Farmer Stealth
Member
Thats what I was thinkin/hoping but wasn't sure. SWEET! I got lucky!
Thanks man.
Thanks man.
A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning
- Thread starter Kodiak
- Start date
Howard Marks
Member
It a bit difficult to tell but by the looks of it you have two shoots growing close to the topped location and another two on the nodes right below it. These would be your new main shoots. If they all grow at the same pace, you have successfully FIM topped the plant and it has assigned four shoots, instead of two, to replace the main shoot.
If the main shoot on the stem keeps growing, you didn't remove enough tissue and the apical dominance might still be in play. Sometimes when you try to FIM top the plant, you don't remove enough tissue from the main shoot and it tries to keep up but ultimately fails. Then it is better to remove it altogether and allow the next two shoots in line to take its place.
Keep in mind that you can also train the plant to further gain from topping them. You can tie down the new main shoots, which in turn allows the lower shoots to grow more rapidly. Scrogging the plants might also help.
By changing the shape of the plant, you can help it produce more bud. It all depends on how the plants respond to the training, how many you are growing and how much space you have to work with.
If the main shoot on the stem keeps growing, you didn't remove enough tissue and the apical dominance might still be in play. Sometimes when you try to FIM top the plant, you don't remove enough tissue from the main shoot and it tries to keep up but ultimately fails. Then it is better to remove it altogether and allow the next two shoots in line to take its place.
Keep in mind that you can also train the plant to further gain from topping them. You can tie down the new main shoots, which in turn allows the lower shoots to grow more rapidly. Scrogging the plants might also help.
By changing the shape of the plant, you can help it produce more bud. It all depends on how the plants respond to the training, how many you are growing and how much space you have to work with.
Howard Marks
Member
Thanks for theanswer Kodiak!! I have 2 shots right below the cut on the nodes and i have 3 shots on the toped/fimed location. Is it posible to have 5 mains from this cut?
Those shots right below i thought they were secondary shots and the main shoots will be just the new growth close to toped location.
Old main shot on the stem have not kept growing since the cut. Its my first grow, my first cut and i didnt know what new growth will be main stems. Today have passed a week from the cut, new shots are growing a little bit slower but plant below the cut have developed very well, nice side grow, nice new side branches, its very low and bushy.
Ill take pics later with her.
About further training the plant, i dont want to tie down/lst new mains, ill just maybe do some supercrop on the side lower braches.
P.S. She is a White Rhino.
Later edit : I have atached a pic, its hard to take better pics of the main stem, plant is very bushy.
Those shots right below i thought they were secondary shots and the main shoots will be just the new growth close to toped location.
Old main shot on the stem have not kept growing since the cut. Its my first grow, my first cut and i didnt know what new growth will be main stems. Today have passed a week from the cut, new shots are growing a little bit slower but plant below the cut have developed very well, nice side grow, nice new side branches, its very low and bushy.
Ill take pics later with her.
About further training the plant, i dont want to tie down/lst new mains, ill just maybe do some supercrop on the side lower braches.
P.S. She is a White Rhino.
Later edit : I have atached a pic, its hard to take better pics of the main stem, plant is very bushy.
Attachments
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Shoots usually come in pairs but polyploid plants can develop sets of three leaves/nodes and other wierd stuff.
It does look like you have a third shoot growing next to the topped location. If it grows into a full sized cola then all is well. Check where it's coming from, it could also be some kind of mutation. I guess you just have to wait and see.
No need to worry about it because your plant looks very healthy.
It does look like you have a third shoot growing next to the topped location. If it grows into a full sized cola then all is well. Check where it's coming from, it could also be some kind of mutation. I guess you just have to wait and see.
No need to worry about it because your plant looks very healthy.
Howard Marks
Member
Yeah, now I see it. Nice. Basically, the tallest shoots will be your mains. The shoots growing from the node below the cut look quite strong and the ones below them look good as well, so it's difficult to say what will happen.
My guess is that the shoots below the cut might eventually become dominant.
