What can we do about Climate Change?

[chongsbuddy]

i obviously did not really mean that,but i just get so frustrated sometimes.the point i was really trying to get across is that someone has to be held accountable,and if they keep getting away with small consequences there will be no change.but really,who the fuck are we kidding,we will never smarten up.i live by smal means,people think im a loser,but it is a choice.i think it is sad to be judged for being a friend to the earth,eventually i wantto go off the grid.

 

[sac beh]

Your problem is right there in your signature... You think you can make what's real...what's reality...better.

If you would like to learn the context and explanation of my signature, we can discuss that somewhere else.

I told you...you want America to be just like Jamaica...I don't. End of the discussion on that...OK?

No one has suggested that the US should become like a third world country.
That's a complete mischaracterization of this thread.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

what is it called when someone argues with their distortion of your position, instead of your actual position?

 

[ibjamming]

No one has suggested that the US should become like a third world country.
That's a complete mischaracterization of this thread.

I am still amazed that you support this neofeudalistic paradigm, in which nations of elites subject nations of serfs... and then try to blame the harm which industrialization has caused, on the subjected serf nations.


If you kill off all of the world's poor, who's going to make cheap smartphones for you to buy?

Actually sac is saying just that...Jamaica is ranked 3rd in whatever Utopian standard she was trying to convince me to accept.

Damn it...get it straight...I don't want to KILL anyone. I want to stop sending aid overseas. I want the chips to fall where they may. Some WILL survive...the better few. And they can reconstruct their country and make it into whatever they can make it into. NO HELP from the US government...it has no constitutional right to send aid...it's not it's job.

Only modern plastic are made of oil, mostly because there has been no research to further the original plastic formulations. The original plastics were made from cow urea. Oil has no monopoly on plastic production.

Next ....

Ooooh clever...just HOW much plastic do you think we can make with "cow piss"? As a solution, that's about as bright as replacing our motor fuel with used cooking oil. You better be eating a LOT of french fries!

And someone gave that a thumbs up?

Another "deep thinker"...covered all the possibilities before you decided it's a good idea?

"oil dependence" is a propaganda concept made up by oilmen.

BULL! The propaganda is that you're going to find something REMOTELY close economically, to replace it...you won't...not in the volume we need. How much oil DO we use in a day? A year? I want YOU to look it up so you remember how HUGE that number is! What are you going to replace that with? And how are you going to make it? Oil is FREE...you drill a hole and it shoots out! Where else are you going to get free energy? Free raw material for...EVERYTHING! Nowhere, that's where. That's why I said "burnable water"...that's how energy dense and abundant it MUST be to have a chance.

ALL these cute little ideas are niches...nothing more. They take advantage of recycling...recycling energy that was already put into it to make it in the first place. Nothing organic will work...it would take up too much room. How big a tank do you think you're going to have to make to grow things that will make fuel?

We need a NEW technology...some breakthrough that lets us cheaply and easily "make" portable energy. Remember...if you can't sell it like gasoline or utility power...nobody will be interested.

what is it called when someone argues with their distortion of your position, instead of your actual position?

I'd like to know...you guys are the kings of it! You put words in my mouth all the time...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Actually, No sac was not saying just that.
You are aware that the areas in between extremes are filled with reasonable middle ground?


I understand exactly what you want... YOU have to understand, if you weren't so greedy for western style excesses, then people in third world countries could be paid a fair rate... and would not need aid.

You don't want to kill people, you'd rather they be exploited until they die of semi natural causes.

There is a lot of cow piss.
Plastics can be made from things other than cow piss and oil.
Look up cellophane.

Petroleum based plastics release carcinogens.
A major reason health care costs are out of hand
are the carcinogens we consume daily.

Oil dependence is bullshit propaganda made up by oilmen.
You need to educate yourself.

Oil is not free... that's just silly...
Know what's free? The CO2 and Methane which could be used in GTL tech by companies like CarbonSciences. In case you are still completely unaware... GTL tech being perfected there turns greenhouse gasses into GASOLINE.... gasoline that is not derived from fossil fuels.

