A question for breeding experts.

[VerdantGreen]

if you think about, most flowering plants have both male and female parts on the same plant, often on the same flower - so the genes of a plant can express both male and female parts. cannabis is very unusual in that it often has separate male and female - but they still have the ability with their genes to express the opposite sex if stressed.

so looking at it in the context of the plant kingdom - it seems pretty clear that the idea that, in cannabis, males and females might contribute particular traits - is kind of absurd really.... but i should say again that i am no expert...

VG

 

[Baba Ku]

I mean literally, someone asked for my opinion on feminized seeds, I gave my opinion and then Baba ku comes in and starts belittling everyone who didn't share his opinion of feminized seeds.

Funny you're very first post in the thread in question you called everyone in the discussion that didn't like feminized seed ignorant dumbasses and called their opinions bullshit. You don't see that as being disrespectful, on purpose or otherwise? I would suggest you try following your own suggestions.

I'm gonna lay this out for you real plain and simple so you can understand it. You have a fucking problem, old man.
First of all you bring in shit from another thread, which is childish bullshit that some dipshit would pull. But to make it worse, you are only telling your side of things, and what you are telling is simply out and out bullshit. You are simply telling it the way you see it...thing is you have a hard time seeing things clearly. That is apparent from this thread.
I suggest if you make assertions of me doing something, that you can back it up. You have nothing at all that you can point to that backs up your malicious claims. If so, why not quote the offense for us all to see? You can't because what you are saying is simply your feelings of how things went down, and not really how it actually happened.

Best thing for you to do is realize that you are way too smart by about half.

You act like some kid when you get owned....grow the fuck up.
And you have been owned here, as well as in your so called help thread where also made yourself looks very stupid and dense.
Ah yeah, you have two or three degenerate assholes that rub your nuts and back up your silly shit,,but they too are lacking.

That is all.

 

[HempKat]

if you think about, most flowering plants have both male and female parts on the same plant, often on the same flower - so the genes of a plant can express both male and female parts. cannabis is very unusual in that it often has separate male and female - but they still have the ability with their genes to express the opposite sex if stressed.

so looking at it in the context of the plant kingdom - it seems pretty clear that the idea that, in cannabis, males and females might contribute particular traits - is kind of absurd really.... but i should say again that i am no expert...

VG

So then say I wanted to cross Blueberry with C-99 are you saying it doesn't matter which one is male and which one is female? That BB x C-99 would give you the same plant as C-99 x BB? That's what I'm trying to get at. When a breeder decides to cross two strains what influences his/her choice as to which strain is the female and which is the male, or does it even matter?

My original question is based on the notion that say a person finds two strains he likes for different reasons and he thinks it would be nice if the qualities he likes in each strain were combined in one plant. When he first starts out which one does he pick to be the male and which to be the female and why? I'm aware further work would need to be done down the road to isolate the offspring that show the desired traits and then stabilize things but to start, what are the influencing factors on choice of which plant is which sex?

 

[HempKat]

I'm gonna lay this out for you real plain and simple so you can understand it. You have a fucking problem, old man.
First of all you bring in shit from another thread, which is childish bullshit that some dipshit would pull. But to make it worse, you are only telling your side of things, and what you are telling is simply out and out bullshit. You are simply telling it the way you see it...thing is you have a hard time seeing things clearly. That is apparent from this thread.
I suggest if you make assertions of me doing something, that you can back it up. You have nothing at all that you can point to that backs up your malicious claims. If so, why not quote the offense for us all to see? You can't because what you are saying is simply your feelings of how things went down, and not really how it actually happened.

Best thing for you to do is realize that you are way too smart by about half.

You act like some kid when you get owned....grow the fuck up.
And you have been owned here, as well as in your so called help thread where also made yourself looks very stupid and dense.
Ah yeah, you have two or three degenerate assholes that rub your nuts and back up your silly shit,,but they too are lacking.

That is all.

In your mind I might have been own you senile idiot I got plenty of proof like your own post.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3871176&postcount=3550

I would like to enter in my two cents here if it's OK.
Many of the arguments I see laid out here against the use of feminized seeds seem to be hinged on the preferences and habits of the person arguing against them, as well as their pre-conceived notions. Not much is actually being discussed about what fem seeds really are.

Arguments have been made that perhaps a person is just lazy and doesn't want to wait until preflowers show. Well, what about the person who grows a whole box or tent full of plants 12/12 from seed? Would fem seeds not be a good thing for them to use?

