Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[etinarcadiaego]

Well that is the opposite of my experience. My plants that get defoliated could finish faster than non-defoliated plants....most people report the same. I had an increased yield. What strain were you doing? If it is an Indica, maybe that is why...so far my Indica plant is the only plant to do worse.
Obviously you have tried it and it is not for you. That is the only way to know. Do what works best for you!

Your flowering time improved after removing ONLY fan leaves?

I've tried it with about a dozen strains, perhaps 15-20 plants total. Removing lower branches is a technique I do employ that does reduce flowering time, but removal of healthy, near-canopy fan leaves (which is a plants way of turning radiation into usable energy), is in my experience not an effective technique to improve yield. Science, or the biology plant life, doesn't really support the notion that removing a plants way of absorbing energy would increase a plants growth - bud growth or otherwise.

That said my results were the product of an 11 week long side by side grow in a controlled environment with no variable unaccounted for, I do know a few people here on the forums who have said they THINK they get better results from defoliation, but again to be fair you need to perform a controlled experiment, which isn't too hard to setup, it just takes some commitment, which I'm usually bad at . . .

To be fair, I only mean to say that defoliation, meaning the removal of otherwise healthy fan leaves, does not appear to be a viable way to increase yields, especially since those same fans can be bent or otherwise manipulated to allow light to reach lower bud sites. Removing lower branches to reduce the amount of energy the plant spends producing popcorn buds is a good practice, it's supported by science, and works well. Defoliation, insofar as my above description, seems counterproductive when the same result can be had without causing undue stress.

So many methods to improve yields, it's still hard to beat a good scrog but as you said different techniques for different people, how boring would this forum be if we all did it the same way . . . lol

Either way man, good luck to you and happy holidays - you said it best - a persons got to do whatever works best for them!

 

[Block2TheFuture]

Go for 36 plants closer together. Lots of gaps in the canopy leaves your yield well under 1gram a watt.

 

[Xare]

GPW is not an accurate measurement anyhow. And plant count is relevant! Let's say you have a 600 watt HPS in a 3x3 space and you fit 10 plants in that area. Now lets say you have a 4x4 tent right next to it with the same 600 watt HPS, but you can fit 14 same sized plants in that space. Which one will yield more? Same amount of Watts, but you can fit 4 more plants under the same light. The 600 is plenty light for both spaces, but you should yield more in the 4x4 space.

How big is your space?

My space is 4 x 4 and 4 and 1/2 feet tall. My height is restricted and that is why I grow SOG. Its an attic space that gets 85+ in the summer and has no airflow in the winter.

Your example adds an extra variable of Space to accommodate for the higher number of plants.

I used to grow with a 400 watt light in my area. I tried it with 5 rows of 5 and 6 rows of 6. Sometimes lolly-popping, sometimes not.

The yield was always around .5 gpw

With 36 clones in my area the canopy was too cramped and the buds were smaller overall.


When I grew with the 400 watt light I used about 3 x 3 of my space. This light would not adequately light the sides of my 4 x 4 space so I upgraded.

And when I got my 600 watter I used up all 4 x 4 of the floorspace. My yield was still .5 grams per watt.

A 1000 watter would light up 5 x 5 area well. And might be able to fit 7 or 8+ rows of zero veg sogged clones but I would still yield around .5 gpw lollypopped in my two liter hempys.

Adding more media per clone and stripping fans is the way to up my yield.

Keep in mind that my genetics are not considered a "SOG" strain. Ive crossed WP with a kush this year in an attempt to get better branching.

Jrosek was so successful with defol because he had that awesome branching indica BOG cut. He was getting over 1 GPW with those clones in buckets that were over 1 gallon. And High Country has those Genetics that grow into one long cola, perfect for Lolly-pop SOG.

 

[Greensub]

why don't u do it well & very often ?

your welcome

I hate typing (I need to get one of those voice recognition programs), and by nature I'm a very stoic/reserved individual.

 

[Greensub]

171 pages in this thread, wow.

Just wanted to post my notes - opinions lead nowhere, but I did do a side by side, AK-47 from clone, bothy clones rooted in 9 days, went into Happy Frog, vegged for 14 days in Happy Frog, no training, put in a 2 gallon container, flowered under a 400 watt SunPulse 4k bulb. Un-trained untopped, one had medium defoliation of blocking leaves, the other was left alone.

After reading this thread completely... it's what I would expect to happen. Thank you for confirming how not to apply this technique...

Now can I explain that better than the last 170 pages? I'm not certain.

problem is all these comparisons are flawed in some way or another, as well as that there are competing styles going on.

