FLUSHING ORGANICS - Blood+bone vs Guanos vs Bottled Organic Nutrients

[spurr]

With the 'right' mix you can use up to about 40% EWC.

Most studies looking at usage rates of ewc find from 10-20% is ideal, over 20% isn't needed and has been found to offer no additional benefit. There has been a lot of study in this area in the past decade. WormPower has provided much ewc for study by various US University.

Adding too much OM with high bulk density will decrease air porosity and increase water-holding capacity too far, which is not good. We want to insure air porosity stays high in media for best growth of plants and aerobic microbes. The pic you posted of the plant in the tiny pot doesn't mean tiny pots are good, they aren't. Right after watering a pot that small there will be too low in air porosity (i.e. anaerobic media) unless the media is 100% peat or coco, etc.


RE: humacarb:

It looks like it's simply micronized lignite or leronadite, even the company claims it has "low solubility". Basically it seems that Humacarb is straight lignite/leronadite, which won't provide the benefits that humic acid liquid will provide. And humic acid liquid will provide many of the same benefits that used to be only attributed to fulvic acid.

Humic acid liquid is not synthetic as Humacarb seem to infer, it's the same stating material as humacarb (apparently), but through the process of exaction and neutralization the humic substances become bio-available and soluble. The humic substances in Humacarb are not bio-available (to the plant) nor are they soluble. Humacarb seems to be best used as a microbial feedstock, ex. to feed fungi.

Humacarb isn't nearly the same thing has humic acid liquid if Humacarb is merely micronized lignite or leronadite. Humacarb will not offer anywhere near the bio-availability to plants as does humic acid liquid.

It's probbly a better be to include humus rich compost or vermicompost to media than to add humacarb. It seem like GH "Dimaond Black" is the same thing as Humacarb...

 

[spurr]

But I agree, probably enough talk about humates and humic acid in this thread. I will cease and desist on the topic

 

[Yankee Grower]

Humic acid liquid is not synthetic as Humacarb seem to infer, it's the same stating material as humacarb (apparently), but through the process of exaction and neutralization the humic substances become bio-available and soluble. The humic substances in Humacarb are not bio-available (to the plant) nor are they soluble. Humacarb seems to be best used as a microbial feedstock, ex. to feed fungi.

Humacarb isn't nearly the same thing has humic acid liquid if Humacarb is merely micronized lignite or leronadite. Humacarb will not offer anywhere near the bio-availability to plants as does humic acid liquid.

It's probbly a better be to include humus rich compost or vermicompost to media than to add humacarb. It seem like GH "Dimaond Black" is the same thing as Humacarb...

Most humic acid products are actually salts and not acids due to the extraction process(es) used. HumaCarb is not Diamond Black...for starters DB is a powder and HC is a liquid and there's reasons why that makes a big difference.

HumaCarb outperforms HA liquids. You can even use HC in certain hydroponic applications...lol.

I'd agree that it's better to use humus rich compost instead of a product like this but if peeps want to use a humic 'product' then HC is a worthy choice IMO/IME especially in an organic program.

Catch you in another thread!

 

[guest2012y]

"Most studies looking at usage rates of ewc find from 10-20% is ideal, over 20% isn't needed and has been found to offer no additional benefit."

Running my own experiments with EWC this statement seems to describe what percentages seem ideal in my mix. I never measure anymore,but I keep a sort of mental picture of overall mass involving what goes/and is in my soil. It's not quite 1/4 EWC in the mix..

 

[spurr]

Yankee wrote:

Most humic acid products are actually salts and not acids due to the extraction process(es) used. HumaCarb is not Diamond Black...for starters DB is a powder and HC is a liquid and there's reasons why that makes a big difference..

OK, I'm confused, Humacarb is simply micronized coal, that's it, that's all. That's exactly what Diamond Black is, the only difference I can see is that Humacarb is mixed with water...

This PDF (link) states Humacarb is micronized coal, which means it's a powder. If it is in liquid form then it's merely a powder suspended in a liquid, but it still has very low solubility and very low plant bio-availability. Microbes need to process it first, thus humacarb will not offer anything near the immediate affects that humic acid liquid will offer.


This is quote from that PDF from the company:

Micronization:

Unlike liquid synthetic humates that are chemically extracted fractions of organic matter, HumaCarb contains all of the original complex carbons that are found in the natural material from which it is derived. The process of grinding a material down to fine particles where it is about the thickness of a human hair (about 6 microns thick) is called micronization. HumaCarb is micronized so it can be suspended in water for use in liquid applications while providing all of the complex components of the original natural material.

