passive plant killer

[oldone]

NEED FLOAT VALVE PART # and fittings part #'s and stores to locate at...

Hi Dagger, I can help here, these guys are great. They have all kinds of fittings. I use their
FLTV-1/4BAA Float Valve 1/4” Hose Barb w/ Adjustable arm low pressure and a bunch of fittings.

Welcome to the wonderfully boring world of PPKs.
OO

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, daggerinmyback! welcome!

ok, lets do it!

you can get black plastic 3.5 gal buckets at www.usplastics.com if you do use these they make what they term a reusable lid. i strongly recommend these as they go on and off easily.

i'm currently thinking about using a second 3.5 on top instead of the 5 gal buckets. it would be a little more stable with a lower center of gravity.

you will also want to order 3/16" id black latex surgical type tubing. i could find it online at several places. google it. fishing and diving supplies.

don't buy that amber 1/4" id tube lowes sells. it won't seal without tape and allows algal growth which can and will clog your lines.

are you going to run a single room for everything? how many plants? how big do you want them? do you want to pulse feed also? looks like you have the pumps.

 

[*mistress*]

If I used square buckets I could easily stick my EC meter down the side of each container to make sure the EC isn't fluctuating between containers too much... but I would rather not have evaporation in my room.

evaporation occur anyway. water on top of media, in container & thru plant itself thru trans-evaporation... keep air flowing, keep just enough water that not waste any & planty have enough...

Don't you think that the amount of water you give your plants will depend on the environmental conditions? I'm trying to say that in my experience you can't tell how much water plants will take.

can have estimate of exactly how much water they use per day/wk, or entire season...
also, if only provide them w/ x-amount of water, they will also adapt to those conditions & thrive.

maybe link helpful...

Is there a standard water ratio for pot size on a drip system ?

maybe spikes @ certain moments during wks 4-7 fruiting.

Why not just give them a lower strength nute solution everyday?

final fruit = ~ same, +/-, so may be waste water & fert...maybe...

Basically just average out the nutes so the are the same everyday. This lets you give your plants the same nutes over their lifetime and avoids spikes in EC. Plants can drink easier with lower EC.

spikes desired...

@ certain points during season. maybe up to 3.5ec (2500ppm) from wk 4-7, maybe... ec meter not needed for that.

from 1 tsp - 1 tbsp/gal 5-1x-2x water soluble, or... use simple fnb (shake well)@ 1-3 tsp/gal... increase every 10 day...maybe feed cal separate

less=more, but @ peak fruit, peak ppm...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Dagger...

Three weeks away from your garden?

Crazy.

In a PPK set up?

Possible.

It looks like you're going to build out D9's current system.

You might have to link up... what... two hundred gallons for your bulk res?

If you link your RO filter to that (maybe figure out a way to have it kick in when 150 gallons are deplete?) you'll never run dry.

EDIT: CHECK OUT 'FLTVBHA1/4C' MIDWAY DOWN THE PAGE IN oo'S LINK.

If you have your spacing right, and are running vertical lights, you won't grow in the lamps.

PPKs are boring. For sure. And they might just work for you.

Will you post photos for us, or does basic self-preservation preclude such silliness?

I've tried to screw up the PPK every way possible. And I've failed.

Let's see if true hands-off neglect will run this system into the ground.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

hi, daggerinmyback! welcome!

ok, lets do it!

you can get black plastic 3.5 gal buckets at www.usplastics.com if you do use these they make what they term a reusable lid. i strongly recommend these as they go on and off easily.

i'm currently thinking about using a second 3.5 on top instead of the 5 gal buckets. it would be a little more stable with a lower center of gravity.

I'm not getting the black buckets logic...
400+ holes vs translucent buckets.. light is getting to the roots, no?

Am I missing something that wouldnt work by putting that 3.5 gallon bucket inside the 5 gallon bucket?
My measurements show it will work (post 914).. with an even lower center of gravity..

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

McDuck,

Maybe I'm crazy...

Holes in the bucket are intended to air prune root mass and take the ball out of the root-ball.

Black plastic is supposed to keep the root zone in the dark. I've seen roots grow in light without misadventure, but there are nasities that use light to live... um... what's the word... algae and other photosynthetic un-pleasantries that might benifit...

I'm not sure I want to like your nesting system, 'cause it so damn easy and obvious and I didn't think of it. But because it's so damn easy and obvious that in spite of myself, I do like it. Wouldn't you have to drill out both buckets at the same time if you wanted to do DIY air-pruning and then keep them as a nested team? Certainly not the end of the world...

 

[oldone]

I'm not sure I want to like your nesting system, 'cause it so damn easy and obvious and I didn't think of it. But because it's so damn easy and obvious that in spite of myself, I do like it. Wouldn't you have to drill out both buckets at the same time if you wanted to do DIY air-pruning and then keep them as a nested team? Certainly not the end of the world...

