FLUSHING ORGANICS - Blood+bone vs Guanos vs Bottled Organic Nutrients

[spurr]

here is a good, simple link on CEC (Cation exchange capacity)
this is why leaching/flushing is pretty pointless in good quality soil with plenty of organic matter and humus (clay also performs the same function)

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

That is a good read for sure, did you see that I uploaded the full and most current version of that e-book to the 'reading list' thread?



I agree about CEC, if the bulk destiny of media is above ~ 0.25 g/cm^3 to above 0.5 g/cm^3. However, if people use only coco (~ 0.10 g/cm^3) or only peat (~ 0.15 g/cm^3) than the bulk density will be low and thus the CEC won't 'do it's job'. For reference, bulk density of good soil is ~0.5-1.25 g/cm^3; once bulk density exceeds 1.6 g/cm^3 root can not penetrate soil well.

Considering most people here add organic matter (OM) with high bulk destiny to peat or coco they are increasing the "effective CEC", that CEC which is useful. To increase bulk density of peat we can add OM with high bulk density or we can intentionally compress the media (but compressing isn't a good idea). Also, compost is very high in CEC (from the humus and clay often found in compost) so compost helps in two ways: (1) it increases CEC and (2) it increases bulk density. I add zeolite to my media to also increase CEC because zeolite has some of the highest CEC one can provide; the other being humus.

Using good humus rich vermicompost is a good option in place of compost to increase bulk density and CEC at the same time.

Here is something on this topic I wrote yesterday:

CEC is really only a concern in media with high bulk density, and in media like coco or peat CEC is a non-issue. [This relates to the quote/paper posted below by Agro and Fisher.] If one was to increase the bulk density of coco or s.peat (via. heavy compaction or adding dense organic matter like compost) then the CEC would not be a non-issue.

The cations held in CEC sites can be freed via. acidic exudates from roots (like H+ protons) and microbes, it can also be freed from interaction with other cations, and pH of soil solution.

The soil solution generally hold cations in equilibrium to cations held in CEC sites (usually once most CEC sites are filled).

Lots of people and companies that sell coco make claims about how great the CEC is, and how CEC of coco affects Ca availability to roots, neither of those claims are true to the degree the claims makers attest [again, see the paper below by Agro and Fisher]. S.peat has greater CEC than coco and peat doesn't have issues with Ca availability to roots...

If there really is an issue with Ca availability to roots in coco (which I have never noticed) than the issue is not due to CEC, it could be due to poorly flushed coco holding higher levels of P, K and S ions, which could affect availability of Ca ions. I for one do not believe there is a Ca 'issue' with coco.

The whole topic of CEC and AEC is misunderstood by companies selling products (like coco) that are thought of to have high CEC. For example, CEC of most humus/clay rich soil is around 5-20+ meq/100g, and coco has CEC around 40-60+ meq/100g and s.peat has CEC around 60-80+ meq/100g. Of all those media, it's only the soil that a grower needs to be concerned about in terms of CEC. Or coco or s.peat with intentionally increased bulk density.

The CEC of coco is not only lower than s.peat, but the bulk density of coco is less than s.peat too! Thus, the CEC of coco is a non-issue, and any company who claims otherwise needs to study up...

For quick reference:

Bulk destiny:

• soil = ~0.5-1.5 g/cm^3
• s.peat = ~ 0.15 g/cm^3
• coco = ~0.10 g/cm^3

CEC

• soil (humus/clay rich) = ~5-20+ meq/100g
• s.peat = ~60-80+ meq/100g
• coco = ~40-60+ meq/100g

Some good references to go along the good one you posted:

1. Here is a good read about why CEC in media with low bulk density does not do what CEC in soil (high bulk density) does. Soil has the lowest CEC but most "effective CEC" out of the total CEC. This is probably the most relevant reference considering most studies and writings about CEC are about soil, which has high bulk density, not about s.peat or coco that we most often use as a base for our media.

