although the RF from the digital ballast throws the TDS reading out of whack while the light is fired up
*50L of hydroton and lots of rockwool starter cubes
*GH Micro/Bloom nutrients

Here's a quick list of what I ordered:

4x - 5 gallon buckets (black) w/ 10" netpot/lid combos
2x - 3/4" elbows
2x - 3/4" tees
6x - 3/4" thru-hulls (E&F fittings) for return lines
1x - 1/2" thru-hulls (E&F fittings) for the feed line
2x - 1/2" elbows
1x - 1/2" plug for feed line
30' - 3/4" poly tubing (black) for return lines
20' - 1/2" poly tubing (black) for feed line
100' - 1/4" spaghetti tubing (black) for feed/air lines to buckets
46x - 1" worm clamps
8x - 1/4" barbed elbows
4x - 1/4" straight barbs
2x - 3/4" E&F screens (they didn't sell them separate, only in a bundle and I was already overpaying for the thru-hulls and didn't feel like spending another 20$ for 2 more screens)
1x - 1/2" E&F screen
1x - 140gph MAG2 water pump

Now I realize this equipment list may not mean a lot considering y'all don't know the exact layout of my room/tent/system, but I figured it may save a few questions later on so it wouldn't hurt to add.

Some quick notes:
*Buckets will be top fed with a 1/4" line coming out of a 1/2" feed line, supplied by the water pump.
*3/4" return lines will be at the bottom of the buckets returning back to the reservoir.

*Water temps hold steady 68-69 during lights off, 70 during lights on. I have no trouble keeping pH in the 5.5-6.0 range.
*Tent temps ~75 at lights off, peaking ~85 lights on. Lots of air circulation inside the tent and when summer comes I will have A/C to help keep temps under control.
*Relative humidity is low at 20-25% but I am going to pick up a humidifier.

Please excuse my horrible MSPaint skills. Be aware things are not necessarily to scale, I just wanted to get a close approximation of what I'll be doing out to you guys. I tried using Google Sketchup like Anti's beautiful work, but alas I did not have the motivation to learn how to use the program efficiently.

Question, Air: I already have a GH dual diaphragm air pump (4 outlets, 20L/min, 320gal/h), and was wondering if it was necessary to pump air into each individual bucket or if I could just throw all 4 lines into the controller reservoir which will be a 20+gallon rubbermaid tote for now. I plan on upgrading to something larger in the future. Each feed line will be supplying water into the top of the bucket, and it will free fall down to the water level. I understand this is an extremely small "waterfall" effect, but will it add a little more dissolved oxygen to the buckets, plus with all kinds of air being pumped into the reservoir by my pump, do you think it will be ok? Should I be worried about "dead spots" in the buckets, especially when they fill up with roots? This is the only reason I can come up with that gives me a reason why I should leave the airlines in each individual bucket.

Question, water pump: Can I run the Mag2 pump outside of the reservoir to help keep water temps down? Would it be worth the trouble? I'm a fan of the KISS method whenever possible.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, feel free to ask questions or offer any kind of help.

 

[Hydrosun]

F the humidifier. If I know anything about DWC and plants is they produce their own humidity. I have to run dehuis in the desert.

That being said, floariar spraying of plants until your house reaches the 40%RH area doesn't hurt. In fact when I can pay enough attention to spray the ladies 3 times a week they are in heaven.



PS. On air, I'd say the bucket is 10x better than the res. Sure I throw a stone in the res when I have extra stones and lines, but that is just for show. Waterfall and bucket airstone is where it is at.

 

[hippydan]

Thanks for the quick reply Hydrosun, I've seen some of your posts here on IC and respect what you do! I was under the impression if RH is too low the plants "waste" energy sucking water up to keep up with all the transpiration. I planned on getting a dehuey regardless as it's very dry here on a daily basis and waking up with a sore throat every morning gets old fast.

 

[Hydrosun]

Thanks for the quick reply Hydrosun, I've seen some of your posts here on IC and respect what you do! I was under the impression if RH is too low the plants "waste" energy sucking water up to keep up with all the transpiration. I planned on getting a dehuey regardless as it's very dry here on a daily basis and waking up with a sore throat every morning gets old fast.

I don't know about WASTEing energy in soaking up water and shooting it out the leaves. This action is HUGELY important in building the plant. I like them running at 150% when they are vegging IF they look like they are up for the challenge! In fact my lady can handle higher PPM in veg than is optimal in flower.