If I understand his concept both buckets would have to assembled then drilled carefully. It could be a nightmare to first drill then later line up the holes.

Or am I just as f'd up as usual?

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Well, if you're f'd up, then I'm f'd up, 'cause I think we're saying the same thing.

But judging you by me or me by you might be a little f'd up itself.

 

[delta9nxs]

good morning!

there once was a thread, on another site, done by someone who used a bucket with a hole in it.

now, this guy claimed to have invented the bucket with the hole in it, but everyone knew that he did not. the technique was used before his birth by someone else who still uses it today. even they do not claim to have invented it.

there were lots of arguments over intellectual property and so on.

also, this guy and his supporters viciously attacked anyone who suggested even the slightest change in "his" design.

well, this is a similar situation, except i know that i have not invented anything. every element involved in this design has been used separately by someone else in another iteration before i came along.

i will take credit for putting them all together in this form.

i also encourage progress and change. as far as i'm concerned this project will never be done.

anything any of us come up with that might simplify, improve, or customize to fit unusual areas is fine with me.

so, as i make remarks or offer suggestions please keep in mind that i am not rigid on any single point. i actively encourage change.

that's how we make progress.

ok, lets get on with building.

the first thing is the containers. you all have seen me go through several changes of containers over the year for different reasons.

while i'm still using the 5 gal bucket sitting on top of the 3.5 gal bucket i have mentioned changing the top bucket to a 3.5 gal also.
i'm going to go ahead and implement this. i'm positive i can grow the same size plant in one. especially with the pulse system in place.
by placing the top bucket on the lid of the bottom bucket i get to use the "air pruning" principle and still maintain a clean reservoir. total height with this option is 22".

however, i just placed a 3.5 gal inside of a 5 gal and got a total height of 17". i like that as i have had several containers just fall over from the weight being too high up and off center.

if you did this you would unify the weight of the water and the grow container into more of a one piece deal and make it much harder to upset. they nest and lock together well. you also would not need to buy lids.

you still have a 6" space under the grow container for the sump and solution.

this is ok but a little tight if you want more than about a 3.5-4" air gap. but doable.

if you were to run a 4" air gap you would only have a 2" water depth. i have found it difficult to mount and operate a float valve in 4" of water. but it can be done.

so, think about depth and adjustability.

the only real hang up i see here is that you will not be able to use the air pruning holes and still keep a nearly sterile reservoir.

the drilled out area in the top container will be inside the bottom container. i'm sure it will work at a reduced capacity just like this, but to really get the effect you would have to drill out the sidewall of the bottom container too.

i don't think the holes need to line up as OO suggests. and you won't need as many in the outside container as the inside container. really just a couple of good size holes should suffice.

the big drawback to this approach is that the whole idea of controlling evaporation goes out the window. you will get greatly increased evaporation and a dirty reservoir. by that i mean trash, bugs and so forth. algae.

this will work ok, you will just lose a little solution stability and do more maintenance. more nutrient changes.

i personally will keep using the bucket on bucket approach with a sealed reservoir and the air pruning holes, but if someone comes up with a viable alternative method of air pruning and maintaining a sealed reservoir i'll switch to the bucket in bucket.

about the black containers. i just like to keep everything light proof. it controls algae. algae will block your lines. i got no algae in the drilled out buckets except for the very top of the medium. none around the holes.

well, that's all folks!

 

[SCROG McDuck]

McDuck,

Maybe I'm crazy...

Holes in the bucket are intended to air prune root mass and take the ball out of the root-ball.

Black plastic is supposed to keep the root zone in the dark. I've seen roots grow in light without misadventure, but there are nasities that use light to live... um... what's the word... algae and other photosynthetic un-pleasantries that might benifit...

I'm not sure I want to like your nesting system, 'cause it so damn easy and obvious and I didn't think of it. But because it's so damn easy and obvious that in spite of myself, I do like it. Wouldn't you have to drill out both buckets at the same time if you wanted to do DIY air-pruning and then keep them as a nested team? Certainly not the end of the world...

The way I see it is: 3.5 gallon (drilled) nested inside the 5 gallon
bucket... small air pump direct into the rez under the water line..
will add some air to the rez and positivley pressurize the rez, forceing o2 into the drilled 3.5 gallon bucket.. tada!

Sorry d9, I'm not trying to reinvent the your idea..
it is simple and effective. I have a 'grow in a box' mentality and hight is always on my mind...,
21 vs 17 inches.. I didnt do
that comparison.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

will add some air to the rez and positivley pressurize the rez, forceing o2 into the drilled 3.5 gallon bucket.. tada!

McDuck...

Wow. I'm thinking air pruning. You're thinking O2 supplementation.

Very different animals.

I like it.

Okay. Now go build it. Lets see it run. I'm getting impatient.