"Understanding Plant Nutrition: Nutrient Sources: Media Cation Exchange Capacity"
By Bill Argo and Paul Fisher, February 2008
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47

(coir/perlite media tested amonthst others)

Research has shown that the CEC of soilless media has little effect on resisting change in pH, or in supplying nutrients to the crop. Several experiments were completed at Michigan State University that tested the effect of CEC on long-term pH and nutrition management using impatiens as the test crop. The media tested ranged in buffering capacity from one considered very low (5 meq/liter, a 70 percent rockwool and 30 percent perlite mix) to one that would be considered highly buffered (76 meq/liter, a mix of 70 percent highly degraded consumer grade sphagnum peat and 30 percent perlite).

When shoot-tissue calcium was tested after four, eight, 12 or 17 weeks of growth, there was little difference between plants grown in the media with low CEC (rockwool perlite) or relatively high CEC (consumer grade peat/perlite). The media-CEC therefore did not act as a buffer to nutrient levels available for plant uptake.

2. "Soil Bulk Density - Physical Properties"
(University of Missouri)
http://soils.missouri.edu/tutorial/page10.asp


3. "Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC)"
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/articles/cec_bph_and_percent_sat

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Fulvic Acids

Fulvic Acids

Under the USDA's N.O.P. (National Organic Program), a fulvic acid is described as fractions of humates soluble at neutral to acid pH. They may be extracted from allowed humates by use of hydrolysis or naturally occurring acids. (NOP Rule 205.203(d)(2))

HTH

CC

 

[spurr]

and of course many of the nutes are held in the life cycle of microbes and cant be leached either.

Great point

 

[spurr]

Under the USDA's N.O.P. (National Organic Program), a fulvic acid is described as fractions of humates soluble at neutral to acid pH. They may be extracted from allowed humates by use of hydrolysis or naturally occurring acids. (NOP Rule 205.203(d)(2))

HTH

CC

Thanks, that does help. It shows what I thought, that if one was to lower pH of humic acid liquid to 3 or below, after the HA precipitates out some FA should still be left in suspension (soluble).

It's good to read the NOP rules on FA, so maybe if one used citric acid to drop pH they could source FA that doesn't violate NOP rules. NOP allows use of another acid but I can't recall it's name right now.

 

[spurr]

Here's some research on Properties Of Humic Substances

This link shows the range of colors of fulvic acid (light yellow) through humic (dark brown and light gray) and humin (black).

It also has drawings of the fulvic acid molecules as well as humic acid molecules - quite a huge difference is size and structure which is one reason for the suggestion of applying fulvic acid as a foliar application may be the better method.

CC

Good references, thanks, I will read them over today.

There are reasons to apply both as folair. For FA it has been shown to increase chlorophyll and as you mentioned, it's size is much smaller so it can pass leaf barriers (cuticle layer and cell membrane more easily). I always add HA to my foliar because HA slows evaporation of the water droplets from the leaf, thus HA allows the leaf to stay wetter longer, which increases absorption of ions and organic substances from the liquid into the leaf.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

It's good to read the NOP rules on FA, so maybe if one used citric acid to drop pH they could source FA that doesn't violate NOP rules. NOP allows use of another acid but I can't recall it's name right now.

BioAg.com

I believe it was Yankee Grower that is also familiar with their fulvic and humic acid products.

An interesting side note is that the big source in New Mexico (Mesa Verde product) and BioAg source their humic acid source that were created in the Fruitwood Era and are NOT derived from lignite or worse - coal like much of the products coming out of India and China.

This area of agricultural amendments is filled with ass-clowns, thieves, dimwits - much like the grow store industry.

CC

 

[spurr]

RE: Fulvic acid:

FWIW, I usually source FA powder from http://super-grow.biz/FulvicAcid.jsp in Canada.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

International Humic Substances Society

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Northeastern University Humic Acid Research Group

 

[spurr]

Spurr wrote:
It's good to read the NOP rules on FA, so maybe if one used citric acid to drop pH they could source FA that doesn't violate NOP rules. NOP allows use of another acid but I can't recall it's name right now.