That sure is a bushy plant. You don't have much to worry about from where I'm standing. Make sure that you have some healthy clones before you flower the plant.
My guess is that the shoots below the cut might eventually become dominant.
That sure is a bushy plant. You don't have much to worry about from where I'm standing. Make sure that you have some healthy clones before you flower the plant.
Howard Marks
Member
IncredibowlBoss
Member
Kodiak (and all) - sorry I haven't gotten that finished PDF done yet! (just took a new job, and they keep me busy - especially now that AZ passed prop 203! - I'm doing stuff like this.
Anyway, I'm definitely still working on it - don't give up faith
In the meantime, here are my results so far with LST & supercropping - she's twice as lush this week (pics soon!)
Week 0:
Late Week 1:
Early Week 2:
Mid Week 3:
Anyway, I'm definitely still working on it - don't give up faith
In the meantime, here are my results so far with LST & supercropping - she's twice as lush this week (pics soon!)
Week 0:
Late Week 1:
Early Week 2:
Mid Week 3:
Sourbear
Active member
I would like to attribute a thank you to Kodiak for helping me with my first grow.
These are the first plants i've done and I topped them all once, except one... but that's a story for later hahahah.
Here are the girls that where topped via your method and they successfully took off =p
thanks again
These are the first plants i've done and I topped them all once, except one... but that's a story for later hahahah.
Here are the girls that where topped via your method and they successfully took off =p
thanks again
No problem IncredibowlBoss, in your own time. Make sure that you allow that plant enough time in veg to recover from the training before you flower it and you will be greatly rewarded.
You did a good job there BigBear. Your plants look very healthy and quite well fed. Nice buds too. Now you just have to wait for them to get fat and ripe for the picking.
Keep up the good work guys.
You did a good job there BigBear. Your plants look very healthy and quite well fed. Nice buds too. Now you just have to wait for them to get fat and ripe for the picking.
Keep up the good work guys.
Sourbear
Active member
Hey Kodiak
I was wondering if you could add some input on my grow....
I am doing a 4x4 room with a 1k hps. 40+ plants in 1gallon pots.
I am wondering what do you think would be the best possible way to go to maximize yield.
Usually in SOG people go for single cola plants
I'm not sure what is the best option.... and the only real way to tell is to just try different shit.
By that I mean Out of the 40+ plants I have some will get longer veg times, I'm thinking about doing 2 of each of the following for results:
(All will be transplanted into a 1 gallon pot once they acquire 5 or more roots, majority of the clones will have no veg time what so ever just transplanted and into the flower room)
6 days of veg, no topping
6 days of veg, topped on day 6 of veg
12 days of veg, no topping
12 days of veg, topped on day 6 of veg
No veg Topped 7 days into flower
No veg topped 14 days into flower
I'm thinking with all the different combinations here I will be able to find what works the best for the biggest yield in SOG. I will be able to tell if a plant will be to bushy and reduce light on other plants around it and such....
I'm not sure what will work best.....but I guess the only real way to find out is to try.
I was wondering if you could add some input on my grow....
I am doing a 4x4 room with a 1k hps. 40+ plants in 1gallon pots.
I am wondering what do you think would be the best possible way to go to maximize yield.
Usually in SOG people go for single cola plants
I'm not sure what is the best option.... and the only real way to tell is to just try different shit.
By that I mean Out of the 40+ plants I have some will get longer veg times, I'm thinking about doing 2 of each of the following for results:
(All will be transplanted into a 1 gallon pot once they acquire 5 or more roots, majority of the clones will have no veg time what so ever just transplanted and into the flower room)
6 days of veg, no topping
6 days of veg, topped on day 6 of veg
12 days of veg, no topping
12 days of veg, topped on day 6 of veg
No veg Topped 7 days into flower
No veg topped 14 days into flower
I'm thinking with all the different combinations here I will be able to find what works the best for the biggest yield in SOG. I will be able to tell if a plant will be to bushy and reduce light on other plants around it and such....
