LIFE in prison for arson!?!

[Misuseofyou]

"SERIAL ARSON IS ALL GOOD AS LONG AS THE VICTIMS ARE A SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION MY UNDERDEVELOPED
FRONTAL LOBE CAN BE PROGRAMED WITH PROPAGANDA TO MARGINALIZE"

Pretty sure it's been proven that the more educated you are, the less likely you are to be religious.

@Hempkat Men used the church for their own ends? Haha The church IS men, men ARE the church. You really think god has anything to do with it? Men wrote the bible. Hell, you've been taught, and believe, shit that isn't even in the bible such as the virgin birth. What a crock of shit. If you want to continue to hold these bronze age beliefs dear to your heart then be prepared to lose the respect of those more intelligent than you.

Lets say you have an imaginary friend, who is all powerful and watches you all the time. Then I come along, a total stranger in a dress and funny hat. I tell you that your friend have given me the authority to dictate how you live your life, and if you disobey you'll be tormented for eternity by demons. Do you believe me? Oh yeah, you have to give me money too. How could I forget?

 

[Weird]

Pretty sure it's been proven that the more educated you are, the less likely you are to be religious.

@Hempkat Men used the church for their own ends? Haha The church IS men, men ARE the church. You really think god has anything to do with it? Men wrote the bible. Hell, you've been taught, and believe, shit that isn't even in the bible such as the virgin birth. What a crock of shit. If you want to continue to hold these bronze age beliefs dear to your heart then be prepared to lose the respect of those more intelligent than you.

Lets say you have an imaginary friend, who is all powerful and watches you all the time. Then I come along, a total stranger in a dress and funny hat. I tell you that your friend have given me the authority to dictate how you live your life, and if you disobey you'll be tormented for eternity by demons. Do you believe me? Oh yeah, you have to give me money too. How could I forget?

so your bias is predicated on intellectual capacity ?

so i guess kids who believe in Santa clause and the mentally handicap are bereft the same value in your "intellect is relative to your value" in life caste system?

how many dogmas from how many peoples have you studied to know what religion true meaning and effect on man is?

it is an evolving attempt to develop a relative social conscience in a world were you have two choices

embrace the coming of the age where mankind works in general harmony or against each other

what does the purpose of the building have to do with the malicious nature of the crime?

none but every argument that its too sever a punishment goes back to the church god control conspiracy

currently in america most people believe religion has no bearing on this countries politics and laws

the minority you are justifying the persecution of is no different than any other, and hate them as you may, they aren't breaking or making laws as an assembly but living a lives they have chosen to live

the country was founded so people could worship religions of their choice without persecution

if not believing in God has completed you as a person how come you are bothered by those who would believe?

funny how easy the persecuted (growers) can so easily persecute others while bitching about illegality and prejudice

if the religious are so intellectually incapacitated and you felt it true to your own being why wouldn't you feel bad for the deluded?

or after being persecuted as a pot head why wouldn't you simply relish freedom for all?

its far easier to hate than it is to try to understand an opposing mind and and diagnose the failure in understanding and when you start to justify radical behavior because of the target or subject its time to take a step back and reflect on the logic of your thought process

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

TEXAS CHURCH CULTURE = FASCISM

TEXAS CHURCH CULTURE = FASCISM

In Texas most churches have been turned into a tax free business and these ministers are THIEVES! Some of them have private jets. WTF!

Also they are very judgmental. they infect, and corrupt the community with fascist ideas. those ideas are carried into the government, and police force.

You cant tell me it not true because I have witnessed it my WHOLE life.

as long as nobody died, then he should just get thrown in a mental heath facility. there is so many churches in texas it makes me fucking sick. not gonna miss them.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

yeah i guess i can but to sit here on a site where the only common denominator of criminality is growing pot only to hear people try to nominalize a serious crime like serial arson i speak what on my mind no hold barred.

Some people here grow legally. You're welcome to speak what's on your mind, just like the rest of us. I guess no holes barred means you'll misinterpret others comments.

its a site about pot not about lowering the bar in regards to social dynamics

Says the man who "speak what on my mind no hold barred."

i did and i also made a handful of comments you avoided like this gem

DOES BEING A GROWER MAKE YOU OK WITH SERIAL ROBBERY AND ARSON ?