BioAg.com

I am not sure what you mean by posting the link. Does bioag list the acid NOP allows for extraction of FA?

I believe it was Yankee Grower that is also familiar with their fulvic and humic acid products.

An interesting side note is that the big source in New Mexico (Mesa Verde product) and BioAg source their humic acid source that were created in the Fruitwood Era and are NOT derived from lignite or worse - coal like much of the products coming out of India and China.

Why do you dislike HA from lignite? IMO it's good stuff if it's properly extracted and neutralized. A lot of HA from the US is sourced from lignite/[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Leonardite shale[/FONT], carbonized peat is also a source for some suppliers of HA.

What is the pH of bioag humic acid liquid?


FWIW:

(the bold text is by the original author)
http://foliarfert.com/pages/humicacid.htm

Humic Acid comes entirely from vegetation which was laid down in the Carboniferous Period . Millions of years ago, earth's mineral-rich soils produced a profusion of lush green forests, succulent fruits and vegetables.

As this lush growth of vegetation died, it accumulated and later, was buried by rock and mudflows and deposits of sand and silt. The weight of these deposits compacted and compressed out all of the moisture.

Over the ages, the vegetation underwent compaction and heating. It slowly carbonized and became coal.

This compaction squeezed out the organic acids and esters present in the vegetation and formed a pool on top of the lignite coal bed. This pool dried and aged and eventually formed Leonardite shale. What remains today is a deposit of dried, prehistoric plant derivatives.

During this process simple products of decomposition: amino acids, carbohydrates and phenols, turn into very complex products - Humic Acids.

...

Quality:
Not all the products on the market under the name Humates are of a high quality.

There are several different chemical structures of Humic Acid. The more concentrated forms are the best and in the long run, and can be the cheapest.

The first, is fossilized brown oxidized lignite or Leonardite. This product has 30- 40% humic acid content, 30-40% of mineral part -ash, and the balance is presented by unknown ballast substances. Recommended application norms of these products are very high, because humic acids in them are insoluble and are not in an active form. Mineral content of these products have metals which bind to humic acids. Long time usage of these products pollutes the soil.

The second group is produced in the common method of treatment of lignites with concentrated alkalines. The content of Humic acids of these products is within the level of 20-30%. Humates here are in active form, but they still have a high content of ballast and ash, which causes above mentioned problems.

The third group of Humates is produced in the way of treatment of brown lignite or Leonardite with alkaline solutions. These Humates are high quality products, because they are free from ballast, but they are very expensive and difficult to transport and handle. Moreover the production process leaves a lot of waste.

The fourth group are Humates produced from a high quality tested lignites, with 70% humic acid content, 12% mineral ash part and 18% organic ballast. These soluble products are in powder form with 75-85% of Humic acids.

Only two products meet those requirements; these come from East Siberia, Russia and N.W. New Mexico; these are freshwater deposits and have the highest percentage of low molecular weight humic acids, generally referred to as Fulvic acids.

Only two products meet those requirements; these come from East Siberia, Russia and N.W. New Mexico; these are freshwater deposits and have the highest percentage of low molecular weight humic acids, generally referred to as Fulvic acids.

Fulvic acid is the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali, acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.
Fulvates are the salts of fulvic acid.

Both fulvic and humic acids found in soil, result from the chemical and biological degradation of dead organisms. Fulvic acids provide multiple and natural chemical reactions in the soil, instigating positive influences on the plants' metabolic processes.
Fulvic acidis especially active in dissolving minerals and metals when in solution with water. The metallic minerals simply dissolve into ionic form, and disappear into the fulvic structure becoming bio-chemically reactive and mobile. The Fulvic acid actually transforms these minerals and metal into elaborate fulvic acid molecular complexes that have vastly different characteristics from their previous metallic mineral form. Fulvic acid is nature's way of "chelating" metallic minerals, turning them into readily absorbable bio-available forms.