Thought you were getting away from sound signatures though...

 

[SCROG McDuck]

McDuck...

Wow. I'm thinking air pruning. You're thinking O2 supplementation.

Very different animals.

I like it.

Okay. Now go build it. Lets see it run. I'm getting impatient.

Thought you were getting away from sound signatures though...

I have a month and a half before I can start 'rearanging'..
I have built the buckets (at least 1 prototype) .. and controll
bucket (3.5).. have al necessary hardware.... timeing.

growing in a box, DWC.. always worried about rez O2..
It cant be bad for them. The smallest WalMart pump is almost silent.

I'm most impressed with the Jacks Formulas provided by 'the creator'.. D9. HAHA!!
It is working very well in DWC... add backs vs EC/PPMs will create a bottleneck but it will widen as I go.

What do you mean: "Thought you were getting away from sound signatures though"
Can not relate!

a 2 inch air gap isnt big enough??

 

[jjfoo]

evaporation occur anyway. water on top of media, in container & thru plant itself thru trans-evaporation... keep air flowing, keep just enough water that not waste any & planty have enough...

If you have standing water in buckets exposed in a dry room with fans, you will lose much more water than you would if the containers where closed. This will make the room more humid and waste water and waste electricity getting the water out of the air. I want my water moving up the soil column. If I lose some at the top, that is ok, I need some gas exchange, but having water leave my system before it enters the soil is something I want to stop.

I have thought about having open buckets on the bottom so I could easily measure EC, but I'd rather not.

What is the advantage of having the buckets open in your system?

maybe spikes @ certain moments during wks 4-7 fruiting.



final fruit = ~ same, +/-, so may be waste water & fert...maybe...
spikes desired...

When you say spikes are desired, do you mean on a daily basis? Do you have any references for this claim that spikes are good? I've read mostly the opposite.

I'm not saying the EC shouldn't change through the life of the crop, I'm saying I don't want it go up and down from day to day as a give jut water one day then nutes the next. Seems like most commercial greenhouses have a concept of slowly steering the solution strength in their system.

I wouldn't call this a spike.

 

[delta9nxs]

The way I see it is: 3.5 gallon (drilled) nested inside the 5 gallon
bucket... small air pump direct into the rez under the water line..
will add some air to the rez and positivley pressurize the rez, forceing o2 into the drilled 3.5 gallon bucket.. tada!

Sorry d9, I'm not trying to reinvent the your idea..
it is simple and effective. I have a 'grow in a box' mentality and hight is always on my mind...,
21 vs 17 inches.. I didnt do
that comparison.

now there's an idea, mcduck! except in keeping with my philosophy on clean reservoirs i would put the air inlet through the sidewall of the lower bucket with the outlet above the waterline.

and put a silicone bead on the bottom side of the lower ring on the top bucket where the top bucket will come to rest on the lower bucket creating an air seal. this would force all air upward through the medium.

 

[delta9nxs]

I want my water moving up the soil column.

exactamente!

editing to add that this evaporation upward through the medium means continuous motion on a molecular level.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

now there's an idea, mcduck! except in keeping with my philosophy on clean reservoirs i would put the air inlet through the sidewall of the lower bucket with the outlet above the waterline.

and put a silicone bead on the bottom side of the lower ring on the top bucket where the top bucket will come to rest on the lower bucket creating an air seal. this would force all air upward through the medium.

I was thinking duct tape... or even splitting a piece of rubber hose that would fit over the top lip (around the 360 degrees) of the bottom bucket.. either would make easy work of removing the pot from the rez if necessary.

 

[jjfoo]

Does anyone here cap off there media wick tube and simply drill holes in it? I think this would be easier to maintain than a screen glued or tied to the bottom.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

McD:

What do you mean: "Thought you were getting away from sound signatures though"
Can not relate!

Maybe I've got some wires crossed. Thought we had talked about the idea of a quieter grow being a desirable thing... Maybe it's a mis-memory, or I'm attributing a conversation with someone else to you...

My air pumps were consistently the loudest part of my RDWC set-ups. They had a god-awful vibration that would go through walls and I had a hard time managing, even with foam, and hanging, and rubberized feet on platforms and everything else.

You have a quite pump. Sweet. Not a problem then. Look forward to the implementation!

A month and a half to build out, huh? Guess I'll just have to be patient.

@jjfoo I have heavy felt ziptied to my media wick. It was pretty quick and pretty easy. I haven't showed roots penetrating the bottom reservoir, but I didn't veg my plants as long as D9 does. I also don't have any media in my reservoir. Don't know if this is good or bad. But it is the extent of my experience.

