FLUSHING ORGANICS - Blood+bone vs Guanos vs Bottled Organic Nutrients

[Microbeman]

I can attest that high levels of humic acid smothers microbes in informal sloppy testing CT Guy and I did. I did try some humic acid (12%) in ACT years ago but did not notice any great benefit so I discontinued. I should revisit some time with some variances.

This could be of interest;
http://www.blackearth.com

 

[guest2012y]

Let me ask people this...what do you think are the major contributing factors to poor quality smoke. Is it chlorophyll, N, MG or ???

Good question.
I used to think chlorophyll from a hasty drying process was the culprit to harsh smoke,and on pre-organic grows it seemed overdoses of nitrogen an other synthetic salt ferts/nutes would definitely make for a harsh smoking herb.
Even on some of my more un-refined organic grows I have thought it to be overuse of ferts/nutes.
Now that I have what I like to believe is a balanced living soil,I don't really run into those issues anymore. I indeed feel a lot has to do with how well the living balance in the soil is per type of plant and method grown.
Then again,the final curing method has a bit to do with the end result. Curing well is definitely a practice that is experienced best through trial and error. Just a few thoughts on that.

 

[CT Guy]

I can attest that high levels of humic acid smothers microbes in informal sloppy testing CT Guy and I did. I did try some humic acid (12%) in ACT years ago but did not notice any great benefit so I discontinued. I should revisit some time with some variances.

This could be of interest;
http://www.blackearth.com

I tried again with the Tera Vita and the Bio Ag and used smaller %s and still got the same result. Couldn't get any significant biological growth. In fact, the straight water (control) looked better. Can't say this was with stringent controls, but it supports the other testing we did (and yes it was sloppy).

 

[Yankee Grower]

gimme some credit

LOL...sorry ...still don't think you're getting the full story on some of this stuff though or maybe some of what I've been told about all of this, and won't say what stuff specifically and by whom, was a lie? I'll take my lumps on bad info...

Interesting thing about something like 1 lb of 15 micron lignite, Micromate, is it has a surface area of about 1/2 an acre. Imagine if someone could get it down to say 5 microns or smaller how much increased surface area there would be and what the increase in effectiveness would be. There's problems associated with trying to mill and handle lignite that small.

In regards to the actual thread topic...

Then again,the final curing method has a bit to do with the end result. Curing well is definitely a practice that is experienced best through trial and error.

Curing to me is a bit more art than science and an important part in the whole picture but also you can't cure poorly grown weed and make it good. I have my opinions about what makes for bad smoke and remaining chlorophyll is low on the list...

 

[Yankee Grower]

Spurr - to end this convo for me and keep this thread on track...lol...only thing I can say is some of the info I got does not jive with yours. I don't fully understand how what I was told fits into the processing of either some or all of BioAg's humic products in regards to what you were told/posted and honestly not critical for me to know and letting it go.

As for the whole micronization thing, and not about the efficacy of mironized lignite, came across some 'proprietary' info. I should not have said anything cause I can't get into details. It's not rocket science type stuff but definitely different than what peeps are used to seeing for processing and I believe, based on the information I've obtained through reliable sources, that it does make a difference in the effectiveness of something like HC over other whole humate products and even in some cases HA extracts.

I'll STFU now regarding anything other than the thread topic

 

[3rdEye]

Let me ask people this...what do you think are the major contributing factors to poor quality smoke. Is it chlorophyll, N, MG or ???

Since this is related to the thread...

Yankee G I think stored sugars and sugar alcohols in the plant are likely to have a taste-able impact on the smoke in terms of harshness. It seems less likely, at least in organic growing, that the plant could be forcefully pumped full of these nutrients to a degree that would have much impact. I say this since these compounds are already in the plant in huge amounts. That's why i don't think the concentration of free N, Mg or whatever, could be high enough relative to the mass already present, to have a large impact.

That and i think that quite many things get lost during the drying/curing process including volatile gases that are degradation products.

About the sugar thing... i have found, now this is "only" anecdotal, that if i harvest my plants after they have been in the dark for a few hours or right before lights on, then they have much smoother smoke. I've done this now with several runs with different clones and it appears to be holding true. The sugars get shunted down into the roots at night, so harvesting this way means less sugars in the leaves.

I'm thinking here that sugars, which are highly water soluble, can be present in large enough concentrations to affect taste. Just think of what happens to sugars when you heat them? They caramelize.