Fulvic acid readily complexes with minerals and metals making them available to plant roots and easily absorbable through cell walls. It makes the actual movement of metal ions that are normally difficult to mobilize or transport. such as iron, easily transportable through plant structures.

It allows minerals to inter-act with one another, breaking them down into the simplest ionic forms, chelated by the fulvic acid electrolyte. Fulvic acid is a natural organic electrolyte.

An electrolyte is a substance that is soluble in water or other appropriate medium that is capable of conducting electrical current. Fulvic acid has proven to be a powerful organic electrolyte.

Fulvic acids also dissolve and transpose vitamins, coenzymes, auxins, hormones and natural antibiotics that are generally found throughout the soil, making them available. These substances are effective in stimulating even more vigorous and healthy growth proceeding certain bacteria, fungi, and actinomyceles in decomposing vegetation in the soil.

​

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Why do you dislike HA from lignite? IMO it's great stuff if it's properly extracted and neutralized. A lot of HA from the US is sourced from lignite/[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Leonardite shale[/FONT], carbonized peat is also a source for some suppliers of HA.

spurr

The lack of standardized testing is the real problem here. What the shippers and packers of 'leonarite' vs 'Leonardite' never reveal is the level of biological activity in their sources - and for good reason.

With that, I'll leave this discussion because the topic of humic & fulvic acid is as contentious as the subject of mycorrhizal inoculation in container plants. Once you get away from the claims by the manufacturers (even Mycorrhizal Applications) and into the real world of commercial horticulture growing, many of these claims fall flat on their face but will for an eternity remain a factoid in the cannabis growing realm of things.

As is usually the case.

Bottom line is to know the source of the humic acid product you are interested in using and testing. Sticking either leonarite or Leonardite in a bottle of water does not make for a viable humic acid product - i.e. General Hydroponics Black Diamond.

CC

 

[spurr]

Hey,

Yea I agree with what you wrote 100%, I just thought you were stating all HA from lignite/Leonardite shale was of poor quality and not bio-available. It's more about the sourcing, extraction process and neutralization which makes it bio-available and not insoluble. Just using leonarite or Leonardite powder is a fail for a few reasons, I agree.

Did you see what I edited in my post above? A pretty good write up about various qualities of HA, it's not from a University, but the info is sound from my understanding. I for one would not use HA if I didn't source it from TeraVita or from BioAg.

I use low pH humic acid called "TVH" that has pH of 5.5-6 with ~8% HA and is very similar to stable soil humus; it's the best HA i have found to date, but granted, I have not tried nor researched bioag very well; I would use them from you recommendation you have provided in the past.


RE: FA and HA acting as chelation agents:

I am pretty sure HA is good at chelating P and miconutrients while FA is good at chelating most ions, not only P and micronutrients.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

spurr

DISCLAIMER: I am and have been a long, long time user of BioAg products. Not only for gardening but Mrs. Coot and I take both humic and fulvic acids (food-grade) on a daily basis. My Yellow Lab who suffers from arthritis and also takes thyroid medication also receives a daily dose of these acids. We also take the organic, food-grade seaweed extract from ASL.

On the subject of chelation I'll be the first to tell you that I don't know diddly-squat that you and others know from the posts of yours that I read. 'Better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it' as the old expression goes.

But here's what I can tell you - in a conversation with Ryan Zadow @ BioAg a couple of months back when I was placing an order, the subject came up about using alumina-sillicate rock dusts (Azomite, Bentonite, et al) vs. glacial rock dusts. I was looking for input to have a mineral combination both mixed and prilled.

The subject of using liquid silica was mentioned by me because from what I've read, it too has some chelating properties. It was from that conversation that fulvic acid came up for its chelating properties.