Did the defoliated plant take more or less cubic area than the control plant?

Where I've seen defoliation of this type (not what the OP suggested at all by the way) work in this thread has been when the poster was crowding their plants in their available space during flower. Overcrowding was causing poor light penetration and airflow, deleafing for them helped open up their space for both light and air and resulted in a net gain in their given circumstances. Some it helped open up their space so much that they felt able to add more flowering plants to their space (as well as more roots & medium) thus allowing them to pull more bud from the same cubic area.

 

[slowandeasy]

Your flowering time improved after removing ONLY fan leaves?

I've tried it with about a dozen strains, perhaps 15-20 plants total. Removing lower branches is a technique I do employ that does reduce flowering time, but removal of healthy, near-canopy fan leaves (which is a plants way of turning radiation into usable energy), is in my experience not an effective technique to improve yield. Science, or the biology plant life, doesn't really support the notion that removing a plants way of absorbing energy would increase a plants growth - bud growth or otherwise.

That said my results were the product of an 11 week long side by side grow in a controlled environment with no variable unaccounted for, I do know a few people here on the forums who have said they THINK they get better results from defoliation, but again to be fair you need to perform a controlled experiment, which isn't too hard to setup, it just takes some commitment, which I'm usually bad at . . .

To be fair, I only mean to say that defoliation, meaning the removal of otherwise healthy fan leaves, does not appear to be a viable way to increase yields, especially since those same fans can be bent or otherwise manipulated to allow light to reach lower bud sites. Removing lower branches to reduce the amount of energy the plant spends producing popcorn buds is a good practice, it's supported by science, and works well. Defoliation, insofar as my above description, seems counterproductive when the same result can be had without causing undue stress.

So many methods to improve yields, it's still hard to beat a good scrog but as you said different techniques for different people, how boring would this forum be if we all did it the same way . . . lol

Either way man, good luck to you and happy holidays - you said it best - a persons got to do whatever works best for them!

Yeah 3 different strains of mine all seem to finish faster from defoliating, that is the ONLY thing different from previous runs. My Sour Bubble is the only one I will never do it to again. Looks like you grow mostly Indica plants? For me, defoliating ruined my Sour Bubble...so it is strain dependent I believe. Defoliating in VEG is much different than just defoliating in Flower. You are right, it stresses the plant and stunts it...but given enough time it works well. Adding time to a grow is a waste...but if you have to Veg a long time it can be beneficial.

 

[slowandeasy]

My space is 4 x 4 and 4 and 1/2 feet tall. My height is restricted and that is why I grow SOG. Its an attic space that gets 85+ in the summer and has no airflow in the winter.

Your example adds an extra variable of Space to accommodate for the higher number of plants.

I used to grow with a 400 watt light in my area. I tried it with 5 rows of 5 and 6 rows of 6. Sometimes lolly-popping, sometimes not.

The yield was always around .5 gpw

With 36 clones in my area the canopy was too cramped and the buds were smaller overall.


When I grew with the 400 watt light I used about 3 x 3 of my space. This light would not adequately light the sides of my 4 x 4 space so I upgraded.

And when I got my 600 watter I used up all 4 x 4 of the floorspace. My yield was still .5 grams per watt.

A 1000 watter would light up 5 x 5 area well. And might be able to fit 7 or 8+ rows of zero veg sogged clones but I would still yield around .5 gpw lollypopped in my two liter hempys.

Adding more media per clone and stripping fans is the way to up my yield.

Keep in mind that my genetics are not considered a "SOG" strain. Ive crossed WP with a kush this year in an attempt to get better branching.

Jrosek was so successful with defol because he had that awesome branching indica BOG cut. He was getting over 1 GPW with those clones in buckets that were over 1 gallon. And High Country has those Genetics that grow into one long cola, perfect for Lolly-pop SOG.

Of course you can have too many plants in a space...but if you upgraded to a 600 and just added 1x1 of space and did not improve your yield...something is wrong! Lack of airflow and excessive heat could be one of your problems. If you want to get more out of the same set up next round take my advice and try some 1 Gal Smart Pots. I use them with Blumats and the yields are amazing for such a small pot. Just buy a couple and see the difference. Good job and thanks for posting.

 

[kcbudz31]

but if you upgraded to a 600 and just added 1x1 of space and did not improve your yield...something is wrong!