Does making stuff up make you a child molester?

because it doesn't for me and like i said if it weren't fro your bias, if this ere 10 grow houses or elementary school i don't think you'd have the same compassionate outcry

We're having a debate, weird. You can substitute opinion for bias if you want. Or you can demonize those you disagree with.

The peeps you're arguing with don't fret over your building parameters. It's a matter of whether [no] motive to injure or kill has anything to do with sentencing.

Example

Your church gets burned to the ground... - or -

You get injured or killed in the process.

If the first scenario renders life sentencing for a non-violent crime, what do we give to the criminal that injured or killed you? You can't legally pursue the death penalty without capitol motive.

One of the peeps here did his homework and reasonably concluded why these criminals got life in absence of injury or death. Church burnings in Texas seem to be a big enough problem to warrant more severe sentencing.

Apparently these criminals stacked enough non-violent crimes to render life in Texas. The more we learn about this case, the more we consider that Texans themselves aren't necessarily equating church burnings to violent crime.

this thread did nothing and has nothing to do with cannabis

it has to do with apathy and contempt for some segment of society you find unpleasing

It shows that others don't always agree with you. It also shows you'll press your black and way of thinking on others enough to suggest we condone crime. And by the examples you've cited, violent crime.

Funny how your examples of other violent crimes involve actual victims, not Texas churches.

just remember you reap what you so and all things karmic including the energy your thoughts provoke

LOL, not even a nice try. We're talking about disparity in sentencing, not advocating violence.

spend a fraction of the tie discussing shit that is pertinent to the site like the tragedy of locked up growers

Then start a thread. We're all friends here, we like to discuss interesting topics. We already know we have areas of disagreement and anticipate these disagreements when debating. It's how we learn what and how others think.

Then there's the passionate opinion that seems to ignore points presented and sometimes offer points that don't exist in the discussion.

it is no coincidence that people ho have sub par capacities at interacting with people around them can so easily drop out, grow pot and cultivate an apathy for the mainstream

Speaking of interaction problems, you're making assumptions, suggesting non-starters and basically failing to recognize that difference of opinion is positive. Nobody's trying to sway your opinion as much as pointing out your methods.

It would have been easy to debate the fact that enough non-violent crimes can eventually add up to life. Equating non-victim arson as violent ignores written law.

Even Texas statute doesn't literally equate non-victim arson to violent crime.

and it no surprise after reading shit like this why the mainstream see the typical marination user as dangerous

listen to the shit that spills past your lips

I'm fine with your violent vs non-violent crime comparisons. Those that advocate further violence aren't getting any rebuttals.

You're lumping anybody that disagrees with you into the posts that are largely ignored by both sides. If the Tucson massacre taught us anything, it taught us that violent rhetoric doesn't help. Doesn't matter where it's coming from.

Doesn't mean violent rhetoric will stop, it means we don't pick it up when others lay it down.

 

[ddrew]

In Texas most churches have been turned into a tax free business and these ministers are THIEVES! Some of them have private jets. WTF!

Also they are very judgmental. they infect, and corrupt the community with fascist ideas. those ideas are carried into the government, and police force.

You cant tell me it not true because I have witnessed it my WHOLE life.

as long as nobody died, then he should just get thrown in a mental heath facility. there is so many churches in texas it makes me fucking sick. not gonna miss them.

I spent 5 years in houston, not only are the churches everywhere, they are ridiculously texas size big too, like stadiums, massive things that take up whole blocks.
And they pack'em in, people love getting their church on in texas.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

the incontrollable potential for injury is maleviolent in nature and has an uncontrollable potential for violence (harm against another)

Your prosecutor won't win cases with that argument. You'd basically have to incorporate the above statement into statute.

so you think that some one who does this 10 times to say a pre school (a non residence) that they would get less time? almost all churches have preschool and other kids activities and gatherings

HELLO.... no victims. You can philosophize at will but it doesn't change the facts.... especially in this case. One can argue repeated crimes rendered life but your violent aspect doesn't exist here.

show me stats, please show me were they slap serial arsonist on the wrist everywhere else but in good ol texas

A comment like that makes me curious of your age.

other than the example of armed robbery which carries a potential for violence bu dont not ensure it being cause for life in prison lets add as long as i'm not the one seriously trying to defend serial arson its ok not to be taken seriously by you, but for your edification

LOL, you're still lumping dissent of your opinion with criminal advocacy. Try adding some shades of gray to your black and white world.

