Ah okay, I thought smart grid was more of a definitive thing since it was actually being tossed around as part of Obama's campaign.
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Gas is gonna go through the roof.....
- Thread starter BrainSellz
- Start date
Ah okay, I thought smart grid was more of a definitive thing since it was actually being tossed around as part of Obama's campaign.
No sorry it was something I saw on tv several months back. I can tell you it wasn't your standard solar cell but a whole new approach with the end product being more of a film that can be applied to most any surface. If I remember correctly the company behind it was a UK based company but that's about all I can tell you. Of course the problem being that 80% efficiency means absolutely nothing if they can't figure out how to tap into it from this film.
I do have some links I found by typing "80% efficiency solar power" into google though
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/nsolcel.htm
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/05/29/new-solar-panels-80-efficient/
http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/solar-panel-efficiency/
(this link seems to discuss the same technology mentioned in what I saw on tv)
http://electronrun.wordpress.com/20...r-panel-uses-tiny-antennas-has-80-efficiency/
http://dymaxionworld.blogspot.com/2008/01/holy-snap-80-efficient-solar-power.html
http://www.best-solar-energy.com/so...icient-of-absorbing-radiation-works-at-night/
http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=2385
http://gizmodo.com/351945/foldable-solar-panels-could-be-up-to-80-efficient
there was a gloom and doom show on the history channel last night, 'Prophets of Doom', fairly well named, nothing really new
but a good summary of the situation of oil/natural gas, and just how bleak the future could be without said resources
if we can not replace the energy of that resource, you may well arrive at a world with a population that existed pre oil and natural gas, i.e. 4 billion less of us
renewables sound wonderful, who could argue against perpetual clean energy
the reality is that wind/solar has very thin concentrations, there isn't all the much energy for a given surface area
the economics of renewables are grim, the total available quantities are large, but that is a mirage
if oil pops up to $200 a barrel, don't expect miracles from more windmills or solar panels
but a good summary of the situation of oil/natural gas, and just how bleak the future could be without said resources
if we can not replace the energy of that resource, you may well arrive at a world with a population that existed pre oil and natural gas, i.e. 4 billion less of us
renewables sound wonderful, who could argue against perpetual clean energy
the reality is that wind/solar has very thin concentrations, there isn't all the much energy for a given surface area
the economics of renewables are grim, the total available quantities are large, but that is a mirage
if oil pops up to $200 a barrel, don't expect miracles from more windmills or solar panels
Clearly given the state of our energy technology and the things we're aware of, there is no one single solution that will free us from fossil fuels overnight. Or for that matter free us at all. Definately we need to start thinking differently about energy and how we use it and a good start would be to move from fossil fuels for powering cars to something like electric via lithium ion batteries or hydrogen fuel cells.
Giving up fossil fuels completely seems totally unrealistic given the vast number of by-products we get from them, that we depend on, as has been pointed out previously.
There is NO solution to free us from OIL...there are possibilities for alternative ENERGY but no alternative to the myriad products made from oil. Oil IS irreplaceable.
It's takes a WHOLE lot more oil to make those batteries and fuel cells than you'll ever get out of them. NG is our ONLY option for vehicles. Forget electric en mass. I already told you what an ALL electric vehicle nation would do to the electrical grid...it would swamp it. To keep individual vehicles, we need portable power. Something you can fill and take along with you. Batteries are NOT going to replace oil or NG.
Using current technology...we all have to give up our cars to replace gas/NG with something "green"...battery power is NOT green! But neither is gas/NG. Until the "Mr Fusion" is invented...all personal transportation will be dirty.
I see oil rising until personal transportation becomes unaffordable. Cars will become cheap (was GM going under an omen to the automotive industry?) as less and less can afford the fuel. There will be NG conversion kits like when Freon was banned. Taxis will flourish...there may be private local bus services charging $5 or so a ride. The days of cheap transportation may be at an end. It depends how much cities can get away with in raising fares. Remember when China/Asia was full of people riding mopeds? They're coming back...here too.
IF it's true what they say about peak oil...modern civilization WILL end...unless we find a totally new technology...a Mr Fusion. The question is how easily and how slowly will/can we ease back and make it last? There are people who say the earth creates oil/NG within. We just have to go deeper and deeper to get it. I'll ask again...HOW did that oil get 6 miles deep below the gulf? WHAT put that much organic material down that deep in a geologically inactive region? 6 miles is a LOT of sediment...too much in my book.