I'm not sure what will work best.....but I guess the only real way to find out is to try.
It's difficult to say what would work best but I would probably leave all the plants untopped the first time round, just to see how well they fill up the space.
40+ plants in 4x4 is going to get a bit crowded but 1 gallon pots will help to keep the plants fairly small. The 1K hps should be more than enough, so no problem there.
To be honest, I would keep it simple because keeping track of everything that you mentioned seems like a lot of work and in the end it might not even give you a clear picture of what works best because the plants will adapt to the space that is available to them. Like so many other things in nature, they are opportunists. Some plants will grow stronger and bushier than others and that might skew your results. Bushy plants will also have to compete for space, which could mean that they will waste energy on growing more leaves if they don't receive enough light. That is something that you don't want in a SOG grow because it's already crowded as it is. You might even have to trim some of the excess leaves at some point.
I would test the untopped, one main cola SOG style first and try to get them as fat as possible. You can also arrange the rearrange the pots during flowering in order to make the most out of the space that you have.
You also have to consider the time it will take to complete one harvest. The untopped plants might finish faster than the ones that receive training, which might defeat the purpose of what you are trying to do. Fast perpetual harvests is the name of the game after all.
Think of it this way:
1000w divided by 40 plants = 25g (0.88 ounces)
That means that if you can get 25g from each plant, you will have reached the magical 1g/watt yield (1000g = 2.2 pounds). With the right kind of plants, you could get somewhere close to that but I suspect that you will need the big main cola for this to happen. Less energy spent on building stems and leaves means more energy spent on the main shoot, it's a structural thing. The best plants for SOG grows are those that like growing one large and fat main cola. Even better if the main cola is relatively large compared to the size of the plant.
Your horizontal space is limited but your vertical space is not, at least not in the same way. If you can get the plants to grow a fairly tall and fat main cola, you could get a lot of bud. For that I suggest that you allow them at least a week in veg before you flower them. The clones will need a little bit of time to adjust to their new medium when you have transplanted them (it's called the hardening off period). The 1K hps can penetrate pretty far, so it should help to keep the plants happy. You should also try to keep the internodes on the main stem as short as possible because empty air between the buds does you no good. I mean that you should keep the light as close to the plants as possible because that will decrease the stretch. This might become more difficult if you have plants that vary in height.
Perhaps this picture says more than my words:
The light penetrates further down on this model compared to one where the pyramids are inverted. The buds grow fatter as you move down from the top, which means that little space is wasted.
I'm not saying that the other methods won't work as well but at least you will have something clear and concrete to compare with next time. It's good to take detailed notes and pictures of every grow, that way you can build up a reference database that you can use to come up with new and better ways of growing.
SOG growing is not really my speciality but I'm letting you know what I would try. I'm usually happy with the results when I trust my gut feeling, so picture what the grow room would look like in different scenarios and then make up your mind.
40+ plants in 4x4 is going to get a bit crowded but 1 gallon pots will help to keep the plants fairly small. The 1K hps should be more than enough, so no problem there.
To be honest, I would keep it simple because keeping track of everything that you mentioned seems like a lot of work and in the end it might not even give you a clear picture of what works best because the plants will adapt to the space that is available to them. Like so many other things in nature, they are opportunists. Some plants will grow stronger and bushier than others and that might skew your results. Bushy plants will also have to compete for space, which could mean that they will waste energy on growing more leaves if they don't receive enough light. That is something that you don't want in a SOG grow because it's already crowded as it is. You might even have to trim some of the excess leaves at some point.
I would test the untopped, one main cola SOG style first and try to get them as fat as possible. You can also arrange the rearrange the pots during flowering in order to make the most out of the space that you have.
You also have to consider the time it will take to complete one harvest. The untopped plants might finish faster than the ones that receive training, which might defeat the purpose of what you are trying to do. Fast perpetual harvests is the name of the game after all.
