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How to spot quantum quackery

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Alan Boyle writes: Can the weirdness of quantum mechanics make you well, or make you wealthy? Presentations ranging from "The Secret" to "What the Bleep Do We Know?" suggest that science allows you to capitalize on quantum possibilities, but theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss says it's just a load of bleep.

Krauss has dealt with factual and fictional weirdness for decades — as the author of "The Physics of Star Trek," as the head of Arizona State University's Origins Project, and as the author of a "Quantum Man," a soon-to-be-published biography of pioneering physicist Richard Feynman.

"I begin the book with a quote from Feynman that says, 'Reality takes precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled,'" he told me. "I think the point is that Feynman realized that people can be fooled, but nature can't."
Krauss worries that a lot of people can be fooled by appeals to the admittedly weird world of quantum physics — a world in which particles are said to take every possible path from point A to point B, in which the position and velocity of particles are necessarily cloaked in uncertainty, in which the mere act of observation changes the thing being observed.
In the last of a series of columns written for Scientific American, Krauss says "no area of physics stimulates more nonsense in the public arena than quantum mechanics." His list of "worst abusers" includes inspirational author Deepak Chopra, the best-selling book "The Secret" and the whole field of Transcendental Meditation. So what constitutes quantum quackery? Krauss discussed his criteria ln our interview last week. Here's an edited transcript:

Cosmic Log: Every once in a while, you'll hear about something like "The Secret," or some other reference to quantum mechanics as explaining how you can change your universe, or even perhaps why it's in the realm of possibility that a globe-gobbling black hole could be created — because "anything can happen" in quantum mechanics. But I assume that's not quite right, and that sometimes quantum mechanics' name is taken in vain.
Lawrence Krauss: I think it's probably one of the most abused concepts in physics among the public. You should be wary whenever you hear something like, "Quantum mechanics connects you with the universe" ... or "quantum mechanics unifies you with everything else." You can begin to be skeptical that the speaker is somehow trying to use quantum mechanics to argue fundamentally that you can change the world by thinking about it.

Q: But isn't everything really connected? Doesn't the quantum world pervade everything that we see around us?
A: Of course it does. So does classical physics. The quantum world does pervade everything around us, but as Richard Feynman liked to say, "Scientific creativity is imagination in a straitjacket." Not everything is possible. That's what makes the world so interesting. It is true that quantum mechanics is extremely strange, and on extremely small scales for short times, all sorts of weird things happen. And in fact we can make weird quantum phenomena happen. But what quantum mechanics doesn't change about the universe is, if you want to change things, you still have to do something. You can't change the world by thinking about it.
We are connected to the world by many things: by light and sound and heat. We do, at subatomic scale, behave quantum mechanically. But we behave like classical objects for a reason: We're big, we have lots of particles, they interact. All the weirdness of quantum mechanics gets washed out on the scale that we can experience. That's why we experience a classical world.
The weirdness of quantum mechanics is reserved for either very specially prepared configurations in the laboratory, or scales that are so small that quantum-mechanical effects are significant.
We're also connected to the universe by gravity, and we're connected to the planets by gravity. But that doesn't mean that astrology is true. With quantum mechanics, there's a notion that observers affect the things that they're observing. That's not always true, but it's often true. That's one of the very strange properties of quantum mechanics. Therefore people get the notion that there's no objective reality, and that you can literally impact on the external world just by doing things internally. That's not the case. If you want to affect something in the external world, you have to do something to it. You can't just hope for the best. You can't bring good things to you by thinking about them.
The quantum mechanical correlations, the spooky action at a distance that quantum mechanics brings up, is true only for very specially prepared systems that are isolated from the rest of the world, completely. And we are certainly not isolated from the rest of the world. We're bombarded by many things every second of the day, and a result, we're not specially prepared quantum mechanical systems, nor can we exert weird quantum powers over other objects.