But you know...with global bankruptcy looming...it might not get very high in price before it all falls apart and demand dwindles.
Without an expanding economy fueled by cheap and plentiful energy...how great CAN the recovery be? Some say we are entering the end...end of oil, and of booming economies. It's not JUST the retiring boomers dragging things down.
Chronic Don
Member
just a thought, a stoned thought mind you, I have on renewable energy,
IF we were to install enough windturbines and solar cells to "meet" the electrical demands ie electric cars/trucks, heating of a world without much oil/gas what consequence would it have?
now when solar rays light hits the earth it becomes or mostly becomes heat energy. if you have thousands upon thousands of square miles of solar panels to power say each city or area, and it took the solar rays as electricity instead of as heat, would that "cool" the area below what is considered normal and enough to change the ecology of that area?
and with the winds distributing the heat of the sun to regulate extremes in temperature and that wind being slowed down by thousands upon thousands of turbines in an area would it change the temperature patterns of an area?
And if this was repeated by every county/country/continent around the world would/could it cause change enough to damage the world?
just a thought I had a while ago when smoking some preemo bud and eating awesome brownies.
IF we were to install enough windturbines and solar cells to "meet" the electrical demands ie electric cars/trucks, heating of a world without much oil/gas what consequence would it have?
now when solar rays light hits the earth it becomes or mostly becomes heat energy. if you have thousands upon thousands of square miles of solar panels to power say each city or area, and it took the solar rays as electricity instead of as heat, would that "cool" the area below what is considered normal and enough to change the ecology of that area?
and with the winds distributing the heat of the sun to regulate extremes in temperature and that wind being slowed down by thousands upon thousands of turbines in an area would it change the temperature patterns of an area?
And if this was repeated by every county/country/continent around the world would/could it cause change enough to damage the world?
just a thought I had a while ago when smoking some preemo bud and eating awesome brownies.
I don't get the whole electric car thing. An electric car is not "green" by any means. Consider how much electricity it takes to charge one car. Consider the amount of NG or coal that must be refined to get that electricity. Now extrapolate that to millions and millions of cars.
What if we replaced all oil consuming cars with electric cars (which are essentially coal and NG cars)? You are trading one fossil fuel for another. And there are serious questions to whether our power grid could even handle many electric cars all charging at once starting at 6pm when everyone gets home. The grid is maxed out as it is.
Granted doing so would greatly reduce our need for oil, but our need for NG and coal would explode. Ethanol is a joke and a scam IMO.
I would personally like to see a transition to NG cars. Something along the lines of T. Boone Pickins plan. We just need to find something that can tie us over until nanotechnology is viable.
I always though peak oil was a sham. Now I'm not so sure. I still think this is all speculative driven though. The money being printed is going to find the place with the highest returns and commodities are hot right now as confidence in sovereign solvency erodes.
What if we replaced all oil consuming cars with electric cars (which are essentially coal and NG cars)? You are trading one fossil fuel for another. And there are serious questions to whether our power grid could even handle many electric cars all charging at once starting at 6pm when everyone gets home. The grid is maxed out as it is.
Granted doing so would greatly reduce our need for oil, but our need for NG and coal would explode. Ethanol is a joke and a scam IMO.
I would personally like to see a transition to NG cars. Something along the lines of T. Boone Pickins plan. We just need to find something that can tie us over until nanotechnology is viable.
I always though peak oil was a sham. Now I'm not so sure. I still think this is all speculative driven though. The money being printed is going to find the place with the highest returns and commodities are hot right now as confidence in sovereign solvency erodes.
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Oh me, gloomer and doomer.
Well it seems alot of assumptions are being made of the impact of charging a car. As far as I know the drain would be less then that of running an AC or a heater so it could very well turn out that all these cars would not cause brown outs. Then there is also the assumption everyone will be charging at once. I believe the range they're looking for is in the ballpark of 150 miles per charge. If your commute to work is just a few miles you may not need to charge your car everyday. Then there is the fact that many people get off work later then 5pm or earlier then 5pm and a great many people don't go straight home but rather go out to dinner, bars, clubs, etc and then go home later. So this business of massive brownouts is pure unadulterated speculation that has no basis in fact yet because we aren't even at that point.
