Any way I can do this? I want MORE air in DWC!

[fireburner23]

I should point out that using a HHO generator will saturate the water with oxygen bringing up the levels of DO in the water above what a air-pump would be able to do, even if your water temps go up from the HHO generator, the HHO will be able to saturate the water with so much oxygen that you should be able to keep the bad bacteria in check.

I think that it would be beneficial to have a chiller and the HHO generator working together, but that is me.

I am in the research process to building the HHO generator from the cannabis-world link out of titanium. I'll probably post a separate thread as a how-to thread, hopefully adding on to the cannabis-world thread and giving those here at ICMAG the added benefit of levels of DO above 100%.

I've decided that a HHO generator is far too much work. So those who said that a airpump is enough, fuck yeah....you guys were right.

In addition to a blower or a airpump, I would add on a microbubble airstone instead of a regular one and a venturi injector. That should supply enough oxygen to the water. If it isn't, then fuck it.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Lower res temps = more DO.
An airstone with a finer bubble stream will also add more than one with larger bubbles.

Those idiots over at cw trying to make HHO generators have no idea what can of worms they are opening.
Lets take a flammable gas (hydrogen), mix it with an oxidizer (oxygen), and allow it to build in our grow room with no sort of explosion proof electrical fittings.
With all three legs of the fire triangle present, they will be lucky if no one gets killed when their trailer burns down.

Stick with whats proven to work. Airstones and pumps, powerheads or waterfalls.

 

[Scrogerman]

DWC to me means simplicity. you will not see enough of an increase in Dissolved oxygen by adding complexity, not worth it. recirculating is the best, because a lot of the dissolved oxygen is concentrated at the top portion of the water closest to the surface.

best to have your two "tubs" connected by at least a 1 inch pipe at the bottom, then have a 1/2" pump circulating water from the bottom of one container to the top of the other 24/7, creating a waterfall. good circulation keeps dissolved oxygen as well as nutrient mixture uniform throughout. i been doin recirc. dwc for years now.

water temps vary for me between 60 in the winter 78 in the summer. no noticable difference in growth either way, plenty of DO and beneficial bacteria to keep the anaerobes in check.

keep it simple mofo's!

You cant get more DO than the atmoshphere will allow at normal pressure, 7-9ppms approx is about as much as your gonna get, unless you add/inject either H2o2 or O2 into solution to satuarte/supersaturate your solution to much higher ppm levels, i belive canna can actively use 30-100 ppms of DO, & you aint gonna do that with any waterfall, circulation, bubble etc etc, the HHO is a very valid way of doing it, but very expensive to buy a rig, self build is a great idea(dangerous-maybe), albeit still expensive, but nowhere in comparison to buying ready made, silly expensive. I see H2o2/oxydator tec as a much cheaper easier alternative that would achieve similar results. The growth boost i see visually when i add H2o2 is crazy, higher DO = increased nute uptake every time.

Too many people into spending £$£$£$ on addys & DO is well overlooked, if you want massive plants & bigger yields, increase nute uptake by increasing DO. H2o2 is not complexity, nor is the HHO, thats just not viable to buy cause the manafactured units are too expensive like i said. H2o2 all the way for me!

Peace!

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Scroggerman,

You are correct. Maximum DO saturation for water at 60F (15.5C) is just under 10 mg/L (ppm) and water at 78F (25.5C) is 8.1 mg/L. You aren't going to do better than the maximum saturation values unless the laws of physics and chemistry are not applicable where you reside. I dont care if you run a 250 cfm air compressor as an aerator. You are not going to increase DO beyond it's saturation point.

Factors such as atmospheric pressure and nutrient concentration are the other factors at play here. Water at higher elevations will have less DO (sorry CO growers) than water at sea level, and water with higher nutrient concentraions will also have less DO, because oxygen is more easily dissolved in water with less disolved and suspended solids.

 

[Scrogerman]

You got it Sarg!
Where did you get your info man? link?