Q: Some scientists, such as Sir Roger Penrose, have talked about neurons as quantum systems. And a lot of people talk about quantum consciousness ... that even if the everyday world we see is not a system that can be changed, our consciousness about the world can be changed.
A: Well, Roger Penrose has given lots of new-age crackpots ammunition by suggesting that at some fundamental scale, quantum mechanics might be relevant for consciousness. When you hear the term "quantum consciousness," you should be suspicious. The reason you should be suspicious is because we don't even understand classical consciousness. If we don't understand classical consciousness, how can we understand quantum consciousness? Many people are dubious that Penrose's suggestions are reasonable, because the brain is not an isolated quantum-mechanical system. To some extent it could be, because memories and thoughts are stored at the molecular level, and at a molecular level quantum mechanics is significant. Quantum mechanics may play a role at some level in the way the brain works ... just as it may play a role in photosynthesis.
But that still doesn't mean that, at a global level, the weirdness of quantum mechanics is manifest. It's certainly not. If it were manifest, you could run at a wall a lot of times, and every now and then you'd spontaneously appear on the other side of the wall.

Q: You do see that in some science-fiction shows — for example, last season on "Fringe." And quantum mechanics is often used as the explanation for that.
A: Quantum mechanics is often quoted as the explanation for many things, because it's so weird that people latch onto it as a hope, to explain everything that they would like to believe about the universe. Everything from the possibility of disappearing and reappearing, to the possibility of having strange new forms of communication. We'd like to be able to influence things just by thinking about them, we'd like to transport ourselves elsewhere without getting on an airplane. All those things can be attributed to quantum mechanics — first of all, because it's so poorly understood by the public, and especially because it's so verifiably weird. It's used as an excuse to be even weirder. I think of what Niels Bohr said to Wolfgang Pauli about theories that are "not crazy enough to be true." Quantum mechanics is crazy, but it's just crazy enough to make the world still be sensible at a macroscopic level, the level that we experience.
It's truly amazing that you can separate two elementary particles that were originally tied together, and often make a measurement of one particle that instantly affects the other, even if it's on Alpha Centauri. That sounds like magic. There are lots of things in quantum mechanics that sound like magic. But sounding like magic and being magic are two different things.

Q: Obviously, quantum mechanics has lots of real-life applications, including in your television set and your microwave oven. But are there new, weird applications that people might see that have an impact on everyday life, beyond the woo-woo?
A: Absolutely. One has already been recognized: If we do carefully prepare quantum systems, and keep them isolated, we can perform quantum magic technologically — potentially on scales that we haven't been able to do before. We might be able to create quantum computers, for example, that will simultaneously do many different calculations at once, because the quantum world is capable of doing many things at the same time. We may be able to use quantum communication in ways that we haven't done before.
The debate here is that we'll be able to use quantum mechanics to break codes, in particular to determine the big prime numbers that are at the basis of the security of your credit cards and your bank cards. Right now they use a key that's based on the products of large prime numbers, and no computer could determine the prime factors in a time shorter than the age of the universe. But quantum-mechanical computers might be able to, and then of course we'd have to start thinking about how to make things more secure.
The flip side of that is that you can use quantum mechanics, again in specially prepared systems, to communicate in a way that will allow us to know when someone is eavesdropping. So on one hand you have a threat to security, and on the other you have a possible boon for security. We don't know which way it's going to go.
One other area where quantum mechanics works on a macroscopic scale is in superconductivity and superfluidity. Those are two places where the quantum world leaks into the classical world. We're not using either superconductivity or superfluidity yet on the scale that I think people thought we might. But we're certainly using them at the Large Hadron Collider, which we couldn't even operate if we didn't have superconducting magnets.
So when you hear about quantum mechanics and devices, you can say, "OK, that sounds reasonable." But when you hear about quantum mechanics and consciousness, you should assume the author is a crackpot unless proven otherwise. Moreover, assume that they want your money. ...