Think of it this way:
1000w divided by 40 plants = 25g (0.88 ounces)
That means that if you can get 25g from each plant, you will have reached the magical 1g/watt yield (1000g = 2.2 pounds). With the right kind of plants, you could get somewhere close to that but I suspect that you will need the big main cola for this to happen. Less energy spent on building stems and leaves means more energy spent on the main shoot, it's a structural thing. The best plants for SOG grows are those that like growing one large and fat main cola. Even better if the main cola is relatively large compared to the size of the plant.
Your horizontal space is limited but your vertical space is not, at least not in the same way. If you can get the plants to grow a fairly tall and fat main cola, you could get a lot of bud. For that I suggest that you allow them at least a week in veg before you flower them. The clones will need a little bit of time to adjust to their new medium when you have transplanted them (it's called the hardening off period). The 1K hps can penetrate pretty far, so it should help to keep the plants happy. You should also try to keep the internodes on the main stem as short as possible because empty air between the buds does you no good. I mean that you should keep the light as close to the plants as possible because that will decrease the stretch. This might become more difficult if you have plants that vary in height.
Perhaps this picture says more than my words:
The light penetrates further down on this model compared to one where the pyramids are inverted. The buds grow fatter as you move down from the top, which means that little space is wasted.
I'm not saying that the other methods won't work as well but at least you will have something clear and concrete to compare with next time. It's good to take detailed notes and pictures of every grow, that way you can build up a reference database that you can use to come up with new and better ways of growing.
SOG growing is not really my speciality but I'm letting you know what I would try. I'm usually happy with the results when I trust my gut feeling, so picture what the grow room would look like in different scenarios and then make up your mind.
When the plant is left untopped, the main cola is favored over the lower shoots. It's called apical dominance. The main shoot sends down supressive hormones, which prevents the lower shoots from gaining height and the lower buds from growing very large. If you top the plant, you also cancel out the apical dominance, which will results in a bushier plant with more budding nodes. The plant basically changes shape from a pyramid to a cocktail glass as it starts sending the lower shoots upwards to where the main shoot used to be.
The problem is that you don't have much space to spare with so many plants, so leaving the plants untopped and removing the lower branches will ensure that the energy is concentrated in the main cola. Don't remove anything until you are sure that that is the best thing to do. Nothing will change over the course of a couple of days, so you will have some time to think about it.
I would also time the 12/12 switch quite carefully as you don't want your plants to remain too small. You can expect a 2x stretch once you flip the switch so use that as a guideline. Keep the plants in veg until they look good and ready. It might be a bit easier to time the whole thing if you decrease the hours gradually, say from 20/4 to 18/6 to 12/12. That will still give the plants enough time to grow tall enough for a decent harvest. The plants will always stretch more if the difference between the veg and flower schedule is big. This will result in fewer nodes and greater space between them. If you decrease daylight gradually, you can also reduce the stretch by keeping the light as close as possible at all times by making smaller adjustments. Also keep in mind that the 1K hps will probably run very hot, so you might have to keep it quite high above the canopy or you will burn the tops. You have to take that into consideration when you plan your grow but since you will be growing small plants with a single cola, I doubt that you will run into any major problems. Air-cooling the hps is always a good idea in order to keep the temps down. If you can keep your hand comfortably above the canopy, then the plants will be ok. Check your temps at all times.
I all depends on how much clearance you have. The more the better because then you can always raise the light higher if needed.
You can just watch and see how it goes as the plants progress. You can make up your mind as you go along. I'm sure that you will know what to do then. If you need to flip the switch earlier than you had planned, then you have the option to do so.
The problem is that you don't have much space to spare with so many plants, so leaving the plants untopped and removing the lower branches will ensure that the energy is concentrated in the main cola. Don't remove anything until you are sure that that is the best thing to do. Nothing will change over the course of a couple of days, so you will have some time to think about it.