Not at all. You're thinking wrong. 3x3 = 9 square feet. 4x4 = 16 square feet, almost twice as much area. 400w/9 = 44w/sq ft, 600w/16 = 37.5w/sq ft. of course this doesnt factor in the additional intensity a 600w has over a 400

 

[Xare]

Of course you can have too many plants in a space...but if you upgraded to a 600 and just added 1x1 of space and did not improve your yield...something is wrong! Lack of airflow and excessive heat could be one of your problems. If you want to get more out of the same set up next round take my advice and try some 1 Gal Smart Pots. I use them with Blumats and the yields are amazing for such a small pot. Just buy a couple and see the difference. Good job and thanks for posting.

It did improve my yield. But .5 gpw on a 400 is not the same weight as .5 gpw on a 600

The 400 watt clones were 9-10 grams per and I got 8 to 9 ounces each rotation.

Then when I upgraded the light to the 600 the grams per clone went up and so did the overall yield.

Iam sure 1 gal smart pots would up my yield, but iam not exactly hurting on smoke right now. I have 4 ounces of bubble hash from this seasons outdoor to smoke lol

 

[TruthOrLie]

Once again I really appreciated the side by side Xare...

...and thanks for the hate Madrus Rose.

But an interesting point is raised,

25 plants under one bulb? That's crowded. Of course you're going to benefit from removing leaves because of more air flow. Not necessarily because "more light" is getting to buds.

If we don't account for all variables how can we come to understand the benefits of this technique?

If someone has a garden with ample air flow already, and then defoliates... and sees no gain, or even a loss... does this indicate that air flow is more critical than light exposure?

Y'all could hate on my blunt faced inquisitive nature or just learn to deal and have a health open discourse over the interwebs.

I got to go to the bathroom. I think this one might be a sneaker.

 

[Xare]

My environment is not the best but my yields have been fairly consistent.

During summer I have alot of airflow with hot periods. Then during winter my temps are more stable but I have to limit my air exchange or it would get too cold.

Everyone has to deal with the seasons and I do not have a perfect insulated grow room.

There is an extra oscillating fan right in the grow space to ensure that air is moving under the light.

The high plant numbers of a SOG is a benefit for my particular setup because of my height restriction.

I have to grow a bigger number of plants so that I can fill up my floorspace. If I vegged a plant for a period of time and put it in a 5 gallon bucket I would quickly have height problems.

My 9 footers are grown outdoors. And inside I tinker with zero veg SOG clones. And just keep some moms alive.

 

[Xare]

As it is I barley get by on the height I have now. When I put a 7 inch rooted clone into 12/12 it triples in height in two weeks and will finish around 21 inches.

The minimum number of clones for a zero veg SOG is 16. But I happen to have a 40 Spot bubble cloner and because I was using two liters I thought it would be a better idea to have 5 rows of 5 instead of 4 rows of 4.

As I see it 25 of these in a 4 x 4 is not crowded but when you up it to 36 you get diminishing returns. The yield will be slightly more but at the cost of smaller average buds all around. A difference of 8 or 9 ounces under a 400 and 11 or 12 under a 600.

One of the main benefits of a SOG is the nicer finished product and 25 individuals makes for better looking buds then with 36.

Having said that I have not tried to defol with 6 rows of 6 yet. Ive only lolly'ed or Vanilla with 36 under a light a couple times.

 

[slowandeasy]

Not at all. You're thinking wrong. 3x3 = 9 square feet. 4x4 = 16 square feet, almost twice as much area. 400w/9 = 44w/sq ft, 600w/16 = 37.5w/sq ft. of course this doesnt factor in the additional intensity a 600w has over a 400

I am not thinking wrong. That is my point. GPW is not a good measurement. If you read my example a few posts back, you would understand. A 600 watt light in a 3x3 space will not have as big of a GPW as a 600 watt light in a 4x4 space. I know how to figure square ft. He was trying to say plant numbers are irrelevant. I beg to differ! If you have 10 plants in a 3x3 space with a 600 watt HPS, and 14 plants in a 4x4 space your GPW should be much higher in the 4x4 tent, because of the 4 extra plants. The 600 HPS is plenty strong for both areas, if you do not improve GPW in the 4x4 area...something is wrong.

 

[slowandeasy]

It did improve my yield. But .5 gpw on a 400 is not the same weight as .5 gpw on a 600

The 400 watt clones were 9-10 grams per and I got 8 to 9 ounces each rotation.

Then when I upgraded the light to the 600 the grams per clone went up and so did the overall yield.