Sorry, weird. We're not going to substitute "potential" and personal philosophy for written law.

Criminals don't go to jail on the pretext they [could] promote violence. In the eyes of the law, criminals either promote violence or they don't and they're sentenced according to statute.

setting fire to the town was common part of the process of pillaging

victimless, how about the people who dedicated their lives and monies to build it, who raised their kids there, who sent them to school there

its one thing to steal cause your hungry

its another to steal for drug habit

its another to steal cause your lazy and greedy

but to destroy the place you rob over and over again

How about the people that sentence according to law? Apparently, these folks eschew your philosophy as well. Does this make them apathetic wrist slappers too?

the only way to justify it is to have an EXTREME hate for religion (a simple prejudice) so you can make light of the crime because of a projected hate for the victims OR you think robbery and arson are not serious crimes and are a basic apathetic fuck BUT most your posts dont reflect that so i guess you like so many other think prejudice is proper in some instances

Try leaving the hate comments alone, weird. Instead, debate those who disagree with your opinion that vandalism and burglary are violet crimes.

or please give me some examples of how to rehabilitate serial arsonists

I'd rather debate the OP. You ought to try it yourself.

i mean you have a understanding of the pysch profile and rehabilitative needs of serial arsonists over say the segment of African american doing life for crack cocaine in NY or the grower in Oklahoma doing serious time

This is like debating a swirly, trying to avoid the logs and rescue anything worth debating.

relativity and context are important factors here

Sorry, you seem to miss relevant context in this thread. Even written law doesn't back up your assumptions. There may be others that feel as you do. Until your feeling is relevant in the eyes of the law, you could at least stop the comparisons of dissent (with your opinion) as criminal sympathy.

PEOPLE ARE DOING LIFE FOR POT IN TEXAS

START A THREAD ON THE SUBJECT YOU WISH TO DISCUSS.

but these dudes, they just deserve a break

In the eyes of Texas law they deserve no break. In the eyes of your philosophy, one day you'll need a break. You'll end up breaking somebody's opinion and suffer the consequences. Or, we'll continue to base sentencing on statute and not philosophy.

maybe you guys should simply create a defense fund and try to free em if you think they are being treated so unjustly

Or, we could take up debate lessons funding. You might benefit from the knowledge of pertinent points as opposed to the lethargy of grasping imaginary straws.

You've already given up the argument when you insert phony context on others.

 

[catcherintheye]

yeah i guess i can but to sit here on a site where the only common denominator of criminality is growing pot only to hear people try to nominalize a serious crime like serial arson i speak what on my mind no hold barred

its a site about pot not about lowering the bar in regards to social dynamics



i did and i also made a handful of comments you avoided like this gem

DOES BEING A GROWER MAKE YOU OK WITH SERIAL ROBBERY AND ARSON ?

because it doesn't for me and like i said if it weren't fro your bias, if this ere 10 grow houses or elementary school i don't think you'd have the same compassionate outcry




this thread did nothing and has nothing to do with cannabis

it has to do with apathy and contempt for some segment of society you find unpleasing

just remember you reap what you so and all things karmic including the energy your thoughts provoke

spend a fraction of the tie discussing shit that is pertinent to the site like the tragedy of locked up growers


it is no coincidence that people ho have sub par capacities at interacting with people around them can so easily drop out, grow pot and cultivate an apathy for the mainstream

and it no surprise after reading shit like this why the mainstream see the typical marination user as dangerous

listen to the shit that spills past your lips

and now i ask you kindly to GTFO. Youre a cassette my friend, a broken record full of assumptions, sadly you just dont get it...

To all those actually adding worth to the thread thank you, My questions are answered and Im satisfied, not much more for me to add. Ill be lurkin here. Peace guys, thanks disco for providing an intelligent side to the argument.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Word.

The fact the guy was a serial offender should be a clue to why the sentence was so harsh

agreed.