I would also time the 12/12 switch quite carefully as you don't want your plants to remain too small. You can expect a 2x stretch once you flip the switch so use that as a guideline. Keep the plants in veg until they look good and ready. It might be a bit easier to time the whole thing if you decrease the hours gradually, say from 20/4 to 18/6 to 12/12. That will still give the plants enough time to grow tall enough for a decent harvest. The plants will always stretch more if the difference between the veg and flower schedule is big. This will result in fewer nodes and greater space between them. If you decrease daylight gradually, you can also reduce the stretch by keeping the light as close as possible at all times by making smaller adjustments. Also keep in mind that the 1K hps will probably run very hot, so you might have to keep it quite high above the canopy or you will burn the tops. You have to take that into consideration when you plan your grow but since you will be growing small plants with a single cola, I doubt that you will run into any major problems. Air-cooling the hps is always a good idea in order to keep the temps down. If you can keep your hand comfortably above the canopy, then the plants will be ok. Check your temps at all times.
I all depends on how much clearance you have. The more the better because then you can always raise the light higher if needed.
You can just watch and see how it goes as the plants progress. You can make up your mind as you go along. I'm sure that you will know what to do then. If you need to flip the switch earlier than you had planned, then you have the option to do so.
Sourbear
Active member
Makes 110% more sense to me now....
What I'm going to do is one week into flowering remove a few of the lower branches of some and see how different they are from plants that where left alone. If one week is too early then the second week, or if not removing branches at all works better then so be it!
Now what I have in question... is veg times.....
I currently have a 4x4 table that can be lowered/raised as much as i want and a light that can be lowered/raised from the creeling down about 3-4 feet.
Overall with the light at the top of the room and nothing lifting my 4x4 table essentially I have about 7 feet to grow wit..... Now that being said... I can veg the dirty girls 2 feet tall flower and expect 5 foot tall plants with 2 feet extra room to move the light.
BUT that would not work cause I am 99% sure that the plants would get rootbound in their 1 gallon pots.
So... what would be a good veg time for a sea of 40 plants in 1 gallon pots.... Veggin them under the 1k wouldn't hurt them I believe....
I had 7 clones that rooted in 10 days, went into 1 gallon pots and vegged under a 400HPS for 5 days then right under the 1000, they are doing fine and farther than 24 inches away due to my 3 current girls in there now so i don't think any damage will be done to them, they already have new growth under the 1000 so I know they are handling it fine.
Slowly transitioning into 12/12 isnt something i've been doing, it sounds like it works for the plants and will REALLY help in SOG since I want dense colas, i want better node spacing.
Idk... I am not sure.... after a certain amount of height is there a loss of progression to the bud? Would vegging for 3 weeks make the plants so tall that the lower parts of the cola where not really getting light?
I guess I will have to do some random veg times too...
start tossing in clones with different veg times
Yeah, you can try a couple of different things and see how it works out.
I have not used 1K lights myself but I've been told that their effective range is about 3½ feet. You won't be able to keep it very close to the plants though, so you need to take that into account. I'm just guessing here but you might not be able to get it much closer than 2½ feet from the plants without burning the tops, unless you use a cooltube or an air-cooled hood.
That leaves you with 4½ feet of clearance for the plants. You should not allow the plants grow very large because that might backfire on you when it gets too crowded in the grow room. You are not supposed to go for large plants here because that defeats the purpose of SOG growing.
You have so many plants in such a small space that 2 feet is probably the absolute max. My guess is that 1½ feet would be right on the money, so I would start flowering them when they are about 1 feet tall. It might get crowded no matter what but then you have to carefully prune the plants. You might also have to tie up some of the lower branches so that they stay closer to the plant if they start to venture out too far. Each plant has a personal space which is no larger than the square that is formed by the pot it is sitting in. You need to use this space to create relatively short plants with a single but large main cola. Anything that isn't bud is basically wasting space and that is the challenge of SOG growing.
I think that the 1 gallon pots might be just right for your grow room and that they might even limit the plants to a size that will work perfectly for your SOG. Picture a fully grown Lowrdyer plant and you'll know what you should go for. As a matter of fact, LR's would probably do well in SOG because they can be flowered with 24/0 and are genetically limited to the correct height.