Iam sure 1 gal smart pots would up my yield, but iam not exactly hurting on smoke right now. I have 4 ounces of bubble hash from this seasons outdoor to smoke lol

Cool man, I was just giving you a suggestion...since increasing your yield was the point of trying defoliation. Why not get the most out of your light if you can? You said adding more medium helped your yield, my guess is your roots are getting bound up in those Coke bottles. That is why Smart Pots works so well, they air prune the roots, so they never circle. Again, good work and I am just trying to help. Take care.

 

[Xare]

Cool man, I was just giving you a suggestion...since increasing your yield was the point of trying defoliation. Why not get the most out of your light if you can? You said adding more medium helped your yield, my guess is your roots are getting bound up in those Coke bottles. That is why Smart Pots works so well, they air prune the roots, so they never circle. Again, good work and I am just trying to help. Take care.

My SOG is on hold for now. Iam moving soon and everything I learned will be put to use later. With some one Gallon Hempys that get stripped of fans.

Hey check out what the two liter roots look like.

My one gallon hempy tester was really full of roots too.

 

[slowandeasy]

My SOG is on hold for now. Iam moving soon and everything I learned will be put to use later. With some one Gallon Hempys that get stripped of fans.

Hey check out what the two liter roots look like.

My one gallon hempy tester was really full of roots too.

Sweet man, you should see the roots inside a 1 Gal Smart Pot...it looks like a porcupine! The point straight out in every direction! Good luck bro, thanks again!

 

[Greensub]

That said my results were the product of an 11 week long side by side grow in a controlled environment with no variable unaccounted for, I do know a few people here on the forums who have said they THINK they get better results from defoliation, but again to be fair you need to perform a controlled experiment, which isn't too hard to setup, it just takes some commitment, which I'm usually bad at . . .

To be fair... you can never change one variable and maximize results.

What do I mean? Let's say I want to compare container size performance and do a side by side with a 5 gal. and a 10 gal. You wouldn't want to water them exactly the same (different amounts of water needed to effect the same % of moisture content within different sized containers.) If you were to keep all variables the same i.e. same watering schedule you would either be over-watering one or under-watering the other, or you could water in between the two and be off in both directions. Certain variables have to change to maximize the difference in technique.

Or to look at it slightly differently... in that example the variable we wish to keep as a constant is the % of moisture content in the medium. To maintain that variable as a constant it requires the variables of frequency & amount of water to have to change.

Nothing can be proved by epidemiological studies alone... statistics & data can be gathered for the record & for study but always remember correlation is not causation.

We have so many measurements of yeild for growing... height, width, weight, gpw, gpm (squared)...

I think that in this thread we are looking at a new measurement standard... gram per cubic foot. This thread is about maximizing gram per cubic foot.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

To be fair... you can never change one variable and maximize results.

What do I mean? Let's say I want to compare container size performance and do a side by side with a 5 gal. and a 10 gal. You wouldn't want to water them exactly the same (different amounts of water needed to effect the same % of moisture content within different sized containers.) If you were to keep all variables the same i.e. same watering schedule you would either be over-watering one or under-watering the other, or you could water in between the two and be off in both directions. Certain variables have to change to maximize the difference in technique.

Or to look at it slightly differently... in that example the variable we wish to keep as a constant is the % of moisture content in the medium. To maintain that variable as a constant it requires the variables of frequency & amount of water to have to change.

Nothing can be proved by epidemiological studies alone... statistics & data can be gathered for the record & for study but always remember correlation is not causation.

We have so many measurements of yeild for growing... height, width, weight, gpw, gpm (squared)...

I think that in this thread we are looking at a new measurement standard... gram per cubic foot. This thread is about maximizing gram per cubic foot.

a better measurement would be weight / watt / space / time.

grams per watt per cubic foot over the course of a year, perhaps.

A 10% increase in yield per space could not be counted as an increase if it took 10% longer, or 25% more wattage, for example.

 

[Greensub]

Love the smart pots too... I'm using 10 gallons and have been happy with them, I can't imagine out-growing them in my current application.

 

[gnarly]

GPW is not an accurate measurement anyhow. And plant count is relevant! Let's say you have a 600 watt HPS in a 3x3 space and you fit 10 plants in that area. Now lets say you have a 4x4 tent right next to it with the same 600 watt HPS, but you can fit 14 same sized plants in that space. Which one will yield more? Same amount of Watts, but you can fit 4 more plants under the same light. The 600 is plenty light for both spaces, but you should yield more in the 4x4 space.

How big is your space?

you're comparing increased canopy area AND plant count. that's not very fair.

Within reason, plant count is not a factor.