- he'd obviously just keep doing it

Speculation... sorry, overruled. We don't sentence according to speculation. I believe it's closer to... beyond reasonable doubt by a jury of peers.

and it's also supposed to be a deterrant to other murderously irresponsible arseholes. People can quite easily die in fires don't you know?

Sorry, no murderous assholes here. Read the article linked from the op.

People can die in many ways. We don't sentence others for killing unless they kill. It's really simple when you think about it.

This has nothing to do with property or wether anyone was actually hurt.
This thread is lame

It's got everything to do with Texas statute. No victims. The only "lame" in this thread is peeps comments that promote their own gut reactions over written law. I did it myself until a member pointed out that Texans don't necessarily equate arson with criminal violence against persons.

 

[statusquo]

I don't get why people are calling them murderers. I am no arsen but I feel like a place wouldn't just burst into flames resulting in deaths. People would notice a building was on fire and evacuate...Yes there is still a potential for people to die and there is certainly a risk to firefighters and innocent bystanders/passing peoples but that doesn't mean we can loosely toss around the label 'murderer'. We are in America and morals aside, we have law. Most of the time, the law says you can't be convicted for something that didn't/hasn't happened yet. That being said, nobody was hurt or injured not to mention we have no details about the case. What if they scouted each building before burning? We have no clue what happened/their actual intentions. Also, the fact that they are serial offenders is definitely important. Does that merit life in prison? Consider the question morally, legally and pragmatically. I think the answer is no on all counts given the limited information we currently have. As Disco said, speculation; over-ruled. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind in regards to a life sentence. Not to mention it supports to corporate oligarchy (the machine) and more specifically Texas' corrupt privatized prisons.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I voted too harsh by mistake...Arons is a VERY serious crime. Send a serial arsonist away and throw away the key as far as I am concerned.

Or, we can sentence according to law.

First off, its only a matter of time until someone gets injured or killed by one of the fires caused by these sickos, and secondly the amount of property damage caused by these people is extensive, resulting in lost personal possessions, and increased insurance rates for others.

Then sentence according to extensive property damage and loss of possessions (same thing.)

When it comes to formal charges and whether convictions are won or lost, we can leave this part out...

"its only a matter of time until someone gets injured or killed by one of the fires caused by these sickos"

I think I saw some people saying it wasnt that bad because "they were churches" and "they checked to make sure no one was in there", pretty shocking to hear anyone make any kind of excuse for these kids.

Facts are excuses to dissenting opinion. I make no excuses toward criminals nor inanimate objects or churches (same thing.)

I simply advocate sentencing according to statute. Even if Texans feel that victimless church burnings are violent crimes, they have statutes to sentence accordingly. I don't agree but it's their law to interpret.

IMO, advocating violent crime sentencing for non-violent crimes is shocking. I considered the serial aspects of the case, consecutive versus concurrent sentencing and gained perspective. I invite you to reference law, not gut reaction.

The firefighters who show up to put out the fire could get hurt or killed.

Earth to mybazz: If you ever get caught for committing a crime, law enforcement can charge you for what you've done, not the future potential you've yet to commit.

I dont want to give out specifics, but someone recently burned down something near me on purpose.

Speculation or proof? You don't have to answer.

It was an item the community got together to build, was there for all to enjoy, and the property (lets just say it was a park) it was placed on was open to all 24 hours a day. Well, someone set fire to it on purpose and guess what? The community is paying the price. That item is no longer there, and the property is now gated, locked, and off limits thanks to these retards.

No mention of injury or death. I hope y'all catch the perp and I hope you understand the reason I responded to your post.

The vandal shouldn't be charged with "this retard could have killed somebody." They should be charged according to law that holds jurisdiction over your item( and crimes committed.) Whether future potential exists is not a part of the legal process.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

listen dont get me wrong

they deserve compassion

lots of it

and we were a country of unlimited boundaries, yes get them help and hope

but relative to the current landscape of crime justice and corruption in america there are other people who deserve compassion first

Why don't we allow criminals to serve their time? If there's room for compassion or even rehabilitation then so be it.