Here is a cite from their writings:

"The best humate is one that is high in biological activity, fulvic/humic acids, silicic acids and also high in oxygen in the phenolic and quinoid groups. Humic acids function best in the low weight fraction (fulvic) on the cellular level. Molecular weight is very important with the high oxygen types usually falling into the low weight (smaller sized molecules) category and thus more biologically active since only low weight molecules are utilized by beneficial organisims, enter cell membranes more efficiently, create greater permeability for the flow of nutrition into the cell and adsorption of excess heavy metals for removal from the cell. In agriculture, stimulation of each cell produces more energy from the plant and higher yield. The process starts with soil microbes, then plant root cells and eventually the entire plant. We can also do this by foliar spraying soluble fulvic acids and adding a humic solution to the soil at planting. Cellular stimulation at all levels is how it works."

One other note - Dr. B.'s articles that you linked to are a solid read. He and the founder of BioAg were at one time research partners and maybe even business partners. Dr. B went on to found TeraVita and Dr. Faust founded BioAg

Mesa Verde, TeraVita & BioAg are at the top in this area. Any of their writings can and should be taken seriously by students and other researchers. Many years for all 3 gentleman.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Definitions

Definitions

spurr

See if this set of definitions works:

Terminology of Humus-related Materials

Humus - product resulting from decay of organic matter. Contains both humic and non-humic material.

Humin - the alkali-insoluble fraction of leonardite.

Humic substances - (plural) the collective name for the acid radicals found in humic matter. Typically separated from humic matter by alkaline extraction.

Humic acid - (singular) the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali but insoluble in acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.

Humate - the salts of humic acids, collectively, or the salts of humic acid specifically. (The usage must be determined from the context.)

Fulvic acid - the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali, acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.

Fulvates - the salts of fulvic acid.

Leonardite - a soft brown coal-like deposit usually found in conjunction with deposits of lignite.

Lignite - a type of soft coal.

 

[VerdantGreen]

That is a good read for sure, did you see that I uploaded the full and most current version of that e-book to the 'reading list' thread?

spur, can you let me know which one it is - ive looked a couple times but cant find it (sorry for being a f*ckwit)

I agree about CEC, if the bulk destiny of media is above ~ 0.25 g/cm^3 to above 0.5 g/cm^3. However, if people use only coco (~ 0.10 g/cm^3) or only peat (~ 0.15 g/cm^3) than the bulk density will be low and thus the CEC won't 'do it's job'. For reference, bulk density of good soil is ~0.5-1.25 g/cm^3; once bulk density exceeds 1.6 g/cm^3 root can not penetrate soil well.

yeah my soil is pretty heavy as i use 20% topsoil, 10% ewc and 10% mushroom compost
i still havent had the balls to use some of the clay topsoil from my garden but one day maybe

VG

 

[spurr]

spurr

See if this set of definitions works:

Terminology of Humus-related Materials

Humus - product resulting from decay of organic matter. Contains both humic and non-humic material.

Humin - the alkali-insoluble fraction of leonardite.

Humic substances - (plural) the collective name for the acid radicals found in humic matter. Typically separated from humic matter by alkaline extraction.

Humic acid - (singular) the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali but insoluble in acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.

Humate - the salts of humic acids, collectively, or the salts of humic acid specifically. (The usage must be determined from the context.)

Fulvic acid - the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali, acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.

Fulvates - the salts of fulvic acid.

Leonardite - a soft brown coal-like deposit usually found in conjunction with deposits of lignite.

Lignite - a type of soft coal.

Yea that looks correct, nice list. And about humic acid liquid (which should probally be called humic substances liquid following your post), it's not usually acidic (pH), it's usually neutral or basic. Like your definition states, the word "acid" is not in reference to pH. That fact confuses a lot of people who think humic acid liquid (like can be bought in a hydro store) has acidic pH. Humic acid liquid can be alkaline, neutral or acidic, mostly it's alkaline; often pH of 8-9. If pH is at or over 10 then it's no good due to excessive caustic soda, even humic acid with a pH of 9 has more caustic soda than I am comfortable with (somewhere in the range of 0.004% or 0.0004%).

ideally humic acid liquid should have a pH of < 8 to > 5; a pH of 7 is a good humic acid product.