Q: Why do you think that people have seized upon this? I guess it's a sign that quantum physics is entering the mainstream...
A: Well, yeah, the point is that there have been these new-age desires for lots of things to make the world better: crystals, energy vortices. ... People latch onto their dreams, and they always try to match them to reality. Quantum mechanics is a replacement for the phrase "anything goes." Once anything goes, you can have anything you want. So what better thing to have than something that gives you everything you want? The point is, with quantum mechanics, everything doesn't go. On certain scales, for certain times, in certain regions, everything goes and strange things happen. But it's not true for the universe at large.

Often, people who are trying to sell whatever it is they're trying to sell try to justify it on the basis of science. Everyone knows quantum mechanics is weird, so why not use that to justify it? ... I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Oh, I love quantum mechanics because I'm really into meditation, or I love the spiritual benefits that it brings me." But quantum mechanics, for better or worse, doesn't bring any more spiritual benefits than gravity does.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
conversely, in a time where the individual has lost much of there capacity in the shadow of conglomerates, does it not make sense to tell the mind to look past current paradigms to find new value in individuality and thus add value to ones own life through inventive ideology?

people are buying into ever aspect of extremes because they feel disillusioned by the status quo

I understand that to search beyond the realm of possibility may seem fruitless, but its the search out from the norm that starts everyones adventure to discovering truth

I like to think of the inventors of flight in these instances

humans constantly establish a scientific norm and then through the use of ideation past the paradigm make new discoveries and refine the science to a more finite exactness

i am not very fond of the schools of science, i think they are no less apt to corruption or error and thus misinformation because of the lure of profit

before you jump to argue that one, remember all the things science does in the name of

BIG PHARMA

:)

sorry head the devils advocate popped right up and spit that out
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
the disillusioned individual is free to imagine whatever that individual imagines... but regardless, what is is.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
the disillusioned individual is free to imagine whatever that individual imagines... but regardless, what is is.

this is not a commentary on the delusion, but an observation of cause and effect on a few levels

one. the need relative to todays society thus the popularity and prevalence of qauntum quackery

two. the perceived benefit

three. the byproduct which can result in a real benefit

four. its very much a STRONG opinion of mine that only a restricted intellect finds enjoyment in the critique of those who they do not think posses intellect, those with unrestricted intellect use it thinking past paradigms not within them

five. the fact that the science you herald as being the Saviour of mankind is responsible for its chemical slavery because in fact it is the failure of medical sociological psychological political and chemical science to fulfill our needs people are desperate for change

we know the weak minded are weak but tell me this, if the sharp minded are so smart why aren't they addressing the the faults that lay within their reality (like corruption in government or medical science) and not the faults of those who they don't believe live in relativity?

perhaps cause they are just as frustrated and have as few answers as everyone else and just express it differently?
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
sadly corruption, the love of money and power over others, isnt a flaw of the weak mind, but of weak ethics. Another man's greed for either cannot be altered by the best worded arguements crafted by the greatest minds alive. Medical advancements are always created by the most intelligent though, it is after all, scientific knowledge that is allowing us to push the cause of the plant that we love so much, forward. It is political will that has held the plant out of the reach of so many, and for that I refer you back to the beginning of my post. And no matter the strength of the intellect, a bullet, iron bars and censorship will always be effective weapons against it.
The critique of the weaker minds as you put it, is often, I believe, not so much a care about the content of those minds, but rather a desire to leave behind a balance to the presentation of the arguement, so that those without such a dissadvantage in life may make a clear judgement in the light of that balance.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
sadly corruption, the love of money and power over others, isnt a flaw of the weak mind, but of weak ethics. Another man's greed for either cannot be altered by the best worded arguements crafted by the greatest minds alive. Medical advancements are always created by the most intelligent though, it is after all, scientific knowledge that is allowing us to push the cause of the plant that we love so much, forward. It is political will that has held the plant out of the reach of so many, and for that I refer you back to the beginning of my post. And no matter the strength of the intellect, a bullet, iron bars and censorship will always be effective weapons against it.
The critique of the weaker minds as you put it, is often, I believe, not so much a care about the content of those minds, but rather a desire to leave behind a balance to the presentation of the arguement, so that those without such a dissadvantage in life may make a clear judgement in the light of that balance.