And what about the field grower? Fem seeds allows a grower to place his plants out in the field, and then come back in the fall to all female plants. He didn't have to make a second (most likely two or three more trips) to get males culled out of his patch.
Oh sure, many may argue he should be using a clone tree or some other method. But that is going back to YOUR preference.

There are lots of good reasons to use fem seeds. And unless someone could show that they were inferior to regular bred seeds then the above arguments are similar to arguing what the best colored containers are.

And many will pop right up and state they can show them inferior. But I would challenge them to prove it. Seems many think that just their thoughts on the matter is proof enough. Heck, some people have had huge rocks thrown at them in this thread for simply stating their opinion and a few facts. Rocks thrown by those who really have no real clues as to what they are talking about. More akin to a kids group, than a group of adults offering sage advise. Instead of relying on opinion central for all your info, try actually studying the issue for a change. Those who have actually studied the horticulture and genetics of breeding tend to understand these things, and those who haven't make it painfully obvious by their words in these threads.

I won't go deep into it here, but I can tell you for certainty that fem seeds have a great worth in the breeding world, besides the worth they present to the growers.
Fem seeds is a great tool for the professional breeders. Breeders who actually understand the science behind feminized seeds and know it's worth. The breeders also know why you folks fight and argue about the issue too. They know exactly why. But to try and convince some of you is like hitting a brick wall. Even worse in many instances, as many a good person has been trampled by the mean words of the blatantly ignorant.
Just like blazeoneup seeing a great consistency in his plants from fem seeds. There is a good reason for that. And if you folks would actually put on your study caps, instead of continuing to pass on bad info and basic hearsay, then you too would know why he experienced the consistency in the plants that were grown from fem seeds.

Some of you smart old folks try it for yourself if the physical and holdable is all you can really handle. Grow out the regular stock of a reputable breeder and along side of that grow their feminized offering of the same strain. I can almost guarantee you that you will see more consistency in the fem plants, and for good reason too. It is just that you folks don't seem to have info concerning the why's and why not's. It seems everything is based on your opinions and speculation.

To simply state that evolution is the reason we shouldn't use fem seeds is a ridiculous statement to make. It shows me that this person really is just typing and not putting forth much effort to actually type something of worth. Thing is, they are correct in that evolution is key, but they seem to not have any knowledge past that. People that actually know about the genetics of cannabis breeding can show you exactly why and how evolution comes into play. You people throwing these baseless charges out can't even explain what you really mean, let alone the real truth of the issue.
And not knowing what you are talking about hardly gives your the right to throw bad words and baseless charges at others who actually have taken the time to study the subject.
I have seen lots of good info coming out of this thread, and if Hempkat can't answer most likely another older member can.
But when it comes to this issue, it seems to have taken the shape of the other threads that either get shut down, or they fade away into the dust because folks are tired of wasting their good thoughts on the blatantly ignorant. It is especially disheartening to see the dumbass charge get thrown out by dumbasses.Of any place on this board I would like to see wise up, it would be this one. I have respect for us old guys and the experience we can offer up to young and new growers. But when the knowledge turns into the typical ignorant bullshit, it is a big disappointing bummer.I do however have every faith that if the truth is ever to be put out there, it would come from an old cats thread. Please help my optimism to be fruitful. Don't let me down and continue on an ignorant path that any kids could take. FWIW I am a grower that is past 50 years in age, and have been smoking pot since 1972 and growing it nearly as long.

Now why don't you fucking climb off your high horse where you think you sit in judgement of people here and go around labeling people as degenerates and try to project your homosexual fantasies onto them. You ain't shit and you have far less class then the people you label as degenerates.

Oh and as for what I bring into my thread, I'll bring in whatever I fucking please as long as it doesn't violate TOU. If you don't like it I suggest you stay out of my threads. Go make some of your own threads where you can hang out and pretend you've owned people.

 

[SexInTheCity]

Well this thread was great, I guess even the legends have to argue once in awhile...haha ICMAG is the best I'm sooo high.

 

[Baba Ku]

Now why don't you fucking climb off your high horse where you think you sit in judgement of people here and go around labeling people as degenerates and try to project your homosexual fantasies onto them. You ain't shit and you have far less class then the people you label as degenerates.