Also the point about it not being green to make electric cars is irrelevent and argumentative. When people talk of green cars they're typically not implying the cars are green from the point of production to the point we scrap them. They simply mean that the car is not giving off harmful pollution in the form of exhaust. If you want to start including how things are made then virtually nothing is green except for things produced by nature.
Also apparently IBJ ignored where I suggested giving up on oil entirely was a foolish notion due to how many things oil is used to make, and went on to argue the point as if I was suggesting we could move away from using oil completely. I'm not surprised as it seems clear that IBJ doesn't attempt to fully read and comprehend what people are saying unless he thinks they agree with him already, which has been IBJ's way for as long as I've seen him posting around the sites. Damn if it ain't annoying though.
Also the point about it not being green to make electric cars is irrelevent and argumentative. When people talk of green cars they're typically not implying the cars are green from the point of production to the point we scrap them. They simply mean that the car is not giving off harmful pollution in the form of exhaust. If you want to start including how things are made then virtually nothing is green except for things produced by nature.
Also apparently IBJ ignored where I suggested giving up on oil entirely was a foolish notion due to how many things oil is used to make, and went on to argue the point as if I was suggesting we could move away from using oil completely. I'm not surprised as it seems clear that IBJ doesn't attempt to fully read and comprehend what people are saying unless he thinks they agree with him already, which has been IBJ's way for as long as I've seen him posting around the sites. Damn if it ain't annoying though.
You couldn't...we drive too many vehicles, too far. We use 20 million barrels a day making just gasoline. Then there is diesel, probably another 20 million barrels. And the electric grid can't handle it. How do you plan to make and cover all these thousands and thousands of square miles? Using the LAST of the oil? That's a LOT of expensive shit to build. Actually...it wouldn't do a thing. You see, light strikes surfaces all the time. The only difference is, with a solar panel, when the electrons get hit by the photons, instead of the energy being wasted, it's channeled and used.
Wind turbines DO slow the wind...so conceivably, you "could" have "too many".
Great stoner questions though...
I said the exact same thing a few posts earlier...
The price of oil stays high to monetize the debt. The higher per barrel, the more money that is monetized. Dollars are being pumped from the ground EVERY day. This is the SAME thing that Bernake is doing...making money. He does it with a computer terminal...others by drilling a well...every barrel...cha ching...another $90 "created".
I guess you don't read my posts...pity...
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That's not quite how the climate system works... True, the sun's energy hits the earth, is reflected, trapped by the atmosphere and the earth is heated. But you wouldn't be able to put enough solar panels down to 'capture' all that energy and not allow the sun from heating the earth.
Simple answer to q 2 is no. The climate system is very complicated. It's not like damming up a river where the effects are immediate and obvious.
that's partly true, the grid is near max at peak usage
but that's just part of the day, the midnight to 6 AM slot is actually relatively 'open'
but if you're using coal and NG for electric power, you are right that it's fossil fuel car dressed up in electric clothing
changes are coming, which ones are the big question , what choices will we make?
but whatever change it is, people on the whole will not change until they have to, though that is already happening(just on a small scale)
This is from Ford's Global Director of Electronics. He builds the things so I'll defer to him.
Yes there are exceptions to every rule. The fact remains the majority of people work 8-5 and will be charging their car at night sometime all at once. They take several hours to charge.
Sorry I think that's a simplistic way of looking at things. I like to consider the entire life-cycle of a product before I call it "environmentally friendly." Nuclear reactors are great until you have to dispose of the waste.
Don't pout. I do. Maybe I forgot what you said because I'm stoned.
Once solar becomes cost effective, we could definitely have huge solar farms in Florida, Texas, SoCal, etc..
I don't know if we could produce enough power with that though..
How-about hydroxy gas generation via high frequency electrolysis ? Fact, Stan Meyers did it, drove his car across America on a gallon of water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ3juM6vHwg
Boom, just solved the energy crisis in 10 seconds :friends:
I don't know if we could produce enough power with that though..