so why not as i suggested focus that desire to leave a balance in places where the ripple may change the injustices of the world instead of the trying to balance the presentation of information to the victims of the injustice of corruption and exploration

more bang for your buck and less continued victimization of the same demographic

and really how are you creating a balance for people, let examine that statement

people seek alternative healing because mainstream healing failed so by offering NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT YOU SEEK IS A FAILURE without the compliment of another solution for them explore is taking away even the placebo effect which gets a fair part of the population by on its own merits

part of medical science uses placebos so lets be completely relative if we are to balance things intellectually for people
 
I

In~Plain~Site

You can change your own world by 'thinking' about it, as the author so lightly puts it.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
You can change your own world by 'thinking' about it, as the author so lightly puts it.

I think you should read the article again. That is not what the author is saying at all, lightly or otherwise.
In fact it is the opposite of what the author is saying.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
five. the fact that the science you herald as being the Saviour of mankind is responsible for its chemical slavery because in fact it is the failure of medical sociological psychological political and chemical science to fulfill our needs people are desperate for change
You seem to be confusing 'science' with 'people misusing scientific discoveries.'
we know the weak minded are weak but tell me this, if the sharp minded are so smart why aren't they addressing the the faults that lay within their reality (like corruption in government or medical science) and not the faults of those who they don't believe live in relativity?

?
They are addressing both.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
You can change your own world by 'thinking' about it, as the author so lightly puts it.

and that is indeed a danger when that world is not congruent with reality but the fact remains that our own personal change only occurs from within

human interaction is a relative catalyst

there are various archetypes of intellect that have their own natural ways of perceiving

some people learn and function within boundaries some function better without and while I don't think it suits us to change our archetype I do think we posses the capacity to think and feel "outside" our own being and that if we learn to do this, the meaning of relative interpretation comes into play

in the end there is an an overall cause and effect

interestingly enough most anyone who "medicates" or "exercises" or "plays music" or does any plethora of things that stimulates the endocrine systems and our chemical balance.

couple that with introspective perspectives, and a desire for change and we are all participate in "alternative" healing

what the real cause and effects are need to be measured against

efforts = cause
intended result = perceived benefits or effect
actual results = true benefits or effect

true benefits - efforts = positive or negative effort

I think that the move to "quantum" is really a voyage by man to trust in the cause and result without knowing the exact mechanisms

isn't this how we discovered flight

through vision, which was refined to ideation, to an invention, to trial and error then to success

and that is one of the mechanism that I feel the "quantum" movement brings of benefit, and that is that we become dimensional or use an array of approaches to dealing with problems instead of looking at everything in a linear sequential manner

if we are living beings we thrive on more than ideation and this is where the gap between modern medicine and alternative healing IMHO lies

multi dimensional techniques

i think a good therapeutic regiment should have ideation, nutrition,s medicine, embody physical actions and interaction with a community

we need to meet the needs our beings were designed to have not try to mute them out using so we can do as the incumbent main stream suggests
 
I

In~Plain~Site

Successful men throughout history already knew this.

What was the point again?
 
I

In~Plain~Site

and that is indeed a danger when that world is not congruent with reality but the fact remains that our own personal change only occurs from within

human interaction is a relative catalyst

there are various archetypes of intellect that have their own natural ways of perceiving

some people learn and function within boundaries some function better without and while I don't think it suits us to change our archetype I do think we posses the capacity to think and feel "outside" our own being and that if we learn to do this, the meaning of relative interpretation comes into play

in the end there is an an overall cause and effect

interestingly enough most anyone who "medicates" or "exercises" or "plays music" or does any plethora of things that stimulates the endocrine systems and our chemical balance.