Oh and as for what I bring into my thread, I'll bring in whatever I fucking please as long as it doesn't violate TOU. If you don't like it I suggest you stay out of my threads. Go make some of your own threads where you can hang out and pretend you've owned people.

Yeah, you are simply brimming over with class aint you old man?
LOL...what a fuckin maroon.
I hope people DO read the thread you have your greasy panties in a wad over. Things will be more clear as to what your problem is. They will also be able to see all the class you hang out with.
lol...

btw..I didn't say don't bring things to the thread...I was simply pointing out how dipshit kids are typically the ones who do such things. They get mad in a thread, and they hold grudges from then until eternity. They will try their very best to downgrade any and everyone who challenges them on anything. I am sure they hope everyone else gets just as mad as they are.
Thing is, they show themselves for what they really are....full of class. Just like you...full of class. One classy mofo, thats for shore.

Oh and just in case there is anyone who is actually interested in the topic at hand, and not trying to engage in some sort of dipshit war...
When we pick from a couple of plants for parents, we need to be more concerned about if the traits they pass on are heterozygous or homozygous. If you are picking F1's, then the plants chosen will be heterozygous.
And Hempkat, I suggest you look up those two terms and digest them. If you actually come to an understanding of what the two terms mean and how they relate to the topic, you will probably start to see just where your thought process on this issue has been off.
Surely you don't think things are just as simple as what two plants to pick to get what you want? How long have you been in this game? Do you not do any reading at all? Hell, everything you have asked has been answered already in spades here. Sheesh.

*edit...
You know, if you had better comprehension skills, you would see just where your blunder is in the thread that has you so tore up.
You would also not have been so blatantly disrespectful to people that are trying to help you in this thread. And you do indeed need help. Why you want to be so fucking belligerent is beyond me.


And yeah..this is your thread...and you are also the one who brought a rash of hateful shit to it. It wasn't me, pal. I was actually trying to help you understand things. It's obvious that was my blunder.

 

[softyellowlight]

Did you guys ever stop trying to claim you can't smoke-test males?

 

[Tom Hill]

I don't see anybody claiming that we can't smoke test males SoftYellowLight. Only that it's worth about two cents on the dollar compared to smoke testing their offspring. -T

 

[HempKat]

Yeah, you are simply brimming over with class aint you old man?
LOL...what a fuckin maroon.
I hope people DO read the thread you have your greasy panties in a wad over. Things will be more clear as to what your problem is. They will also be able to see all the class you hang out with.
lol...

btw..I didn't say don't bring things to the thread...I was simply pointing out how dipshit kids are typically the ones who do such things. They get mad in a thread, and they hold grudges from then until eternity. They will try their very best to downgrade any and everyone who challenges them on anything. I am sure they hope everyone else gets just as mad as they are.
Thing is, they show themselves for what they really are....full of class. Just like you...full of class. One classy mofo, thats for shore.

Oh and just in case there is anyone who is actually interested in the topic at hand, and not trying to engage in some sort of dipshit war...
When we pick from a couple of plants for parents, we need to be more concerned about if the traits they pass on are heterozygous or homozygous. If you are picking F1's, then the plants chosen will be heterozygous.
And Hempkat, I suggest you look up those two terms and digest them. If you actually come to an understanding of what the two terms mean and how they relate to the topic, you will probably start to see just where your thought process on this issue has been off.
Surely you don't think things are just as simple as what two plants to pick to get what you want? How long have you been in this game? Do you not do any reading at all? Hell, everything you have asked has been answered already in spades here. Sheesh.

*edit...
You know, if you had better comprehension skills, you would see just where your blunder is in the thread that has you so tore up.
You would also not have been so blatantly disrespectful to people that are trying to help you in this thread. And you do indeed need help. Why you want to be so fucking belligerent is beyond me.


And yeah..this is your thread...and you are also the one who brought a rash of hateful shit to it. It wasn't me, pal. I was actually trying to help you understand things. It's obvious that was my blunder.

Funny how it's the assholes who never admit to or apologize for their rude behavior that go around claiming people hold grudges. I'm sure you and other pricks like you think that life is all a game and you can do whatever you want because people will forget and if they don't they just hold grudges. It never occurs to simpletons like yourself that people would be more inclined to forgive and forget if you actually apologized and tried to stop being rude.