There are claims made by some companies that in media with pH below 6 or 7 the humic acid will precipitate and become insoluble, but that's not the case, pH needs to be about and less than 3 for the that to happen.

Oh yea, AFAIK, Leonardite is found on top of lignite.

 

[trichrider]

I am humbled by the accumulation of knowledge here...
thank you to clackamas coot, verdantgreen, and spurr.
http://extension.unh.edu/resources/r...489_Rep511.pdf
http://www.newenglandisa.org/FunkHan...ertilizers.pdf
http://www.teravita.com/Humates/HumateIntro.htm
http://www.teravita.com/Realities/Reality 4.htm
http://www.teravita.com/Technical ...ic Acids.htm
http://www.teravita.com/Technical ...ic acids.htm
http://www.groproorganics.com/images...mic Acid.pdf
http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_E...Simplified.htm
Properties Of Humic Substances
Soil Humic Substances
The Real Dirt on Humic Substances
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47
http://soils.missouri.edu/tutorial/page10.asp
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/...nd_percent_sat
International Humic Substances Society
Northeastern University Humic Acid Research Group
http://foliarfert.com/pages/humicacid.htm
alot of reading to castch up on!!! lol
K++
apologies for any appearance of deflecting or hijacking this thread.
Thanks to the op for leading me into this topic.

 

[spurr]

spur, can you let me know which one it is - ive looked a couple times but cant find it (sorry for being a f*ckwit)

Dude, you are faaaar from a twit

"The Ideal Soil: A handbook for new agriculture"
Micheal Astera and Agricola
(I can't comment on this e-book because I have not yet read it, but it comes well recommended to me; password to decrypt file: "more_info" [without quotes])
http://filesurf.ru/209371

yeah my soil is pretty heavy as i use 20% topsoil, 10% ewc and 10% mushroom compost
i still havent had the balls to use some of the clay topsoil from my garden but one day maybe

VG

Nice. There is problly no need to add the clay-loam as it mostly helps with CEC and you get that from the good humus-rich ewc and from peat and maybe mushroom compost depending upon how it was made. That siad, adding some clay-loam might be beneficial for the CEC...

 

[Yankee Grower]

Spurr - I think this whole area of humic/fulvic is still evolving. There is no accepted standardized test but there is a group in the US working on this headed by Lawrence Mayhew. There's a few older threads about this subject and maybe pick up the convo there cause we could spend pages in this thread talking about HA/FA.

In regards to organics and flushing...I still think that fulvic products are more of an issue than humic products regarding the potential for negatively affecting finished herb quality especially when used later in flowering.

Here's one decent link I came across and Dr. Faust even has an article in this compilation as does Lawrence Mayhew. Lots of stuff from China, who has been working with HA/FA since like the 70's, and about half the stuff is about human/animal research...but could be confusing things with what I ran across regarding Rare Earth Elements and mainly China...lol. Will see if I can dig that link up. Maybe Dr. Faust and Mayhew's articles are in the REE stuff...I've lost track.

http://www.enerex.ca/articles/fulvic_humic_acid.pdf

Honestly if you guys want to work with a humic 'product' in organic agriculture look no further than HumaCarb. Even with the spelling errors..."The Humin Fration"...there's more to this stuff than meets the eye and will work better than almost any 'humic' extract but maybe not necessarily better than Ful-Power in some ways. I think the two together would be a great combo. It's all about particle size regarding 'whole' humics but the material source also helps and yes the HC has been tested against numerous humic extracts in the field on a large scale but alas no research papers available Spurr...lol.

yeah my soil is pretty heavy as i use 20% topsoil, 10% ewc and 10% mushroom compost

With the 'right' mix you can use up to about 40% EWC.

 

[guest2012y]

"I am humbled by the accumulation of knowledge here..."

That's pretty much how I feel^^^^!!!

I usually just kick back and read,trying to store as much info. in my brain as possible,as much as contemplate the overall processes behind what makes sense to my simple "Organic Farmer Joe" way of gardening.