 

[*mistress*]

If you have standing water in buckets exposed in a dry room with fans, you will lose much more water than you would if the containers where closed. This will make the room more humid and waste water and waste electricity getting the water out of the air. I want my water moving up the soil column. If I lose some at the top, that is ok, I need some gas exchange, but having water leave my system before it enters the soil is something I want to stop.

the water ok..
plants cool themselves by releasing water into the micro-climate around their leaves. if there is exposed water beneath plant, it rise into micro-climate, making plant expend less energy pushing out water.
.. either sealed, semi-sealed all seem require laminar & turbulent air flow in/around garden.

I have thought about having open buckets on the bottom so I could easily measure EC, but I'd rather not.

measuring ec not necessary. air flow is.
if check ec, maybe also check media ph, media ec, etc... testing never stop.

maybe ppk & other passive hidro developed for less check of this/that...

thread about ec, ppms, etc, etc... how to calculate w/out any meter, by just amount. may be helpful

calculating npk/nutrient profile

What is the advantage of having the buckets open in your system?

1. visual exactly how much water is used 24-48
2. cooling of ambient temps, aiding plant w/ moist micro-climate
3. constant lower water basin, which also re-poured
4. decreases water stress.

When you say spikes are desired, do you mean on a daily basis? Do you have any references for this claim that spikes are good? I've read mostly the opposite.

either/or... find what work for your fruit!

in part:
"solutions for that home-grown flavor
by dr. l. morgan

manipulating hydroponic solutions
conductivity or ec
(concentration) levels

the concentration (ec or cf) of the hydroponic nutrient solution plays a major role in the final quality of the tomato (and other) fruit. a high solution conductivity works by putting the plants under water stress (just like drought conditions)....

if the hydroponic solution conductivity is controlled to a level where it provides slight moisture stress, vegetative groweth will be reduced, the plants will be smaller and more compact, and the fruit quality will be imporved...

salt tolerance seems to be linked with an ability to increase the concentration of solutes in plant tissues...

so, the effect of water deficit in a high conductivity solution increases the percentage of dry matter, which provides the flavor component of the tomato...

...show that an increased concentration of the nutrient solution results in fruits with a higher percentage of dry matter, sugar, and acid, and consequently a better taste...

these increases in sugars and acids and reduction of in waer content of the fruit would result in a greater and improved tomato flavor has been proven in many taste test evaluations...."

feed-water-feed does not make ec spike. run-off re-fed, or evaporates. or, drawn into micro-climate of plants.helps keep garden cooler, etc... if re-fed, it more concentrated solution due to evaporation of water.

 

[daggerinmyback]

Dagger...

Three weeks away from your garden?

Crazy.

In a PPK set up?

Possible.

It looks like you're going to build out D9's current system.

You might have to link up... what... two hundred gallons for your bulk res?

If you link your RO filter to that (maybe figure out a way to have it kick in when 150 gallons are deplete?) you'll never run dry.

EDIT: CHECK OUT 'FLTVBHA1/4C' MIDWAY DOWN THE PAGE IN oo'S LINK.

If you have your spacing right, and are running vertical lights, you won't grow in the lamps.

PPKs are boring. For sure. And they might just work for you.

Will you post photos for us, or does basic self-preservation preclude such silliness?

I've tried to screw up the PPK every way possible. And I've failed.

Let's see if true hands-off neglect will run this system into the ground.

thank you OO and D9 very helpful links and through my medical ish back grounding I already had 5 feet of black surgical tubing

and I can res it up to 500 galllons if I wanted to slaving the big 55 gal blue plastic drums together... I have an awesome possibility for my garden as I can put res upstairs and feed lines down thru ceiling and have clone/veg in one room upstairs as well as a veg room down stairs ... and finally a bloom room downstairs lol im just starting out and yes already 80 plants in my garden of 15 different gene pools (plus I got a little clone happy with the stinkbud EZcloner) its very addictive... I dont hope to pull out huge trees but I'd love to... the only limiting factor at this point is the breaker boxes in buildings I use and carbon filter system limitations, you know things like that... now to buy the last apartment next door in my building.... for more PPK's and a giant filter and fan

I definitely want pulse feeding to keep media from having salt buildups I will be sitting with a drill for a LONG time here very soon, and we will see if Total negligence can break the PPK, I built two before I'd read through this whole thread lol so I have a start going but it only gets better with time as I keep reading... I plan on starting small like ten per res and only bloom ten at once for safety of smell, and trim = arthritis.... just seem bad lol

Im thinking a bunch of like 2 gal buckets on small square totes lol like a wicked PPK SOG or SCROG flipping them at like 20-24" maybe... I'll know for sure after I finish this grow in a few weeks what to do... the 2 gal soil grow on my Tightey Whitey is gonna be one of those 8lb wet weight plants 82 colas all equal height except centers 4" taller than rest and I chopped 23 clones off it ... DF and strict letting it go attitude with the over veg....

so many options and you guys make it worse by giving me stable safe and easy and CHEAP options...

thanks to everyone in here contributing though