Merkel says German multi-cultural society has failed
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Chong_Irie
So your aim is to keep America culture "pure" when it is already "tainted."
The only pure culture is a dead one.
As someone who lived in a Turkish ghetto in Bonn for about 7 months while studying. I've got some thoughts on this as it applies specifically to the German situation with the Turks.
1. The first thing I noticed was that the Germans didn't pay much mind to the Turks. That is, they didn't really talk about them much, just accepted them as part of everyday life. When asked, some students mentioned to me they didn't like that they were basically living off of the social welfare system there and nothing more, but felt empathy for their plight. No negative feelings from the Germans toward the Turks that I witnessed.
2. The Turkish population was segregated into specific areas. I lived in a place of mixed student/Turkish housing, but few if any working German people. These were huge hi-rise apartments outside of town and were very much so Turkish communities. The shopping center I lived near catered almost entirely to this population. The Turks seemed to like it this way.
3. Most Turks showed no interest in "becoming German". The Turks are given every opportunity to learn the German language, get a good job and even go to college. *Most* did not seem to have any interest in doing this, but rather hung out in the public housing areas and either did nothing all day or sold hash. I say "most" because I had two Turkish student friends who went through the integration process and were attending school. But again, the vast majority just hung around the public housing all day and night. I know they did not attend the German language classes because I attended those classes and they were virtually Turk-free.
4. The only problems I witnessed involving Turkish disputes with Germans originated with the Turks. Once, I was with a group of German friends, some Turkish kids said some bullshit to us, one of the Germans snapped back at the kid, they fought, the kid got on his phone and a few minutes later we were being chased by a huge group of Turks. We got to the U-Bahn before anything bad happened. The other time happened to a friend of mine (female) who was beaten and robbed by a Turkish dude. I never once saw or heard of an incident involving a German instigating a fight with a Turk, though I'm sure that happened, I never saw it.
5. The Turkish hash was better than the African hash, but still suspect. Kabobs = awesome, Turkish Pizza = suck.
I would say Merkel is right but they should have seen this coming. Most of the Turks are there to live off of the social welfare system and nothing more. They didn't seem like a serious threat to the Germans, but weren't really adding anything to the system either.
1. The first thing I noticed was that the Germans didn't pay much mind to the Turks. That is, they didn't really talk about them much, just accepted them as part of everyday life. When asked, some students mentioned to me they didn't like that they were basically living off of the social welfare system there and nothing more, but felt empathy for their plight. No negative feelings from the Germans toward the Turks that I witnessed.
2. The Turkish population was segregated into specific areas. I lived in a place of mixed student/Turkish housing, but few if any working German people. These were huge hi-rise apartments outside of town and were very much so Turkish communities. The shopping center I lived near catered almost entirely to this population. The Turks seemed to like it this way.
3. Most Turks showed no interest in "becoming German". The Turks are given every opportunity to learn the German language, get a good job and even go to college. *Most* did not seem to have any interest in doing this, but rather hung out in the public housing areas and either did nothing all day or sold hash. I say "most" because I had two Turkish student friends who went through the integration process and were attending school. But again, the vast majority just hung around the public housing all day and night. I know they did not attend the German language classes because I attended those classes and they were virtually Turk-free.
4. The only problems I witnessed involving Turkish disputes with Germans originated with the Turks. Once, I was with a group of German friends, some Turkish kids said some bullshit to us, one of the Germans snapped back at the kid, they fought, the kid got on his phone and a few minutes later we were being chased by a huge group of Turks. We got to the U-Bahn before anything bad happened. The other time happened to a friend of mine (female) who was beaten and robbed by a Turkish dude. I never once saw or heard of an incident involving a German instigating a fight with a Turk, though I'm sure that happened, I never saw it.
5. The Turkish hash was better than the African hash, but still suspect. Kabobs = awesome, Turkish Pizza = suck.
I would say Merkel is right but they should have seen this coming. Most of the Turks are there to live off of the social welfare system and nothing more. They didn't seem like a serious threat to the Germans, but weren't really adding anything to the system either.
LonelyNerd
Member
thanks man. We've had violent racial riots over the last couple of years, especially at the beaches. after bashing each other for 30+ years it kinda gets pointless. We try to live all peacefully now.
read what you wrote you sound as insane as Hitler.
Hitler references are exactly what are needed when talking about a country that gassed say 6 million people after turning another 3-7 into refugees. Ever sense then it has been known as the mecca for neo nazi ideology and fanaticitizm. Why not talk about it sense it permeates the culture and is part of the national identity at this point? The conservative leader has made many comments along the same lines and was voted into power playing the immigration cards to the fears of the citezens.
As for the world you dream of............................keep dreaming.
As for the world you dream of............................keep dreaming.
I
InvisibleEmpire
PS: Spell check. You are generalizing and saying that everyone who goes to or lives in Germany cradles neo-nazi ideology and extremism. That's like me saying all the black people in my city are murderers, thugs and thieves. There may be a good portion who act in that way or support that type of ideology, but generalizing an entire population base is absurd.