You can veg the plants with the 1K hps but don't bring it in too close until you can clearly see that the plants have established themselves. Newly rooted clones are sensitive to strong light, so it's better to keep it higher up until the plants start growing full time.
I always decrease the daylight hours gradually because it helps to keep the plants compact. The key to success is frequent nodes. If you do it just right, you'll get nodes that are only 2 inches apart. By the time the plant starts flowering, the nodes on the main stem are many and close together that they form a single huge main cola.
That is the picture that I am trying to paint here. You just have to scale down that idea to accomodate for a larger number of plants.
I have not used 1K lights myself but I've been told that their effective range is about 3½ feet. You won't be able to keep it very close to the plants though, so you need to take that into account. I'm just guessing here but you might not be able to get it much closer than 2½ feet from the plants without burning the tops, unless you use a cooltube or an air-cooled hood.
That leaves you with 4½ feet of clearance for the plants. You should not allow the plants grow very large because that might backfire on you when it gets too crowded in the grow room. You are not supposed to go for large plants here because that defeats the purpose of SOG growing.
You have so many plants in such a small space that 2 feet is probably the absolute max. My guess is that 1½ feet would be right on the money, so I would start flowering them when they are about 1 feet tall. It might get crowded no matter what but then you have to carefully prune the plants. You might also have to tie up some of the lower branches so that they stay closer to the plant if they start to venture out too far. Each plant has a personal space which is no larger than the square that is formed by the pot it is sitting in. You need to use this space to create relatively short plants with a single but large main cola. Anything that isn't bud is basically wasting space and that is the challenge of SOG growing.
I think that the 1 gallon pots might be just right for your grow room and that they might even limit the plants to a size that will work perfectly for your SOG. Picture a fully grown Lowrdyer plant and you'll know what you should go for. As a matter of fact, LR's would probably do well in SOG because they can be flowered with 24/0 and are genetically limited to the correct height.
You can veg the plants with the 1K hps but don't bring it in too close until you can clearly see that the plants have established themselves. Newly rooted clones are sensitive to strong light, so it's better to keep it higher up until the plants start growing full time.
I always decrease the daylight hours gradually because it helps to keep the plants compact. The key to success is frequent nodes. If you do it just right, you'll get nodes that are only 2 inches apart. By the time the plant starts flowering, the nodes on the main stem are many and close together that they form a single huge main cola.
That is the picture that I am trying to paint here. You just have to scale down that idea to accomodate for a larger number of plants.
IncredibowlBoss
Member
Sour D - 6 weeks of intensive LST - OUT OF CONTROL!
Awesome bro
Can you smell the diesel already? Stinky weed usually reeks already in veg.
Your plant is looking much better now that she has recovered from the training. You could tie down the new shoots in turn so that they allow even more shoots to grow. Perhaps that is what you are doing, I cannot tell from the picture. There's some yellowing on the leaves but nothing serious. The plant might just need a boost of nutrients.
Some might not agree with me but I like to take my time training the plant, which also means that I usually keep them in veg for at least 4 weeks, until they look like they are going to produce a nice harvest. One of the hidden benefits of a long veg time is a thick stem, which also allows the plant to transport a lot of water and nutrients to the buds.
I find that training the plant is a bit like bonsai gardening. The activity itself is rewarding, so I'm in no hurry.
Can you smell the diesel already? Stinky weed usually reeks already in veg.
Your plant is looking much better now that she has recovered from the training. You could tie down the new shoots in turn so that they allow even more shoots to grow. Perhaps that is what you are doing, I cannot tell from the picture. There's some yellowing on the leaves but nothing serious. The plant might just need a boost of nutrients.
Some might not agree with me but I like to take my time training the plant, which also means that I usually keep them in veg for at least 4 weeks, until they look like they are going to produce a nice harvest. One of the hidden benefits of a long veg time is a thick stem, which also allows the plant to transport a lot of water and nutrients to the buds.
I find that training the plant is a bit like bonsai gardening. The activity itself is rewarding, so I'm in no hurry.