Seems like a somewhat reasoned line of thought.

 

[Yankee Grower]

I'm thinking here that sugars, which are highly water soluble, can be present in large enough concentrations to affect taste. Just think of what happens to sugars when you heat them? They caramelize.

Seems like a somewhat reasoned line of thought.

I remember sitting with a grower here from IC and he said he always cut things down before the lights went on. Outdoors I would cut em down before the sun came up. After some years of growing indoors found myself going with like a 48 hour off cycle before cutting and made a bit of a difference in the end but just a piece however still a good point!

That's why i don't think the concentration of free N, Mg or whatever, could be high enough relative to the mass already present, to have a large impact.

Mg is a 'bad' one and more of an influence than N in my book...makes the smoke hot. Have you ever burned some pure Mg metal? You cannot put that fire out with water and can damage your eyes looking into the 'flame'! Part of it is the 'salt' content in plant tissue including traces which are also a 'bad' one. For some to say you can't 'stuff' plant tissue with salts does not jive with what I saw with GH 3 part. The texture of the dried buds is even different...yuck...and came during the growth cycle which I could not flush out...of course I was trying to overdo it a bit and push them...heh heh.

 

[MrFista]

"The sugars get shunted down into the roots at night" - ???

Ions build up in roots overnight to create a gradient for water to be taken up which follows in the morning.

Sugars are broken down in the curing process. Plants store sugars as starch in parenchyma cells, sugar storage in roots is more an attribute of the beet family and other biennials in the first year of growth where they are storing energy for the second years reproductive cycle where the root's sugars get used up in initial vegetative spurt and then reproduction.

I think the best way to get a smooth smoke on is add no ferts at all during the entire growing season. this means getting the soil right in the first place and having good biology in place to do the work. Anything else is clumsy human fumbling trying to second guess nature.

 

[Carl Carlson]

FYI ya'll, this is from studies conducted on conventional farms:

GONNELLA et al. (2004) reported that the replacement of the nutrient solution with rain water three days before harvesting resulted in one third of the nitrate reduction in leaves. These results are in agreement with the findings of MARTIGNON et al., 1994 for endive and celery. By eliminating 90% of N in the nutrient solution one week prior to harvest, the nitrate content of endive (Chicorium endivia L. var. crispum Hegi) leaves was halved and decreased by 56% and 32%, in leaf blades and in the ribs of celery, respectively (MARTIGNON et al., 1994).

source: Journal of Applied Botany and Food Quality 82, 141 - 147 (2009)
Humboldt University of Berlin, Institute for Horticultural Sciences
Do soilless culture systems have an influence on product quality of vegetables? (.pdf) pg. 4
N. Gruda
(Received March 28, 2008)

 

[3rdEye]

"The sugars get shunted down into the roots at night" - ???

Ions build up in roots overnight to create a gradient for water to be taken up which follows in the morning.

Sugars are broken down in the curing process. Plants store sugars as starch in parenchyma cells, sugar storage in roots is more an attribute of the beet family and other biennials in the first year of growth where they are storing energy for the second years reproductive cycle where the root's sugars get used up in initial vegetative spurt and then reproduction.

I think the best way to get a smooth smoke on is add no ferts at all during the entire growing season. this means getting the soil right in the first place and having good biology in place to do the work. Anything else is clumsy human fumbling trying to second guess nature.

Thank you kindly for the more accurate info Mr Fista. Not sure what i was thinking there. I certainly didn't mean to imply that plants like cannabis "store" sugar in their roots as such. I need to proof read more. lol That and it's been a while since i even went over some basics in plant physiology. I stand humbly corrected.

Other than an occasional top dressing with a few odds and ends and some teas my plants don't get nutrients during their growth cycle.

Yankee Grower another correction and very good point about the magnesium. It doesn't take much Mg to have quite an dramatic effect. As for whether it is sugars or not? All i know is that in the few blind taste/smoke tests we did; the bud that was cut before lights on has been the favorite. Given same clone/light/cure/etc

 

[Yankee Grower]

All i know is that in the few blind taste/smoke tests we did; the bud that was cut before lights on has been the favorite. Given same clone/light/cure/etc

Mr. Fista can elaborate better as to what that's all about as I'm a dork. If sugar or starch how does that break down in a cure enviro? Biochemically what is happening during the cure? Some great bookworms/academics here which I'm not.