All that being said if the plant is driving the PPM UP and RH DOWN then you need to back off on the amt of nutes. I still haven't been convinced that PROCESSING a large amount of hydro is bad.

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Dan,
You sound like you got it worked out man. Youve already answered your own Q, yes you wanna create as high an aerobic environment as possible(ie-Air to each bucket), keeping solution temps constant can be a problem with RDWC bucket type systems, esp in summer months, so a Chiller might come in handy to regulate solution temps. Your AC is gonna help big time with that, but im sure you'll come across this issue at some point. Frozen bottle run works in emergencies, but is a right fkin nuisance.
Top feed lines would improve DO, but as the drop is only a couple of inches in the bucket, it would be minimal, if anything at all.
Get yaself some airstones in the buckets bro, disc type are perfect for buckets, 4 buckets with that GH Pump, the roots will love that, its gonna be like a mini jacuzzi & highly aerated, which is what your after(aerobic conditions). Yes, worry about dead spots, thats how you get infection & attack from pathogens etc(anerobic conditions).
Not sure with your Mag pump but check its product spec sheet/instruction, it'll say if its compatible id of thought man.
What nutes & addys are you planning on running?
I think your gonna have fun man, DWC is explosive, easy to manage, & very rewarding.
I like your Tote btw, im a tote grower myself, i prefer the bigger area for roots/solution temps etc, but buckets are great too. The bigger ones, 7Gal(US) as apposed to the 4.5 Gal(US), would be the way to go bro. I realise space may be an issue for you, either will work just the bigger the better imo.
G'Luck Bro!

 

[hippydan]

Scrogerman! I will place the airstones in the buckets as per Hydrosun's and your suggestion! I had a feeling it would be better that way. Will check the specs on the Mag pump. I plan on using the Lucas formula, GH Micro/Bloom. The idea was to keep it bare minimum for the first few runs to save cash and have a better comparison of results for future grows, would anyone suggest any MUST HAVE additives in addition to the GH Micro/Bloom? Really excited to see the explosive growth in hydro that everyone talks about!

If all goes well, I plan on going aquaponic in the future. Will add a 50+ gallon res for the fish and work it into the system. That's still months away though!

Thanks Scrogerman!

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Dan,
Ill make a very good sugestion, 'Ionic' one-part nute line, H2o2 & a bit of PK, some of the best yields ive ever had were from that very basic recipe. It really is fool proof. Growth is very impressive & lush, 'Ionic' is very compatible with H2o2 & PK 13/14. You cant go wrong mate.

Liquid Silicon(potassium silicate) is another addy ill recommend!

 

[hippydan]

Thanks again! I'll definitely check out those nutes/addies.

 

[tr1ck_]

Hey dan, I have seen a few people recommend the ionic as well. I think One of them was Heath Robinson who grew some amazing looking trees in RDWC with just basic ionic hardwater nutrients and tap water.

 

[hippydan]

I'm a little familiar with Heath's grows, and if it's good enough for him it's damn well good enough for me. However the two online shops I use (Canadian stores so I save myself the trouble of getting things shipped across the border) don't carry the Ionic stuff. However they do have the liquid silica and I've added it to my list for next order.

 

[Scrogerman]

The GH will serve you well im sure buddy. Theres a few great mineral based nute lines out there that are compatible with H2o2. Not sure about the GH line, but if its compatible bro id add that to my list too, correct solution temps(68f) & High Aerobic conditions to the rootzone/constantly & you'll be on fire. Great additve, with multiple benefits the Silicon, Budlink ive been using which is good/clean, mixes v-well/easily. PotSil is another liquid silicon product, ive looked at, cheaper & stronger solution, but not sure if you can get it in the US. Stay away from shit like AN's 'Rhinoskin', they've made it weak as piss iirc. No surprises there!!!.

Gotta luv this shit:http://www.growthtechnology.com/liquidoxygen.asp

Alot of people alternatively run Bleach to achieve sterility or run a 'Dead Res', reports seem to be very good on the stuff, but i see H2o2 as a much superior product with many many more benefits, not to mention the DO saturation etc. you just dont get that with bleach. You can buy Oxy+ test strips but not sure if there any good/efficient etc.

Good Luck with your grow man!