That's a positive contribution to the tread, weird. Well done.

but listen

EVERYONE WHO GROWS

this is the absolute posion of illegality


this is what happens you grow and smoke long enough off the grid and isolated, growing with no support or community.

i did it for close to 2 decades now and got to the same place and it was to my chagrin

once you develop that sacred relationship with your garden its easy to see all of our societies construct faulty, its easy to become the ultimate cynic, its easy to withdraw into yourself and lock yourself away

its very easy to propagate the them vs us in a whole different manner

WHY ?!??!?!?!

cause you get back so much more directly when you deal with your garden

the affairs of man can be very convoluted, so we quickly adapt to the one that gives us the most benefit

May I finish your comment? - "we quickly adapt to the one that gives us the most benefit"... so long as our benefit isn't detrimental to others.

I wouldn't want to draw narrow context that possibly infers anti-social or even sociopathic behavior.

but there are layer past this, where our conscience and reason have the chance to develop furthur and experience a greater phenomenon, real healing

for me I have found faith in the cause and effect that is expressed by the collective conscience of humanity

that is regardless of what i put out there in terms humanistic it will return in a humanistic manner later on

i believe human nature is subject to laws like the physical constants of the universe are subject to physical Constants

when you treat the rest of the world like a garden it will yield fruit like a garden, that is what growing and giving back to the world has taught me

it took me into some very dark places, into the depths of my own isolation where the darkest parts came from within, but i found my way out healed and rejuvenated

it didn't happen till i addressed my relationship to the world around me, outside my garden and my own guarded being and it took some effort cause i had found a very comfortable place in my garden

the real moral of this story is this kid should have been burning the "church" and not churches

Whatever the philosophic reasoning, sentencing should reflect law... written law. There's a reason we write laws. Too many philosophies to choose that inflict unfair judgment against others. Like comparing non-violence to violence and suggesting there's no difference.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

so your bias is predicated on intellectual capacity ?

There you go again, Nancy. You too have made comments synonymous with ignorance (because of disagreement with your opinion.)

Check the dictionary for opinion versus bias. You're applying a term that your opinion appears to reflect.

so i guess kids who believe in Santa clause and the mentally handicap are bereft the same value in your "intellect is relative to your value" in life caste system?

Let me remind you.... "so your bias is predicated on intellectual capacity ?" Lets leave those types of comments and Santa Claus out because it's human nature to sling mud. Lets all admit we have the propensity to get personal and leave it at the door.

how many dogmas from how many peoples have you studied to know what religion true meaning and effect on man is?

I've "studied" enough to know that religious people disagree with each other enough that non-religiosos can avoid the mud (if they choose.)

it is an evolving attempt to develop a relative social conscience in a world were you have two choices

Sure there's two choices - to break or not break the law. Unlike devolution, evolution denotes progress. IMO, it ain't progressive to devolve into sentencing of violence when no violence occurs.

Why do you think we have degrees of crime and the arguably appropriate punishments rendered? Because crime (like MANY aspects of life) isn't black and white.

embrace the coming of the age where mankind works in general harmony or against each other

Embrace what you wish, I address what appears to be disparity in criminal sentencing. Disparity that on the surface appears devolutionary. After the facts start to surface, not so much.

what does the purpose of the building have to do with the malicious nature of the crime?

You refuse to address the op's point and instead substitute your own. The subject is crime, serial arson to be specific. The nature of the crime (according to Texas statute) doesn't have to qualify as violent (to persons) in order to render life sentencing.

It's not the nature of the target that determines sentencing unless hate laws dictate otherwise. (Excepting churches in Texas.) Are there currently any hate crimes associated with church arson? Many peeps aren't fans of the "hate crime" laws simply because they want to hate. Then they want to disassociate themselves from crimes that appear to be influenced by hate rhetoric.

What are the most-likely "church" burnings to receive hate-crime status in the future? LGBT churches, minority churches and segments of the population that already have hate crimes established.

Fortunately for you, rich, white peeps and white in general ain't minority status. Haven't you ever heard of the "Moral Majority"? I know it's a myth but so is the so-called minority of religious peoples. Surveys poll religious versus non-religious sympathies with the citizenry. While a majority doesn't necessarily advocate organized religion, as many as 87% of our country has polled as religious in their own right.

none but every argument that its too sever a punishment goes back to the church god control conspiracy

Only if you have difficulty separating church and state.

currently in america most people believe religion has no bearing on this countries politics and laws

If you advocate violent sentencing where no violence occurs, you might be excluded from most people.