 

[Microbeman]

I think the best way to get a smooth smoke on is add no ferts at all during the entire growing season. this means getting the soil right in the first place and having good biology in place to do the work. Anything else is clumsy human fumbling trying to second guess nature.

I like that way of putting things Mister.

 

[3rdEye]

Yankee Grower it's because of articles like this: http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=10&id=130

.. that i thought that it was sugar translocation to the roots that is partially responsible for establishing an osmotic gradient that contributed to the uptake of water. As i said it's been a while and i'm open to being very in need of more accurate info.

As for the break down process? That would require adequate water in the tissue to facilitate the decomposition of the sugars. Which might account for why it's better to have dry the plants at a more moderate rate to make sure water doesn't get lost too fast.

 

[Yankee Grower]

Yankee Grower it's because of articles like this:

I've been more a grower than researcher.

As for the break down process? That would require adequate water in the tissue to facilitate the decomposition of the sugars. Which might account for why it's better to have dry the plants at a more moderate rate to make sure water doesn't get lost too fast.

When I'm in the cure mode ain't much moisture left so what's the catalyst for biochemical reactions? Bro this is something I've thought about a lot. Too much H2O2 and mold. Water is a solvent and supports biochemical reactions. This stuff is pretty easy to test for with some basic lab work but since canna is still 'illegal' will have to wait a bit...

How can peeps say what is happening during the cure when I've yet to see any research to that fact...eh?

 

[3rdEye]

I've been more a grower than researcher.


When I'm in the cure mode ain't much moisture left so what's the catalyst for biochemical reactions? Bro this is something I've thought about a lot. Too much H2O2 and mold. Water is a solvent and supports biochemical reactions. This stuff is pretty easy to test for with some basic lab work but since canna is still 'illegal' will have to wait a bit...

How can peeps say what is happening during the cure when I've yet to see any research to that fact...eh?

So what are your suspicions as to the major elements responsible for smooth smoke then?

How can people say stuff? Gotta at least try and guess sometimes

 

[NUG-JUG]

This stuff is pretty easy to test for with some basic lab work but since canna is still 'illegal' will have to wait a bit...

How can peeps say what is happening during the cure when I've yet to see any research to that fact...eh?

I read that since cannabis is a schedule 1 drug testing is hard, and there's only one place to get research pot..mississippi, and it's grown by
Dr. Mahmoud Elsohly, probably some shit i wouldn't even want to smoke for free..

 

[MrFista]

When you cure buds there is a little moisture left, not a lot, but it's there. There should still be a little moisture in the buds when they are finished curing too. The moisture in the sealed jar gets recycled around and round, it's a closed system. How can I say such things, chemistry education. Try adding a bit more water, it will break down a bit faster, it'll break right down into compost. The burping removes some water as gas but most of it will be readsorbed by the plant material.

 

[Yankee Grower]

When you cure buds there is a little moisture left, not a lot, but it's there. There should still be a little moisture in the buds when they are finished curing too. The moisture in the sealed jar gets recycled around and round, it's a closed system. How can I say such things, chemistry education. Try adding a bit more water, it will break down a bit faster, it'll break right down into compost. The burping removes some water as gas but most of it will be readsorbed by the plant material.

How much moisture is left? What % moisture level is acceptable for a proper cure? What % moisture level is too much before you start to get mold? What components/compounds are breaking down during a cure and what are they breaking down into? How is this beneficial to creating better smoke? Since you have a chemistry education what's going on? Eh?

Burping? If you open a jar and any release of gas like in a 'pop' (positive pressure) when you break the seal it's a bad thing.

I'm serious. I have no degree. What is actually happening during the cure? Is chlorophyll breaking down? You're reply was pretty much useless. 'Try adding a bit more water'...why? When should I do this? Should I be composting the herb in my jar before I smoke it?

Determining moisture levels in something is easy. Weigh the sample, dry it, weigh it again as in something like AOAC 930.15 LOL!!!

Grow more and study less!

 

[MrFista]

I don't have the time to teach you chemistry.

You found the post useless because you took an antagonistic position and interpreted my words to mean things I didn't say gleaning no meaning and making up rubbish from it.

You haven't got a degree - no shit. Degrees don't mean that much though, I listen to Jaykush all the time, no degree but the mans a Dr in my book.

I just edited out a rather heated reply to your post. I still think your full of it. I suggest you get all of your burning questions and google them, then read the results. These will lead to more questions, google them, carry on.