Benefits:

The benefits of soil humus are well known. Humic substances are primarily responsible for the benefits normally attributed to humus. Some of the benefits include efficient nitrogen utilization, better nutrient uptake from soil to plant, increased nutrient density, pest and disease resistance, micronutrient utilization and plant growth stimulation. Most, if not all, of these benefits are the result of increased biological activity, not necessarily directly from the application of humic substance.

Humic Substances:

Microorganisms will eventually change natural organic matter into highly stable complex forms of carbon called humic substances. The process is called humification, and it occurs naturally in soils, compost piles, and where coal deposits have been exposed to long-term biological weathering. HumaCarb is an unadulterated form of highly weathered coal.

Humic acid products are called such due to the acid radical from the humic matter, that is what makes it humic acid (not pH as may people think), otherwise it's not humic acid, it is humus. Humates are the salts of humic acid you seem to be referring to, see this good post by CC about definitions: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3936718&postcount=76

Yankee wrote:

HumaCarb outperforms HA liquids. You can even use HC in certain hydroponic applications...lol.

Maybe according to the manufacture, but not according to chemical/colloidal science AFAIK. You can use HC in hydro due to the fact it's micronized coal powder suspended in water, thus it shouldn't clog anything, but it's still not nearly as soluble or plant available as is humic acid liquid (extract of lignite); unless the company is lying about something. Micronized means reduced in particle size to a few microns and is a powder, not liquid.

 

[spurr]

"Most studies looking at usage rates of ewc find from 10-20% is ideal, over 20% isn't needed and has been found to offer no additional benefit."

Running my own experiments with EWC this statement seems to describe what percentages seem ideal in my mix. I never measure anymore,but I keep a sort of mental picture of overall mass involving what goes/and is in my soil. It's not quite 1/4 EWC in the mix..

Hola,

Yup that sounds right. I use ewc slurry during growth if I want to add additional organic substances and nutrients from ewc to media.

 

[Yankee Grower]

"Most studies looking at usage rates of ewc find from 10-20% is ideal, over 20% isn't needed and has been found to offer no additional benefit."

I did not say there's additional benefit but that you can run up to 40%.

 

[Yankee Grower]

unless the company is lying about something. Micronized means reduced in particle size to a few microns and is a powder, not liquid.

The company is not lying, the dude is Amish and cannot lie...lol. Part of it may be semantics, wording, etc. No deception going on.

Micronized simply means that...micronized and about particle size and nothing to do with whether in a powder form or not. You can buy micronized calcium carbonate liquids, for use in things like paints/printing I believe, but cannot remember the company offhand but got my samples out of France

As for the general HA/FA stuff, including HC, go to a different thread and let me know where you end up.

 

[guest2012y]

I did not say there's additional benefit but that you can run up to 40% without problems.

Sorry..I didn't do the little green quote box...that's spur's statement...I'm just acknowledging this percentage seems to work well for me. I haven't yet reached a 40% ratio....I would imagine things would be just fine though if I did.

 

[spurr]

The company is not lying, the dude is Amish and cannot lie...lol. Part of it may be semantics, wording, etc. No deception going on.

I was only joking because of what you stated the company claimed. Which if true can't be correct, re: immediate benefit from humacarb on par with immediate benefit from humic acid liquid. The PDF I posted shows the company dones't claim immediate benefit from Humacarb and that it first needs to be broken down by microbes to have more worthwhile effect for plants.

Micronized simply means that...micronized and about particle size and nothing to do with whether in a powder form or not. You can buy micronized calcium carbonate liquids, for use in things like paints/printing I believe, but cannot remember the company offhand but got my samples out of France

For something to be micronized is it has to be a powder, that is the effect of the process of micronization of rocks like coal, or soft rock phosphate, or calcium carbonate, etc, et al.

The large particles of rock (for example) get ground into little particles of rock, i.e. into powder. And if the powder particles are a few microns in size it is micronized. If powder particles are, for example, 20 microns in size it is not micronized.

If you buy micronzied cal-carbonate as a liquid it's just that, calcium carbonate (a solid mineral) that has been micronzied (ground) into a power and mixed with water (or paint, or whatever). You are simply paying for liquid suspension of the powder in terms of cost and shipping.