How-about hydroxy gas generation via high frequency electrolysis ? Fact, Stan Meyers did it, drove his car across America on a gallon of water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ3juM6vHwg
Boom, just solved the energy crisis in 10 seconds :friends:
Randybobandy
Member
We are approaching critical mass. That is for sure. The only solution I see is a total shift in human conciseness. A global one. And I think it's already on the way. People should not have to drive 50-100 miles to work when there is PLENTY of land to sustain human life around them. But the system we live in is not conducive to a simple and efficient way of life. If you look at a graph of oil consumption and human growth the parallel is obvious. We are expanding and if we don't find a way to match this expansion or mitigate it, then I'm sure nature will mitigate us. I think this will be the next step in our "evolution". We think we are so smart! LOL! People in a thousand years will pitty how we live today.
i had seen this a while ago, a very interesting way of addressing one of the big problems
that is the traffic mess in our big metropolitan areas, these are horrendous examples of wasted energy
the solution? the pooh pooh train
you get the driver out of control, automated vehicles
there was a series of boxy cars, they maintained a couple of inch space between them
huge benefit in fuel consumption, you get an aerodynamic train of vehicles
but most people don't like small boxy vehicles, not to mention the loss of driving control
but if things get bad enough, who knows?
that is the traffic mess in our big metropolitan areas, these are horrendous examples of wasted energy
the solution? the pooh pooh train
you get the driver out of control, automated vehicles
there was a series of boxy cars, they maintained a couple of inch space between them
huge benefit in fuel consumption, you get an aerodynamic train of vehicles
but most people don't like small boxy vehicles, not to mention the loss of driving control
but if things get bad enough, who knows?
Well I can see where Ford might say that seeing as how they're still working to get electric cars into production. How about we take GM and see what they have to say since they do have them in production.
Why electricity?
Mostly produced domestically and is an inexpensive source of power
Cleaner to use than gasoline.
Utilities have the capacity to power millions of Volt vehicles without overtaxing the infrastructure.
Electricity is produced by many different sources including renewable wind, solar, geothermal and hydropower.
We're working with utility companies to make sure that everyone has inexpensive and reliable access to charging.
Here are a few more advantages:
Commute gas-free on electric for an average of $1.50 a day.
Can be set to charge during off-peak hours for greater savings.
Your Volt will be fully charged in about 10 hours, depending on climate, with standard 120-volt line, or as little as 4 hours using a dedicated 240-volt line.
I don't know about where you are at but I live in a small house that's all electric and it costs about $10 a day to run the whole house. So clearly these cars don't put as much of a strain on the system as Ford thinks. Maye they're just trying to scare people off until they get their own lithium-ion battery powered car to market?
Here is what Nissan has to say about the cost of charging which with their home charging station takes less then 7 hours
Q: Since the Nissan LEAF solely runs on electricity, would charging from home dramatically increase my electricity bill?
A: Based on a US average of $0.11/kWh, a full charge will cost about $2.75. It could be even less, if your area has time-of-use rates and you charge at off-peak hours.
As far as environmental impact, I thought with a title like "Gas is gonna go through the roof" that we were only discussing the impacts of fuels and not the overall production of things. If you want to play the game you're playing then the only people producing green products are Organic Farmers.
I fully expected us to hit 5 per gallon 2 summers ago.
Every day from now untill we hit $5 a gallon is bonus to me.
Now when the price of Ramen noodles go up, that's another story.
Every day from now untill we hit $5 a gallon is bonus to me.
Now when the price of Ramen noodles go up, that's another story.
We need electric tractors for green organic farmers! Oh wait... here's a link for some...
http://www.electrictractorstore.com/
A lot of good points all around on the electric vehicle, obviously we're not there quite yet, but there are a lot of people working on all the little pieces needed to go totally "green", that 80% efficient PV cell will be big news if they can get it to work (and they probably will I think, give em' 5 years), but then I'm an optimist... hopefully as gas does inevitably go higher electric vehicles will become a more viable option.
http://www.electrictractorstore.com/
A lot of good points all around on the electric vehicle, obviously we're not there quite yet, but there are a lot of people working on all the little pieces needed to go totally "green", that 80% efficient PV cell will be big news if they can get it to work (and they probably will I think, give em' 5 years), but then I'm an optimist... hopefully as gas does inevitably go higher electric vehicles will become a more viable option.
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Well done sir !