65f-75f, optimal being 68f i believe(for DO), as you go either side(up & down) of those Temps DO decreases i believe. This is one of my favorite subjects. many growers overlook the possibilities of increasing DO to optimal levels 30-100ppms(MJ's usuable levels of DO in sol), Im gonna be doing my upmost to get to this level & still be able to use certain Organic based additives. Optimal levels of DO will increase Nute uptake to optimal levels, Bigger, faster,healthier plants with bigger yields, no doubt about it!

Cheers!

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Scroggerman,
The DO saturation values are from Missouri DNR.
Here you go.
http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/esp/wqm/DOSaturationTable.htm
The lower the temp, the more DO. There's a point though where lower res temps will inhibit growth. I can run my res at 60F with no inhibition of growth.
If you think about it, most plants pull moisture from the ground which is a constant 58F approximately 2-3 feet below grade. I dont think I'd want to try growing in a 50F res, nor could I without a chiller.

 

[fireburner23]

The thing I haven't been able to really find is how to supersaturate the water with oxygen cheaply.

Far as I can tell, these are several possible solutions:

1. Using an oxygen concentrator (or Pressure Swing Adsorption (PSA) technology, like the Oxygen Generating Systems Intl. (OGSI) http://www.ogsi.com/og_20.php, which goes for around $3,500 with a 30 gallon tank) with a oxygen injector system (a venturi injector from Mazzei). (my personal favorite for the large grows or multi-room grows)
2. Breaking down H202 (probably want to use something above 3% or 6% H202), like the Oxydator
3. Electrolysis
4. Using a oxygen airtank canister with a oxygen injector system (mazzei venturi injectors)
5. increasing the pressure and contact time of oxygen with water (mazzei venturi injector or some other device to pressurize the chamber)

Which one of these do you think is the cheapest and why? Did I miss something or make a mistake?

Here is a link that the EPA did on H202. They wanted to see if H202 could be used as a supplemental source for oxygen http://www.rnasinc.com/fck_files/File/EPA_600_2-90_006.pdf

 

[Scrogerman]

Scroggerman,
The DO saturation values are from Missouri DNR.
Here you go.
http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/esp/wqm/DOSaturationTable.htm
The lower the temp, the more DO. There's a point though where lower res temps will inhibit growth. I can run my res at 60F with no inhibition of growth.
If you think about it, most plants pull moisture from the ground which is a constant 58F approximately 2-3 feet below grade. I dont think I'd want to try growing in a 50F res, nor could I without a chiller.

That link/chart is a cracker mate, N1 Sarg! slightly different from the ones i had, but thats a brilliant one bro!

Its a trade off, as you can see 68f-72f would be optimal, you gotta think of optimal root temp Vs optimal DO. Cold roots slow growth to a crawl as you know. With an O2/DO, super/saturated solution, you could run slightly warmer sol temps which is gonna make the roots/plants happier, just better allround imo. Im running 30-100ppms DO on my next Hydro Run for sure bro, just not sure 100% how im gonna get there yet.
Ive even been thinking of various ways to DIY an Oxydator, on a similar level to DIY Co2 Bubbler. its keeping the H2o2 out of direct contact with the main res solution, so i can run organic based addys that im after!
For me 65f is the absolute minimum solution temp, any colder & roots aint gonna be happy, in water culture/hydro anyway. 60f- 62f & my hand starts to freeze, cant be doing roots much cop!

N1 sarg, Top Bannana! Cheers!

 

[Scrogerman]

What do you think of a H2o2 Bubbler? i think it would work man! Not sure but its similar to what an Oxydator does anyway! thoughts anyone! certainly cheaper than trying to use a liquid O2 rig!

 

[zachrockbadenof]

can i just lay an add. airline into my waterfarms nute solution for more air, or do i need to use an airstone???

 

[hippydan]

can i just lay an add. airline into my waterfarms nute solution for more air, or do i need to use an airstone???

Both will work, however just tossing in the airline without an airstone will create big bubbles that just float up and out of the water, without actually dissolving into the water. This doesn't help as much as oxygen actually being in the water. That's what they're discussing here.

edit: Apparently I was wrong about this, continue reading the thread to learn why!