You can order micronized cal-carbonate powder online, ex. from Amazon or ebay or most mushroom companies (because Cal-carb is used to adjust pH in casing layers for growing mushrooms). Once you have the micronzied cal-carb powder you can simply mix it into water, or paint, or whatever, yourself at home, saving money.

As for the general HA/FA stuff, including HC, go to a different thread and let me know where you end up.

No need, it's already been fully explained by myself and CC and the links we posted. Did you read the e-booklet I posted?

In terms of Humacarb, it's merely powdered (micronzied) coal (probably lignite) mixed with water, that's it. You might as well go by some GH Diamond Black (except it's not micronized, it's granular leonardite) and mix it with water. In fact, Diamond Black is better than Humacarb because HC is coal and Diamond Black is leonardite. What makes HC better for microbes is that it's micronized and Diamond Black is simply grandeur.

Micronized powder has much greater surface area that allows microbes to break it down (i.e. process of mineralization) faster than granular. This is why using micronized rock powders for media is better than prilled or granular.

 

[Chronic Future]

OK, I have seen several threads regarding this topic, and I would
like to put everything into perspective for no0bz and those who
claim flushing organic mediums, mainly soil, is absolutely
unnecessary. This is very much dependent on the grower's
experience using organics.

​

FLUSHING ORGANIC SOIL IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY,
UNLESS YOU ARE AN ORGANIC SOIL GROWING AFICIONADO.​

​

FOR THE RECORD -

IF THERE ARE WATER SOLUBLE NUTRIENTS AVAILABLE IN THE
SOIL, YOUR PLANT WILL CONTINUE TO USE THEM, REGARDLESS IF
THE SOIL IS FERTILIZED ORGANICALLY OR CHEMICALLY. THIS
MEANS YOU SHOULD FLUSH YOUR SOIL UNLESS YOU HAVE THE
ORGANIC BREAKDOWN TIMED PERFECTLY SO THAT THE WATER
SOLUBLE NUTRIENTS ARE NOT AVAILABLE IN DETRIMENTAL
AMMOUNTS IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OF FLOWERING...SO WHY
NOT FLUSH IT JUST TO BE SAFE? HOW OFTEN TO FLUSH IS THE
MAIN QUESTION, AND THAT IS DEPENDENT ON THE AVAILABILITY
OF YOUR NUTRIENTS.



BLOOD+BONE vs GUANOS vs BOTTLED ORGANIC NUTRIENTS (Pure Blend Pro, etc)

If you are using blood+bone, or any other slowly available organic
nutrients that are dependent on microbes to make them water
soluble, the chances of having nutrient build-up in the bud are
lower compared to guanos, and much lower than bottled organic
nutrients.

Guanos are typically somewhat soluble in water right out of the
bag, without microbes acting on them. That means for a certain
percentage of your guano used, you don't even need the
microherd to do anything for the plant to eat it. Once microbes
start working on the water insoluble guano that is trapped in the
soil, it quickly becomes soluble, via MICROBE FECES AND CHEMICAL
DECOMPOSITION....and it is available to the plant to eat.

BOTTLED NUTRIENTS ARE ALMOST ALWAYS 100% WATER
SOLUBLE. That means, whether they are organic or chemical, they
are instantly available to the plant, without microbes breaking
them down first. You do not need a microherd to utilize bottled
ORGANIC nutrients!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BREAKING THINGS DOWN..... ​

BLOOD+BONE, and other slow release organics - No, you can't
physically flush out blood+bone, etc, BUT you can flush out the
nutrient residues that the microbes are making from them. There
may not be much water soluble residue, but there is some, or else
you are out of food or the microherd is dead, in which case there
is really no need to flush, correct?

GUANOS - Guanos are much more likely to leave usable amounts
of water soluble residues than blood+bone, because they break
down much quicker, on top of the fact that they are somewhat
soluble out of the bag. While you may not be able to flush out the
guano itself, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FLUSH THE WATER SOLUBLE
RESIDUES FROM THE GUANO - You just need to do it more often
before harvest than you would for blood and bone, because the
guano is trapped in there, and it will be breaking down via
microbes and chemical decomposition very quickly. If you flush and
there is water insoluble guano left, it will become soluble in a week
or so after the microbes break more of it down, and then it needs
to be flushed again!!!