 

[tr1ck_]

Since you guys are talking about DO, this guy is running tests with an expensive DO meter now. He tests various airstones, and h2o2, His results were odd, either way here is the link: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=206119

 

[newmexgrow]

Question, water pump: Can I run the Mag2 pump outside of the reservoir to help keep water temps down? Would it be worth the trouble? I'm a fan of the KISS method whenever possible.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, feel free to ask questions or offer any kind of help.

I use the blazezone setup, with external pumps..I ended up getting a chiller in anticipation of the summer high temps, but I prefer not to use a submersible pump, since I don't like electric items in water when I have to be around it often. Besides that my external pumps are 50 watt rated..and they do get warm in the air..I can imagine that would be a good thing in the winter ( I had some startup problems as the water was too cold!), but in the summer you want to keep things in range. External pumps cost a little bit more too

Use GFCI outlets for your water pump if you are going to use a submersible, but I like running the pumps external, with a small fan keeping the motors in a breeze.

In regards to air pumps..the bigger the better and by all means use a stone or two in your res. When the roots start growing the in bucket stones can be a little compromised..so the more air the better. I bought too many air pumps until I found the sunleaves monster pump..a little noisy, but it move lots of air and can deal with long runs and lots of buckets. The GH pumps may be good if you sleep next to them, but they were nearly useless in my setup. I use them for supplemental air for the res systems now.

I have a lot of redundency built into my setup..that's just how I roll.

I wired a simple thermostat into my setup so if the room temp hit's 95, it shuts down everything and trips a telephone dialer to let me know there is trouble in paradise.

 

[hippydan]

Stuffed arrived today, a day ahead of schedule. Go Canada Post! Turns out the submersible(it's submersible only) pump I got is a Mag1.5 and is a bit smaller than I had imagined. Probably going to order an Eco pump like blazeoneup uses, it's only 30$ so no big deal. I can always use the smaller pump for something else later. All that's left is to run to the store for a 1&1/4 hole saw drill bit.

On the air pumps, I was thinking of just running bare air line into the buckets and throwing away the air stones.

Thanks again for your thoughts, everyone!

edit: The 10" lid/netpot combos I got, when sitting on the 5gallon buckets the netpots hangs 1/3rd of the way down into the bucket. My water line is obviously going to have to be lower than the netpots correct? Would it be better to get some smaller lid/netpots (say 5-6") so the roots have more room? I'm only using a 250w HPS, are the 10" netpots a little overkill?

 

[catman]

Interesting setup hippydan. I'm considering purchasing a DR60 II and trying something similar. Would love to hear some updates from ya.

Each feed line will be supplying water into the top of the bucket, and it will free fall down to the water level. I understand this is an extremely small "waterfall" effect, but will it add a little more dissolved oxygen to the buckets, plus with all kinds of air being pumped into the reservoir by my pump, do you think it will be ok?

The stream from the feed line will pick up dissolved oxygen as it spread over the surface area of the hydrotron.

Maybe I've missed an ultimate verdict on air pumps in these systems, but from what I understood from Heath, air pumps introduce only small amounts of dissolved oxygen compared to having a bypass in the res. A bypass being just some plumbing that sprays out water above the surface directly back in to the res.

On the air pumps, I was thinking of just running bare air line into the buckets and throwing away the air stones.
edit: The 10" lid/netpot combos I got, when sitting on the 5gallon buckets the netpots hangs 1/3rd of the way down into the bucket. My water line is obviously going to have to be lower than the netpots correct?

A bare air line will just create large and strong bubbles that will bounce off roots and go to the surface. For oxygen to be dissolved into the water for the plants to use them, the bubbles must be small and there must be many of them. The actual benefit of air being pumped into the water seems to be that it breaks the surface tension at the surface which allows air in the atmosphere to be absorbed. Curiously enough, in the DO Meter thread the bare line had the highest levels of DO, but my thinking is this would be because air diffusers restrict the pump and thus effectively move less air which breaks less surface tension.

The water line is very important. If roots are exposed to too much air they will form with a big knot like structure that drops down instead of branching out and filling their container. If you track down some of Heath's threads your bound to run into pictures demonstrating this.

I've only read about this stuff so I can't speak with the utmost confidence. I do try to read and understand the words of some real experts at this craft. Is there anything to take pictures of for you to share with us? Would love to see!