I love it when peeps bring up "most people" as if they assume they're in a majority. Last time I checked, the thread poll is 50/50. While not scientific, it's a reflection of the community that chose to respond.

Congrats weird, you're basically saying you're a minority while suggesting the majority feels the same as you. And all within three paragraphs of each other.

the minority you are justifying the persecution of is no different than any other, and hate them as you may, they aren't breaking or making laws as an assembly but living a lives they have chosen to live

Then try addressing pertinent posts. It's a lot harder than addressing haters. Haven't you seen the recent rhetoric bouncing between political parties? Some of it is disposed of as more hate. But the ramifications are real and the problem has to be addressed.

The solution? Direct comments and or rebuttal toward non-haters.

Another wonderful assumption exposed in this thread. You're not a hater, weird.

the country was founded so people could worship religions of their choice without persecution

Agreed. But your context is short. Our country was founded (in part) so people could worship their own religion, not an imposed, state religion.

There's no Constitutional protections that declare victimless church burnings are to be treated as potential or future murderous scenarios. But the serial nature of arson alone can beget life in prison.

if not believing in God has completed you as a person how come you are bothered by those who would believe?

Well, don't take this personal. Organized religion OFTEN judges others as unfit for society because all us heathens are going to HELL. I don't need religion to subscribe to The Golden Rule.

I don't have to subscribe to a story to know how to treat others.

One particular religion, one that happens to be a minority in the face of Islam, Hindu and Buddist says they'll all go to HELL if they don't accept this minority religion. Sorry, that's a crock of crap.

If I want to belong, I have to repent publicly in church. If that's not bad enough, church bean counters will accept or deny my membership based on income and potential (sometimes required) offerings. Nothing to do with repentance.

funny how easy the persecuted (growers) can so easily persecute others while bitching about illegality and prejudice

That comment is made up. All three points so deftly imagined and posted as relevant.

What does the term persecution invoke? Persecution by the church.

Live and let live, a message the church can't ascribe to and still survive. The church will always have demons, the very people who reject organized religion and those who choose other, organized forms.

If you want to stop persecution, start in the church where it's most evident. Maybe non-religious people will treat you and yours like the clubs or associations that don't divide depending on personal belief.

if the religious are so intellectually incapacitated and you felt it true to your own being why wouldn't you feel bad for the deluded?

Faith can't conclude others are deluded. That's your religious paradox. You can't seek proof because that in itself challenges your faith. You're dependent on belief, not fact.

So your comment of delusion could be relegated to yourself.

or after being persecuted as a pot head why wouldn't you simply relish freedom for all?

How about the crimes we don't justify by ignoring law and risking incarceration? Sorry, pot has nothing to do with violence or non-violence in church burnings.

its far easier to hate than it is to try to understand an opposing mind and and diagnose the failure in understanding and when you start to justify radical behavior because of the target or subject its time to take a step back and reflect on the logic of your thought process

Then give logic a try, yourself.

Debating disparity in sentencing laws has nothing to do with hate. Specifically, we're discussing a particular case and the merits of the sentencing rendered. You just pick the stuff that's easy to black n white your issue of choice, not the parameters of the original post.

I invite you to post your own philosophy, in your own philosophical thread. Otherwise, try to maintain the topic.


If you insist on the wide-angle philosophy, try this one on.

How do regard abortion clinic destruction in regard to victimless vs victimized crime? Your opinion may be why you've possibly avoided the comparison.

 

[Greensub]

show me stats, please show me were they slap serial arsonist on the wrist everywhere else but in good ol texas

California's sentencing guidelines for arson...

Arson Sentencing:

• Causing great bodily injury during arson – 5 to 9 years
• Burning an inhabited building or property – 3 to 8 years
• Burning any structure or land – 2 to 6 years
• Any arson of property – 16 months to 3 years

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...state-felony-laws/california-felony-class.htm

NOTE* not sure how three strikes law applies to multiple counts Vs multiple convictions.