Another thing you self absorbed ego maniacs have in common is when you spread your bile oops I mean opinion, you act like people are trying stifle your knowledge. I had zero problem with your opinion on femenized seed, you could have come in there and said everything you said about femenized seed and I would have been supportive. You didn't do that though, for you it's wasn't enough to just give your opinion without attacking any differing opinion. No you just had to belittle and insult other people who weren't even speaking to you, simply because they have a different opinion.

I also notice punk ass bitches like you like to pat themselves on the back alot by saying how they're trying to help people. Well if you were trying to be helpful why do you keep trying to change the question? I'm not asking how you pick traits from one strain in a one strain garden. I'm not even asking how you pick traits from one strain in a multi strain garden. I'm asking when you cross two strains how do you make the choice of which strain gets to be the female and which is the male? Does that choice influence the offspring? What has been said so far would imply that when crossing two strains it doesn't really matter which strain is mother and which is the father. I'm not sure I buy that because there are plenty of examples in nature where one parent's traits are more prominent and dominent in their offspring then the others.

No obviously I don't think you just cross two plants and get what you want. If you would actually try reading my questions you would see that, since I said I'm aware that more work needs to be done once you get past the stage of making the intial cross. Of course for you to acknowledge that also makes you look like a complete twat for everything you've been saying so it's far better for you to pretend to be this poor innocent person whose only crime is he tried to help.

You're obviously too stupid to see that the question doesn't really relate to heterozygous or homozygous nor does the response "the more plants you grow the better the selection". Those things come into play in breeding but not really until after the point I'm asking about. Apparently mental midgets like yourself need it spelled out though. So I'll do that and even try to use those words you like to throw around. Hell I'll even frame it in a setting involving large numbers. Let's say you have two warehouse sized growrooms each with 10,000 homozygous plants but the plants in one warehouse compared to the other are heterozygous. You like certain traits about the plants in one warehouse and other traits about the plants in the other warehouse. You decide you would like to see a strain with all these good traits combined and so you're going to cross the two strains. What do you look for to determine which strain gets to be mommy and which strain gets to be daddy?

 

[HempKat]

Did you guys ever stop trying to claim you can't smoke-test males?

I don't think anyone made that claim I think it was just expressed that few were interested in doing something like that.

If you really want to talk about smoking male leaves though here is a tread dedicated to that topic.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=202002

 

[Baba Ku]

Let's assume for a second that there really are traits that are passed on more favorably by a male, or by the female. Other than sexuality, hardly true IMO...but let's play.

What you fail to understand is that even if the above were true, it wouldn't fucking matter until you have plants that can pass on traits in true breeding fashion. And that will not happen from the first crossing. And only at F2 will the population segregate into selectable phenotypical expressions. What selections are available at that time depends highly on the Ne numbers at the previous crossing. The more the better.
It really is simple. Even for punk ass bitch twats such as myself.
You seem to have made it a painful excursion into hogshit.

 

[Tom Hill]

I'll have one more stab at it too. Anybody who gives a simple answer to this question doesn't know what they are talking about.

There is no evidence that suggests any of the traits we are breeding for are sex-linked in cannabis. It used to bother me somewhat that I had observed vastly different ratios of intersex males:females in the same line but this could be explained away via various hormones affecting/modifying intersexed males differently from intersexed females.

So if we accept the above to be true -and I really believe we have to or start breeding by way of bizarro unfounded theories- we can cease all this BS that has come before on this topic. This is not a simple question, and the answer has never been simple either. So let's get past that before we can even begin.

What we are really talking about is which to use to increase the odds of success.

Immediately and unavoidably we need to start talking about things such as heterozygosity, homozygosity, phenotypic evaluation, genotypic evaluation, etc, etc, etc.

It is extremely difficult to place a phenotypic value on a male drug cannabis plant (as apposed to females), we are not breeding hemp. So we need to observe its progeny, to place a genotypic value on it, this is what matters. What might we do to increase the odds of success?

Here is just one single example:

Let's say I have an F1 cross in mind, a Mexico/Afghanistan and that quality of smoke is highest on the list of goals. They both are relatively true breeding (homozygous) for many traits. However, they differ in the percentages of high quality smoke within their respective populations. Let's say that the Mexico has historically/generationally held a much higher percentage of individuals per growout that were exceptional smoke. Ok, then we'd likely be correct in assuming that quality of smoke was more fixed (homozygous) in the line from Mexico. So to increase the odds of success, we're going to be testcrossing males from the Mexico population to phenotypically selected females from the Afghanistan population. Because we know we don't have to look as far through the Mexico population to find what we're looking for in comparison to the Afghanistan population.