BOTTLED NUTRIENTS - ORGANIC OR NOT - Bottled nutrients are
basically all the same in regards to availability. They are for the
most part 100% water soluble from day one, NO MICROBES
NEEDED. That means you CAN flush ORGANIC bottled nutrients at
any time. They are water soluble, and they will wash right
out...and if you don't wash them out, your plants will continue to
eat them until you cut them, and then you get all those nutrients
in your smoke.

CONTAINER ORGANICS DO NEED FLUSHED, REGARDLESS OF WHAT
YOU ARE USING FOR YOUR NUTRIENTS. THE AMOUNT OF FLUSHING
REQUIRED IS DEPENDENT ON THE TYPE OF ORGANIC NUTRIENTS
YOU ARE USING, AND HOW MUCH OVER FERTILIZING YOU HAVE
DONE.

AS I SAID - ORGANIC AFICIONADOS NEED NOT WORRY, BECAUSE
IF YOU HAVE THE FEEDING SCHEDULE DIALED IN, THERE WILL BE
VERY SMALL AMOUNTS OF WATER SOLUBLE NUTRIENTS LEFT
OVER DURING THE END OF FLOWER.

FLUSHING ORGANICS... ​

BLOOD+BONE, and other slow release organics- Typically,
light flushing will do, because they release slowly, and you will
most likely harvest the crop before they break down enough to be
detrimental...all dependent of course on how much was used
initially...if you went nuts, you may need to flush more frequently
to get rid of the solubles and keep the newly produced (via
microbes and chemical decomposition) solubles from getting used.

GUANOS - Depending on how much you have dumped into your
soil, CONSTANT flushing may be required until harvest, because it
will continue to break down very quickly. You will be able to rinse
out most of what is available by rinsing the container thoroughly,
but in another week, that remaining insoluble guano will have
broken down the point of solubility that it was at before.

BOTTLED ORGANIC NUTRIENTS - Once you flush them out, they
are gone, down the drain. That's it. Just like bottled chemical
nutrients. They are 100% soluble, and you do need to flush
them...and it is very easy because they are 100% soluble.

So, there you have it... Whether you need to flush your organic
medium or not is fully dependent on the amount of water soluble
nutrients available in the last 2 weeks of flowering. That's all there
is to it.

As you are learning organics, you will get better with your feeding
schedule if you pay attention to things, and the need for flushing
will decrease.

good post tyrone420 there are alot of people who flush organics or just feed water in the last two weeks soma's one of them I'd take his advice over these I dont flush guys peace.

 

[guest2012y]

Flushing organic soil is like building a step ladder to the moon and thinking it's going to work...a pointless practice.

Hey Cronic Future..how do you "just feed with water"? Just curious.

 

[Yankee Grower]

re: immediate benefit from humacarb on par with immediate benefit from humic acid liquid.

I don't believe I said that.

For something to be micronized is it has to be a powder

You sure about that?

In terms of Humacarb, it's merely powdered (micronzied) coal (probably lignite) mixed with water, that's it. You might as well go by some GH Diamond Black (except it's not micronized, it's granular leonardite) and mix it with water. In fact, Diamond Black is better than Humacarb because HC is coal and Diamond Black is leonardite. What makes HC better for microbes is that it's micronized and Diamond Black is simply grandeur.

For starters I've basically only said that it works better than humic acid extract products...which it does...but will say that I don't believe it was tested against every humic extract. In general it outperforms and not by a % but by x multiples. Not bad for coal dust and for sure it's not that.

The DB to HC comparison is a poor one for various reasons.

Leonardite is just the formal name for the deposit that Dr. Leonard discovered and researched and is nothing special. It's just lignite. That's my understanding but seems CC says leonardite is a distinct layer found in conjunction with lignite.

HC is not a complex product nor is it expensive...just effective.

 

[Yankee Grower]

Flushing organic soil is like building a step ladder to the moon and thinking it's going to work...a pointless practice.

Was it you that also mentioned flushing tomatoes? I like to use that analogy often...lol.

Trinity Gold mentioned something that caught my eye. He does a lot of sap testing and basically feeds the plants what they want and does not like to starve them when they're asking for something which includes towards the end of their life cycle and thought that was a great way of putting it especially considering he's monitoring the plant's 'blood'.

 

[Chronic Future]

Flushing organic soil is like building a step ladder to the moon and thinking it's going to work...a pointless practice.

Hey Cronic Future..how do you "just feed with water"? Just curious.

you know what I mean dude I see why you turned you karma off your a karma disaster lol
you guys crack me up just cuz you do somthing one way you want everyone to do it your way what are you some kind of control freak ?Guess who just jumped on my ignore list

 

[Yankee Grower]

you guys crack me up just cuz you do somthing one way you want everyone to do it your way what are you some kind of control freak ?