Craig served more than six years in prison for setting multiple house fires in Ypsilanti from 1999 to 2002. He was paroled in 2008, prison records show. He remains in custody pending sentencing.

http://annarbor.com/news/convicted-serial-arsonist-admits-to-setting-fire-to-augusta-township-home/

Obviously 6 yrs wasn't enough for this guy.

U.S. District Judge Richard D. Bennett sentenced Wilson to the maximum 20 years in prison, exceeding by three years the recommendation of federal prosecutors, who wrote in a sentencing memorandum that "the defendant's repeated and unending pattern of committing arsons … placed peoples' lives in danger and property at great risk."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...t-domestic-case-police-and-fire-investigators

A waiver of indictment was executed on August 30, 2006 and Benjamin Harris
pled guilty to an information charging a violation of 18 U.S.C. § 844(i) pursuant to
a plea agreement. The information alleged that between February 24, 1999 and
September of 2001, Mr. Harris had used fire to maliciously damage approximately
23 properties in Schenectady and Montgomery counties. A. 8-9.

The PSR calculated a total offense
level of 21 and a criminal history score of III. PSR, p. 15, ¶ 49; p. 18, ¶ 55. The
corresponding sentence range was 46 to 57 months. However, the offense of
conviction carried a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years. As a result, the 5 years
became the recommended sentence. U.S.S.G. § 5G1.1(b).

Counsel for Mr. Harris submitted a number of objections to the factual contents
of the report but maintained that the guidelines sentence was appropriate and
requested that the sentence be imposed to be served concurrent and coterminous with
the Florida sentence. A. 53-54. The Government agreed with the recommendations
of the PSR and also requested that the sentence be concurrent and coterminous as
agreed to in the plea agreement. A. 43.
On April 11, 2007, Mr. Harris was sentenced to a term of incarceration of 132
months on Count 1 to be served concurrent with a 97 month sentence imposed on
October 17, 2005 in the District Court for the Southern District of Florida. A. 100.
A three year term of supervised release was imposed. The District Court also ordered
restitution in the amount of $2750.00. A. 95.

The District Court further stated in its statement of reasons that the sentence
was based on the total number of fires admittedly started by the defendant in Florida
and the Northern District of New York (53) and that the number of fires admitted to
by the defendant in the Northern District of New York (23) was substantial and
alarming and the admission of Mr. Harris to 13 additional fires in South Carolina .
Statement of Reasons dated April 18, 2007, p.3, sec. VI, subsec. D.

So this guy set 89 fires in 3 states and got 132 months, and that was found to be excessive.

The District Court also failed to use the appropriate method for assessing the
increase in sentence according to the guidelines. The resulting increase was
excessive.
Unreliable and inherently prejudicial information in the PSR was controverted
by counsel and accepted by the Court without a ruling as to whether it was considered
or disregarded by the Court. As a result the sentencing failed to comply with Rule 32
of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. Without specific factual findings about
the controverted matters and their use in the sentence formulations, the sentence cannot stand.

http://www.nynd-fpd.org/pleadings/brief%20on%20reasonable%20sentence%203.pdf

There you go...

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

I spent 5 years in houston, not only are the churches everywhere, they are ridiculously texas size big too, like stadiums, massive things that take up whole blocks.
And they pack'em in, people love getting their church on in texas.

It is absurd.... and they have pictures of "white Jesus" with an assault rifle and an American flag with the founding fathers in the background looking on him with approval.

They also have book burnings on a regular basis. I'm not making this shit up. these people are just as bat shit as the arson and there is millions of them.

We should just yank all the great growers out of Houston build a 200 yard thick wall of Big macs around it and just let them finish eating them selves to death!

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Greensub demonstrates interstate (even intrastate) disparity with charges and convictions. This is why church burners and various other criminals don't automatically fall into the "life in prison" category.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Arsonist's are Serial killers-- Except they do not care who their victim's are..as long as there are Victims--
Lowest of the low-- In Prison, they are right there with Child Molesters--
Fuck 'em--

Farck, I meant to quote this post, not agree with it. There are many faults with this type of thinking. Please allow me to demonstrate with the terms used in the comment.

Arsonist's are Serial killers

Arsonists are criminals. The term arsonist doesn't touch on murder, let alone serial murder.