I don't even necessarily 'dream' that it will one day take place, I know it won't, but I will admit that the thought of having cultures separated in modern-day society has crossed my mind and I have wondered how society would be affected as far as morals, ethics, religion, etc.
So what sort of segregation would you put me into?.....what bracket?
I'm a Gypsy....but I don't travel by caravan any more even though I was born in one....I take an A380 or a 747......truck, car, bus or train.....and I am not happy living in any one country.....this is my world as much as it is anyone else's and I have a right as you do too to be where ever and when ever....no matter if I hop a freight, hitch-hike or drive there....
Yeah I was born in England, but I don't own it and if anyone said to me that I have to 'go home' and leave where ever I am or face getting corralled in a segregated concentration camp then I would just move on and go somewhere else.....somewhere safe where I can live and work in peace....
I have seen many people (not just immigrants) taking advantage of social welfare systems in most all wealthy western countries.....the lazy, the disillusioned, the inept, the un-lucky.....but all of these people must be contributing something even if its just children that grow up and learn and work.....they are consumers and have to buy stuff to exist so it keeps whatever pittance they are given going around in that particular economy ......
The problems we have in this world are because of segregation, borders, religion and politicians that are feeding the frenzy of nationalistic, jingoistic, war-mongering racism which always needs a scape-goat to get the electorate on the war-path....
E
elmanito
There is a big difference between the Turks from the west of Turkey and from the east in mentality.Those from the west are hard workers, speak foreign languages and do the same as we do.From the east are different, are more members of the orthodox Islam community and speak no other language than Turkish.Not all Turkish are the same.
The vegetable/fruit trade are in hands of Turks, so if the Germans want the Turks to leave Germany, you can say your Sauerkraut goodbye.
Another thing is that what i have seen in Holland that Germans often have difficulty to speak English, so if they want to find their way in Holland they ask you in German where they have to go or they dig holes at the beach.
Namaste
The vegetable/fruit trade are in hands of Turks, so if the Germans want the Turks to leave Germany, you can say your Sauerkraut goodbye.
Another thing is that what i have seen in Holland that Germans often have difficulty to speak English, so if they want to find their way in Holland they ask you in German where they have to go or they dig holes at the beach.
Namaste
I
InvisibleEmpire
TBH, I don't even know what a gypsy is, LOL I just buy seeds off you
You are a proponent of globalization I see...I don't support that. It's a fundamental belief that I have...if society worked differently I could, in some dream world, support globalization. Unfortunately the system is controlled by money, which is controlled and held by the elite (in this world: politicians, government officials, corporations - everyone except 'the people') who make up 1% of the population and control 40% of the wealth in the world.... (see: zeitgeist: addendum)
knowing that, any system of globalization will be abused and controlled to line to pockets of a few and take from the poor.
The 'ideas' are good things to ponder, but what is actually feasible in the society today is completely different than these 'great ideas'...
its not about the turks...its a 3 genaration problem of imigrants - happen in almost all countries!!
The first generation worked very hard to supporting the family in the homecountry.....the can/could speak german more or less...just enough for the daliy needs!
The second generation was/is very good integrated - the speak very german well and have a very good/ higher education...
The problem is the third one!!
The dont feel at home, the dont like the country they are living in and could not identify with the country at all - the wanna go back to their home countrys!!
they dont understand that their grandparents/parents just wanna give them and themselfs a better life!! they life in subcultures...!!
Sadly in their homecountry they are also no realy turks or whatever!!
and the real turks are totally diffrent as the 3. generation of imigrants are!!
In USA its the same with the mexicans
The first generation worked very hard to supporting the family in the homecountry.....the can/could speak german more or less...just enough for the daliy needs!
The second generation was/is very good integrated - the speak very german well and have a very good/ higher education...
The problem is the third one!!
The dont feel at home, the dont like the country they are living in and could not identify with the country at all - the wanna go back to their home countrys!!
they dont understand that their grandparents/parents just wanna give them and themselfs a better life!! they life in subcultures...!!
Sadly in their homecountry they are also no realy turks or whatever!!
and the real turks are totally diffrent as the 3. generation of imigrants are!!
In USA its the same with the mexicans
Merkel has brought it really well to the point! Guest workers were brought in but no one was interested
in helping out for their education and their integration in the German society and art of living! Everyone hoped,
as Merkel mentioned, that the guest workers will "disappear" from themselves! Simply WOW!
50 years later, they've realized their errors and they pushing the blame on the immigrants and the multi-culti!
in helping out for their education and their integration in the German society and art of living! Everyone hoped,
as Merkel mentioned, that the guest workers will "disappear" from themselves! Simply WOW!
50 years later, they've realized their errors and they pushing the blame on the immigrants and the multi-culti!
So what you're saying is the Turks in the east aren't hard workers and don't speak foreign languages? I think you have it backwards man. Have you been to the east?
You all have to realize that the immigrants coming to places like Germany are villagers. These people are uneducated, and have very different cultural values. Sure, they may pick up language, but that doesn't mean you're educated. When people immigrate to another country, they often hold on to their cultural identity even more. Some of the most nationalist people don't even live in the country they are being so proud of.