I don't get that that's it at all. If you look at the OP you see...

FLUSHING ORGANIC SOIL IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, UNLESS YOU ARE AN ORGANIC SOIL GROWING AFICIONADO.

So he's trying to get everyone to do it his way...and guess Soma says necessary/important/critical also according to you. That statement I quoted is simply not true...wish I could compost it...lol. As for the 'aficionado' thing...also not true IMO, like you need to be some kind of agriculture expert to grow organically. Peeps make organics complicated when it's really simple.

Again from the OP...

CONTAINER ORGANICS DO NEED FLUSHED, REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU ARE USING FOR YOUR NUTRIENTS.

LOL

I could care less what people do and how they grow. If you wanna flush, and feel it necessary, go for it.

 

[Microbeman]

Flushing is essential Captain & Yankee G! What are you talking about? I would be making a longer post but I need to rush off and flush my flowering alfalfa field before it becomes destroyed by sucking up too many of the nutrients from all that organic fertilizer I applied this year.

 

[Yankee Grower]

It's good to read the NOP rules on FA, so maybe if one used citric acid to drop pH they could source FA that doesn't violate NOP rules

IMO it's good stuff if it's properly extracted and neutralized.

It's more about the sourcing, extraction process and neutralization

If pH is at or over 10 then it's no good due to excessive caustic soda, even humic acid with a pH of 9 has more caustic soda than I am comfortable with (somewhere in the range of 0.004% or 0.0004%).

When a company uses the typical alkali/acid extraction process it's a fail regardless of if they do the neutralization 'properly' or not or how much caustic soda they use. Humic/fulvic molecules are highly sensitive to pH changes. The use of any caustic soda or acid is the wrong way to go IMO. That's one of the reasons I'm a big fan of BioAg's slow cold bacterial fermented fulvic product and also their humic product which is not done via ferment or alkalic/acid extraction.

Humates are the salts of humic acid you seem to be referring to

No...when you are using potassium or sodium hydroxide in the extraction process is where I'm talking about salts.

Sticking either leonarite or Leonardite in a bottle of water does not make for a viable humic acid product - i.e. General Hydroponics Black Diamond.

I generally agree.

 

[spurr]

When a company uses the typical alkali/acid extraction process it's a fail regardless of if they do the neutralization 'properly' or not or how much caustic soda they use. Humic/fulvic molecules are highly sensitive to pH changes.

The use of any caustic soda or acid is the wrong way to go IMO. That's one of the reasons I'm a big fan of BioAg's slow cold bacterial fermented fulvic product and also their humic product which is not done via ferment or alkalic/acid extraction.

If they are fermenting fulvic acid, which I would be interested in hearing about, they probably using humic acid to do so, or maybe micronized lignite, etc. I am assuming they use caustic soda (or some other alkali) to extract the humic acid in the first place. And if I am correct that they ferment (e.g. drop pH below 3 with anaerobic bacteria) a solution with humic acid to extract fulvic acid you are only one step away from caustic soda extraction of the humic acid...

Extraction of humic acid ('substances' I guess for plural) from lignite, Leonardite or peat uses casutic soda most of the time, then neutziled to remove c.soda, that is why pH of 8 or less is the best bet for ready-to-use humic acid liquid. I think the reason alkali is used is becue pH of 3 and less makes humic acid insoluble, so it would not work for an extraction of soluble humic acid. This is also why humic acid liquid needs to stay at least weakly acidic, and at most weakly basic.

 

[spurr]

On the topic of flushing cations from CEC:

The pH of the water used to flush has a large effect upon releasing cations from CEC sites, hydrogen ions (H+) are able to dissociate cations from CEC sites, allowing them to the be more easily flushed away. So if one was to use phosphoric acid (pH down) or probably citric acid in water lowering pH we will be increasing flush CEC sites.

I am not suggesting we run out and do this, but it is one method roots and microbes are able to release cations from CEC. Roots release not only acidic protons (H+ ions) as exudates, ex. when taking in ammoniacal N, but they also create carbonic acid (Co2+water) in media that releases H+ ions, etc. Microbes through their daily processes release/create some H+ ions too. Thus we are inadvertently allowing those damn roots and microbes to flush our media CEC sites all the time!