Serial killers are murderer(s) plural. Serial killers follow their motives of who and how they murder, not starting fires when nobody's around.

Except they do not care who their victim's are..as long as there are Victims

With exception of victemless arson, or course.

Lowest of the low-- In Prison, they are right there with Child Molesters--
Fuck 'em--

Yep, they're right there... behind bars with child molesters. That's where the similarity starts and ends.

This is my whole argument. Sentence according to statute (which, BTW is subject to change through the legal process.) If we're sentenced according to informal, gut reactions of comparisons to serial murderers and child molesters (especially when these comparisons don't apply) we're fucked.

Is the knee-jerk sentence in question not severe enough? No problem, get the next knee jerk reaction, it might have the severity we're looking for.

IMO, of all the "most helpful" comments in this thread, the comment I quote here is least helpful. No regard to the technicalities of if and when murder applies, let alone serial murder.

We're not arguing the right to burn churches or anything else for that matter, we're arguing whether church burning constitutes violent crime. We've got enough differences of opinion without rewriting the definitions of criminal terms.

 

[mocs0]

Seems to me like they set churches on fire to cover up the fact that they were robbing them, but I don't know all the details, I'm not going to lose any sleep over them, and I won't be watching the made for TV movie.

the country was founded so people could worship religions of their choice without persecution

And how's that working out? Cannabis and other entheogens have been used for religious purposes for thousands of years. Where are they now? Schedule 1. "Your weird religious and medical sacraments are outdated, invalid, and closed for discussion." Very convenient that people can't explore for themselves and find their own truths. We have to take the word of old religions that took the same entheogens we can't.

Here's who gets a life sentence for arson

"Joseph Wambaugh. In his latest book, “Fire Lover: A True Story,” Wambaugh profiles John Orr, a walking worst-case scenario for any fire department.

Orr headed a large California arson squad, and had a reputation for uncanny instincts about how an arson fire had started. It turned out that in many cases, it wasn’t instinct at all. It was inside knowledge. Orr had set the fires.

4 people dead and he didn't get the death penalty? Luckily he didn't do it in TX. Let me guess, pre-sentencing went something like this: "May I remind the court that my client is a well-respected member of the community ..." And the judge bought it. Those 20 - 22 year olds in TX couldn't rely on years of public service for mercy. And people who can afford a lawyer don't usually get the same sentence as those who must rely on a public defender, or so I've heard.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Proving capitol murder isn't as easy as identifying the culprit.

 

[HempKat]

You mean the horrors of the past, present, and future. Who says men don't use the church in 2011 to justify their own sick personal views?

Maybe they do? However I was responding to a post in which references were made to the just past with the crusades and inquisition. Sure people use religion to justify all sorts of things. History shows they did it in the past, we can still see they do it in the present and therefore it's reasonable to conclude they will do it in the future. I wasn't trying to get that deep into the point I was making though as that would actually be taking the thread off topic.

Feelings and belief don't give you a leg to stand on. How many people believe that your brain fries like an egg when you smoke cannabis?

Nobody that I know of actually believe this.

How many people believe we are a gov't of the people, by the people? Eight in 10 Americans support legalizing marijuana for medical use and nearly half favor decriminalizing the drug more generally. That won't give you a leg to stand on in court, and the politicians aren't rushing to do the will of the people. "Cannabis has no medicinal properties. That's our story and we're sticking to it."

When I said "a leg to stand on" I was just talking in terms of this thread and the point that the poster was making to the people who might read this thread. It seems to me you're going out of your way to be argumentative by framing the discussion in terms well beyond and outside the point anyone here is trying to make. The topic isn't the legal status of marijuana, it's not what people believe about marijuana, it's not about whether or not the US government is truely representative of the people, it's not about whether or not religion gets perverted by people for their personal goals. What the topic is about is whether or not a life sentence for Arson is too harsh or not.

 

[HempKat]

They should have given them a pat on the back and a hearty thanks for destroying some of the blight on the human race that is religion. If you're an asshole who wants power over people you become a cop. If you're a diddler who wants power over people you become a priest.

Wow, it would appear you judge the whole of religion based on one specific church and their history. You do realize religion isn't just another word for Catholics right?