Can't have the conversation without these types of considerations, once we get past this not being a simple question with no simple answers. -Tom

 

[yortbogey]

for one................theMAN.............just told U..........period......

can't we all just behave............

 

[David762]

I think that I have this figured out properly ... WRONG! (Far too long since HS biology ... )

A big thanks to TomHill for this link: http://www.changbioscience.com/genetics/punnett.html

AA = Homozygous Dominant
aa = Homozygous Recessive
Aa = aA = Heterozygous

AA x aa ==> 1 AA + 2 Aa + 1 aa
AA x Aa ==> 1 AA + 3 Aa
aa x Aa ==> 1 aa + 3 aA

Here's the real quandary: Does the characteristic that you are seeking in your breeding program express itself when that trait is dominant, or when it is recessive? That is for a single gene -- is there one or more additional co-dependent genes (B,b,C,c,D,d) involved in the expression of that desired characteristic? And what part do changes in environment play in aiding the plant's expression of that characteristic?

It would appear that any effort to cross and stabilize your plant for any one desirable characteristic without thousands (many thousands?) of samples to work with is, at best a crap shoot. And without the addition of luck and happy circumstance, it would take many generations of plants to achieve. Many|most|all seed houses deserve our respect and gratitude.

 

[Baba Ku]

David, part of the problem is that unless we have some history of the parent plants, we don't know if they carry the traits we see and desire in them as dominant or recessive. Another reason we need to evaluate the progeny once they have segregated. The numbers will help us to see what takes dominance. Without some numbers or some luck, we may not even see what we want to see and be able to select it as a potential future breeder.

 

[David762]

Agreed.

Agreed.

David, part of the problem is that unless we have some history of the parent plants, we don't know if they carry the traits we see and desire in them as dominant or recessive. Another reason we need to evaluate the progeny once they have segregated. The numbers will help us to see what takes dominance. Without some numbers or some luck, we may not even see what we want to see and be able to select it as a potential future breeder.

Agreed.
Thank goodness that our munificent USA Federal government has made biological and medical testing of cannabis so easy that the entire cannabis genome structure is studied in freshman biology.

Oh, wait ... (hey Feds ... )

 

[softyellowlight]

I don't see anybody claiming that we can't smoke test males SoftYellowLight. Only that it's worth about two cents on the dollar compared to smoke testing their offspring. -T

Ahh, point well-taken and I thank you very much for your clarification. I will make sure that I give parental phenotype in any breeding that I do its appropriate treatment -- only a hint as to what traits may be passed on with no assurance of the relative dominance of those traits when genetically recombined with another parent.

That leads me to ask what traits in a phenotype would ever cause you to declare a parent unfit for breeding, as even a "poor" parent can provide the recessive genes necessary for another "poor" parent to shine, right?

 

[inquest]

Tom, what do you think of SamS/Chimera/whoever elses idea of reversing males for a more applicable smoke test? It seems this would allow a more accurate pressure to be applied to the male side of things. (potency/type of high not so much floral structure) Ofcourse you'd still wanna do progeny testing too.

I also find myself in a similar situation as Hempykat: Low square footage. I was contemplating a SOG type run. (just not the perpetual harvest part) I realize certain traits wont show themselves fully (stature, etc.) but this should bump up my numbers to something meaningful for trait selection (50-100) right?

 

[inquest]

Oooops... just reread the first page. Nevermind my first question.

 

[HempKat]

Let's assume for a second that there really are traits that are passed on more favorably by a male, or by the female. Other than sexuality, hardly true IMO...but let's play.

What you fail to understand is that even if the above were true, it wouldn't fucking matter until you have plants that can pass on traits in true breeding fashion. And that will not happen from the first crossing. And only at F2 will the population segregate into selectable phenotypical expressions. What selections are available at that time depends highly on the Ne numbers at the previous crossing. The more the better.
It really is simple. Even for punk ass bitch twats such as myself.
You seem to have made it a painful excursion into hogshit.

And you seem to have avoided the question still. I'm not asking about future generations. Yes I know that you probably won't have what you want straight out of the first batch of seeds, that's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is when you have two seperate strains that you are wanting to cross to combine traits each parent possesses individually how do you decide to pick which one is the female and which the male, or does it even matter since you'll be isolating traits in future generations?