 

[thinkin]

Crazy idea and not complete
but it might work for someone.
As long as you have enough airline,
you can remotely put airpumps almost anywhere...

DWC:
Anyone consider putting the airpumps inside a fridge or freezer? or other COLD location.
What kind of Oxygen levels in the fridge/freezer?
small oxygen DIY setup inside?

Objective:
Direct cold air injection!

 

[StealthDragon]

a question... we have 24 waterfarms going, want to add more air.. if we get the eco+ comm7, and get a few manifolds, to make 24outlets, and run an airline into the bottom of each bucket will this work... ie will it supply enough extra air

and if it does supply suff air, do we put an airstone on the bottom, or can we just leave the airline dangle-ing at the bottom in the water/nute mixture..

thanks

I think you would get very uneven air distribution between that many lines. You would probably be better off with multiple smaller pumps.

What about something like, as previously mentioned, a "mixer" hanging in the res. The motor could be external so there would be no heat. It could probably be done with a very small motor too...I'm thinking like an inverted blender hanging in the rez creating a whirlpool.

All this talk about injecting..how bout just physically mixing it with moving parts?

 

[Haps]

I do not know if injecting o2 will help, or not, it is an interesting concept. Old folks have a variety of oxy concentators, that might be right sized for this application, and should be available used to try. Just a thought.

 

[fireburner23]

I do not know if injecting o2 will help, or not, it is an interesting concept. Old folks have a variety of oxy concentators, that might be right sized for this application, and should be available used to try. Just a thought.

There have been many research papers done on the effects of higher levels of oxygen saturation promoting higher growth levels.

http://www.eurohydro.com/pdf/articles/gb_dissolved_oxygen.pdf
http://goo.gl/RFRvr
http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=697_1

Although it appears that anything above 30 mg/l will stunt growth. Most air pumps can only provide 7-10 mg/l concentrations (depending on water temperature) , where as the oxygen injections will supersaturate the plants.
http://www.*********.com/forums/f29/purchased-dissolved-oxygen-do-meter-17582/#post301670
I am just trying to make sure that the facts out there there. I saw an old 2006 IC forum thread that said that there was no benefit to injecting o2 and supersaturating, however, there is research out there to provide that supersaturation does improve yields.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

The problem with long air runs is you get pressure drop and less flow due to friction with the tubing walls. The shorter you can keep your airline, the more air it's going to deliver.

Scroggerman,
The problem I see with running my res at 72F is the potential for root rot. I dont want to spend the money on aquasheild and would prefer not to use H2O2 unless I have problems.
I do use H2O2 to clean my res.

 

[FreezerBoy]

Both will work, however just tossing in the airline without an airstone will create big bubbles that just float up and out of the water, without actually dissolving into the water. This doesn't help as much as oxygen actually being in the water. That's what they're discussing here.

Aeration comes from surface turbulence which is why waterfalls (no bubbles at all) are the most effective way to add DO. Big bubbles will cause more surface turbulence than small ones. The airstone is for stealth. Small bubbles make less noise.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

. That's what they're discussing here.

yep i realize that, but since there seems tobe a bunch of pretty knowledable guys on the thread...hence my question...

 

[hippydan]

Aeration comes from surface turbulence which is why waterfalls (no bubbles at all) are the most effective way to add DO. Big bubbles will cause more surface turbulence than small ones. The airstone is for stealth. Small bubbles make less noise.

Sorry for passing wrong info around. I was under the impression smaller bubbles = more surface area = more dissolved oxygen. I knew surface disturbance was where the majority of DO took place. Thanks for correcting me, after all, we're all (well, most of us anyway ) are here to share/learn.

 

[budshoteyes]

A micro pore airstone is what I would do!

The bubbles do add oxygen,as the bubble floats up it exchanges oxygen for carbon dioxide. Breaking surface tension is not the only time that oxygen is absorbed into the water. The micro pore stones add up to 6 times more bubble surface than an ordinary stone.

I'm in the process of building a recirculating system and may not use a waterfall.