couple that with introspective perspectives, and a desire for change and we are all participate in "alternative" healing

what the real cause and effects are need to be measured against

efforts = cause
intended result = perceived benefits or effect
actual results = true benefits or effect

true benefits - efforts = positive or negative effort

I think that the move to "quantum" is really a voyage by man to trust in the cause and result without knowing the exact mechanisms

isn't this how we discovered flight

through vision, which was refined to ideation, to an invention, to trial and error then to success

and that is one of the mechanism that I feel the "quantum" movement brings of benefit, and that is that we become dimensional or use an array of approaches to dealing with problems instead of looking at everything in a linear sequential manner

if we are living beings we thrive on more than ideation and this is where the gap between modern medicine and alternative healing IMHO lies

multi dimensional techniques

i think a good therapeutic regiment should have ideation, nutrition,s medicine, embody physical actions and interaction with a community

we need to meet the needs our beings were designed to have not try to mute them out using so we can do as the incumbent main stream suggests


I agree.

The crux here is that the individual cannot fully reach their potential without fully embracing the transcedental approach.

Not to put too fine a point on it, in other words, one is not possible without the other.

If everyone would do this, most problems would take care of themselves...at least the man-made issues.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
You seem to be confusing 'science' with 'people misusing scientific discoveries.'
They are addressing both.

i think they are polarizing the issue instead of examining it as the phenomenon that it is and the real cause and effect of why.

marijuana has been an alternative medicine for me much to my chagrin over these years due to mainstream interpretation even by the scientific community

thankfully their view did not exonerate the benefits

my point is that even there is a sore need for people to find balance and that the mainstream solutions and resulting effect, which, here in America, are all about scientifically defined solutions (aka meds and psych) is not cutting the proverbial mustard

i think we need to see the failure in that spectrum and compare it to the success in the other to discover the mechanisms that make the differential

in fact is it not a better alternative to read some book and apply some abstract model of positive thinking and live in the application of simply analogy or inspiration by parable than to continue to pay into the IMHO a very corrupt and defective american medical and pharmaceutical regime if not at least a cpl years salary cheaper?

quantum to me is applying hypothesis beyond the common and current paradigm whose resultant cause and effect is measured micro & macro analysis

perfect .. no

cultivating a potential to live in optimism and refocus ones mind from living in a shit pit of self imposed hells?

for many change starts somewhere in digestible relative portions

i think there is much to be learned if we were to analysis the greater phenomenon

for example where is pot in alternative healing and where is the the multi arrayed application to have an exponential benefit

applying it to a regiment of physical therapy or psychotherapy as an example

if this were a critique of american use of alternative energies we may encounter the same phenomenon, greed, corruption, failure and inefficiency but on the same token you need learn to crawl before you walk

and this is where american medical and pharmaceutical science has been failed us and why there is such a resurgence in alternative healing

how do you think a nation of mortgage and investment bankers fuck people heartless ? you dont think they aren't popping tons of good old american conscience dissolving medications like xanax and oxycoton?
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Just to clarify what quantum mechanics is, anything that weighs less than 0.0000000000000000000000001g operates according to the laws of quantum mechanics. Anything weighing more than that operates according to the laws of classical physics.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
i think they are polarizing the issue instead of examining it as the phenomenon that it is and the real cause and effect of why.

marijuana has been an alternative medicine for me much to my chagrin over these years due to mainstream interpretation even by the scientific community

thankfully their view did not exonerate the benefits

my point is that even there is a sore need for people to find balance and that the mainstream solutions and resulting effect, which, here in America, are all about scientifically defined solutions (aka meds and psych) is not cutting the proverbial mustard

i think we need to see the failure in that spectrum and compare it to the success in the other to discover the mechanisms that make the differential

in fact is it not a better alternative to read some book and apply some abstract model of positive thinking and live in the application of simply analogy or inspiration by parable than to continue to pay into the IMHO a very corrupt and defective american medical and pharmaceutical regime if not at least a cpl years salary cheaper?