This article was obviously published by an ultra right wing german nationalist christian wacko, but you can't label all Germans as nazis, and you can't label all Turks as stupid muslims. Everyone is so scared of Islam because of it's growing power that they are developing xenophobia.
Who the fuck would want to become a Christian and who the fuck would want to become a German? Assume no identity and burn all flags. What's in your blood is what's true.
So, you think folks simply fear that Islam is growing in power? Could there possibly be anything else to fear from Islam? I mean, xenophobia is only concerned with the fear of a person because they are foreign to the land. Is that all you think is happening, people fearing Islam just because it is growing?
The secular amongst us need to do some real reading...not Niche or Marx, try reading the Koran if you want some real insight into what and why the Islamic nation does anything. Doing so will bring a whole new context to the arguments made here.
Then for some comparisons, read the christian Bible.
But wait...that just isn't going to happen is it? None here are going to read either one, are they? Of course not. We will continue to bloviate and not really have much of a clue as to what we are talking about. Always talking in wild platitudes and throwing out speculative bullshit, and never really touching on the TRUE issue behind every bit of this.
The Mexican deal in the US is NOTHING at all like the issue with Islamic immigration in Europe.
almostoverit
Member
E
elmanito
Sorry mate, i've Turkish friends who do say the same and they are from the West.We don't have here any problems with Turkish people, but more with people from Morocco who are from the mountain area (Rif mountains).I don't have any problems with Islam or what sort of believe/religion, but more with intolerance and that counts also for certain Christian communities.I'm totally not a fan of Wilders, because he is also intolerant and has an one site view of the Islam religion.
To answer your other question no i've never been to the east of Turkey and i'm not planning to.
Namaste
Maria_Vanessa
Member
This needs to be repeated over and over again because some of the people here actually have the audacity to think that immigrants and "their failure to assimilate" is the problem. In the article, the problem is as clear as day. The problem are the politicians and the businesses and benefit from cheap immigrant labor.
Politicians and businesses want to import and hire immigrants that do know how speak the native language to work for cheap wages and they do not want to hire native residents. Why can't some of you understand this? If you don't like immigrants coming into your country to work, then educate yourself and stop supporting politicians like Merkel and the companies that hire them.
Did Stormfront happen to shut down their stoner section? Why are some members reducing themselves to their base fears and xenophobic paranoia of people of different cultures? I thought all members of ICMag would be smart enough to see right through this article to figure out what's really going on. This article has nothing to do with multiculturism, immigrants, etc. It's all about pure greed from business that hire cheap labor and the politicians that pander to stay in power.
Yeah, I think that much of the fear stems from the fact that there is a growing power on this earth that doesn't have borders, has lots of money, and is more dedicated to something than most people will ever be in their lives. And that power is in YOUR country. If a nation believes they are strong and powerful, and all of a sudden there is some other power that may be a potential threat (look at the US), then of course, they are going to take action. Violence is an action of fear. However, I cannot compare Germany to the US, because this is just the case of one right wing group of people who claim they are simply fed up with people not assimilating to their nationalism, but you can't deny this fear is present.
The xenophobia is created from the fact that a foreigner represents the fear. I mean, some ignorant people will even see a sikh east indian and think he is a muslim terrorist. When incorrect news is pumped at everyone everyday about terrorism, islam power, etc, they become so scared that anything foreign becomes a threat.
I'm not saying Islam promotes violence, but it is a power thing, and can take control quite easily. Look at what has happened to Turkey in the past 15 years.
I live Turkey. I am not a muslim, but I know how things work, and I know how the rest of the world views Turkey. You can read all you want, but if you really want to see truth, you should experience it first hand.
Well said man, this was my exact reaction to the article, but after reading everyone's point of view, I had to give mine about theirs.
It's this capitalist system that depends so much on the lowest working man to make it run, and in turn treats him like shit.
People bitch and complain so much about people taking their jobs, but if they were clever enough, they would find a solution, like seeking higher education or even moving somewhere else to find employment. People immigrate for this reason, and it's not easy.
Obviously Germany screwed up because they were trying to build up their capital by benefiting at low cost through inviting all of these people in the 70's. Now they are kicking themselves after realizing people won't assimilate if given low wages and poor living conditions due to being uneducated. It's cause and effect. It really comes down to education. The ones who are educated are the ones who are more involved in society, but there are just so many other variables as well. Even if education is given for FREE, some people still won't take it, and choose to take the handouts like social welfare. It is a cultural thing that happens everywhere in the world. We just have to accept that for now, and help eachother out, everyone has their part in society.
Then some reading is a must for you. Only then will you start to grasp the real situation.
Look man, this isn't an argument about religion.
If you want to debate about religion, let's start a new thread.
I don't even know what you're trying to say, you think Islam is bad or good for the world? Why do you have mevleviyye on your avatar? You make no concrete statements other than "go read this and that." Maybe you should read the article in the first post again and we can direct the talk more towards that again.
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