quantum to me is applying hypothesis beyond the common and current paradigm whose resultant cause and effect is measured micro & macro analysis

perfect .. no

cultivating a potential to live in optimism and refocus ones mind from living in a shit pit of self imposed hells?

for many change starts somewhere in digestible relative portions

i think there is much to be learned if we were to analysis the greater phenomenon

for example where is pot in alternative healing and where is the the multi arrayed application to have an exponential benefit

applying it to a regiment of physical therapy or psychotherapy as an example

if this were a critique of american use of alternative energies we may encounter the same phenomenon, greed, corruption, failure and inefficiency but on the same token you need learn to crawl before you walk

and this is where american medical and pharmaceutical science has been failed us and why there is such a resurgence in alternative healing

how do you think a nation of mortgage and investment bankers fuck people heartless ? you dont think they aren't popping tons of good old american conscience dissolving medications like xanax and oxycoton?

Still, don't confuse 'science' with 'the people who would use or misuse science to accomplish their own ends'.

Science supports medical marijuana.

Any 'alternative medicine' that has any real effect can be considered to be scientific.
Someone observed some effects, figured out what caused the effects, and duplicated the effects experimentally.

psychosomatic effect is scientifically verifiable, as well.

Science is science, whether mainstream or alternative.
what is is, and what works works.


What is, simply is.
Just because you might not like what is, or just because someone uses what is toward nefarious ends, does not change that what is is.

Those who try to misapply science toward spiritual ends, and those who distort science to suggest that your mind can capitalize on the quantum possibilities to change your reality, are just as guilty of fucking people as those who misapply science to persecute marijuana users or who misuse science to keep the masses addicted to pharma poisons.

To equate science itself to the human greed misusing science is to miss the mark and miss the point.
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
Just to clarify what quantum mechanics is, anything that weighs less than 0.0000000000000000000000001g operates according to the laws of quantum mechanics. Anything weighing more than that operates according to the laws of classical physics.

Until it weighs a WHOLE LOT...and then it goes to a whole new set of problems.

Don't you get it? It's scale... Like "visible light" in the EM spectrum.

We live in a "window" that we can understand...everything beyond that...too big or too small...we can't measure, therefore, we can't understand it. It has an effect on us, it "moves" something that we can measure, so we know it's there...a la "dark energy, dark matter, chaos, etc". But it's just too small or too big to ever "see".

In a hundred years, we'll look back at these theories and laugh. Just as we have at all the wrong theories before us.

What? You think we've FINALLY reached the end? Huh! It's just begun... These current theories are no closer than "caloric". Yup..."something" is doing it...but what? We don't know, it's too small to see. I think quarks and electrons are made of something else...as is it too...and it...and it...

I also think it goes big...infinitely. The solar system, the galaxy, the local group, the pattern of the universe, multiple universes in a pattern...crystalline maybe? Amorphous? Who knows...we won't.

I'm not saying we should give up, each breakthrough gives us a new technology...by all means, keep looking, but I think we WILL reach an end. A point where we run out of new options, and we still don't know the theory of everything.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Nobody ever implied in the slightest manner that we had reached the end, or understood everything perfectly.

But... our scientific understanding is not the house of cards some people like to pretend it is, where new discoveries upset the entire structure and change the paradigm completely.

Science is much more like a jigsaw puzzle... sometimes we find that we had a piece or two in the wrong spot, or two pieces connected that shouldn't be, and have to move them around a bit... but every time we do the big picture becomes clearer.

Instead of pretending that scientists look back at old theories and laugh, why not realize that what we know now is build on what we learned then, and what we'll know 500 years from now will, in all likelihood, be built on what we know now (as opposed to replacing what we know now).
 
Quantum Physics is the ultimate labor saving device! If you can change the world just by thinking about it, why even get out of bed in the morning?

This kind of thing is also called "magical thinking" and is popular with children and idiots.

Popularizers of quantum theory are preying on the stupidity of their audiences.
 
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