Sunlight and wind and tidal power are all free too.

You are really unaware of too many things to hold such strong opinions.

And... You're the only one here engaging in Straw man arguments via perverted analogy (that's what it is called).

 

[NUG-JUG]

What can we do about Climate Change?

Read Bill McKibben's book Eaarth about living on a new planet since climate change is here to stay. The earth can support 350 ppm of CO2 we've got 400 trending towadrd 5-600..weird weather is here to stay..life is about to get much harder. I think the best way to make climate change at least livable is to change the way we grow and produce our food..It takes 9 calories of energy to make 1 calorie of "food" (mostly processed corn-based products).

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Actually, I think it's ME with the firmer grip on reality...

...I have irrefutable evidence of my own...I just can't use it or say anything. Because it won't be politically correct, I'll be "bashing" people of color...and we all know that's not allowed.

BTW, did you notice Africa on the chart? Pretty obvious there are big problems there...please explain their ranking and please explain why they're ranked where they are.

Now explain why they rank the same no matter which country they happen to be living in. If you were to take the US stats and then break them down by race, you'd see that there would be a similar chart but the division would be blue/purple colors for white regions and more red/black for the black areas. It follows them... Please explain the reason for that? Is THAT "my" fault too?

You liberals get these crazy ideas in your head that everyone is the same...

Actually, I blame women for most of our problems.

and I see in another thread

A woman who hits is open to get hit. A woman who uses words...needs to heed the "do not cross line" or she too risks violence.

You're a racist, and sexist, and the type who believes in beating women for talking out of line.

This is the last thing I'm probably ever going to say to you before you go onto my very very short ignore list.

You epitomize all that I find to be worst in the human psyche.

You extol Greed, Gluttony, and the abuse of those who are the wrong skin tone or sex... and You deride moderation, reason, compassion, and empathy.

I see nothing to be gained by anyone, as a result of my further participation in conversation with you.

peace and love to you and yours, and i sincerely hope you outgrow your extremist views.

 

[ibjamming]

Actually, No sac was not saying just that.

You are aware that the areas in between extremes are filled with reasonable middle ground?


I understand exactly what you want... YOU have to understand, if you weren't so greedy for western style excesses, then people in third world countries could be paid a fair rate... and would not need aid.

There is a lot of cow piss.
Plastics can be made from things other than cow piss and oil.
Look up cellophane.

Petroleum based plastics release carcinogens.
A major reason health care costs are out of hand
are the carcinogens we consume daily.

Oil dependence is bullshit propaganda made up by oilmen.
You need to educate yourself.

Oil is not free... that's just silly...
Know what's free? The CO2 and Methane which could be used in GTL tech by companies like CarbonSciences. In case you are still completely unaware... GTL tech being perfected there turns greenhouse gasses into GASOLINE.... gasoline that is not derived from fossil fuels.

Sunlight and wind and tidal power are all free too.

You are really unaware of too many things to hold such strong opinions.

And... You're the only one here engaging in Straw man arguments via perverted analogy (that's what it is called).

It ALL comes down to philosophical differences really...that's why we fail to see eye to eye. I look at it like a male...I work hard and I expect to keep what I can earn. You look at it like a female...everyone deserves equal treatment and nurturing.

As for "cutting back so you can have a chance"...good luck. Nope, I earned mine...you work for yours. Yup, selfish...but it's in my blood...

When you sell your house, all your posessions, and give it to the poor or use it to buy a ticket to start your new life in Jamaica...you send me a letter. Otherwise, you're full of shit and you're talking out your ass. Sure, you'll give it all up for the environment when everyone else does...right? I bet you'll be the last one to "pull the plug".

The hypocrisy of the left...if you REALLY felt that strongly, you'd have already made your contribution and we wouldn't be here talking to you. How many of you whiners are driving an SUV? I always have "done my part", I've always driven 30+ MPG vehicles. I take my motorcycle whenever possible. Not necessarily to conserve anything but my money. I just don't waste. It's not an environmental thing.

Perverted analogy...wow, you've named it. So, THAT'S why I'm wrong! Hmmm...

Oil is more "free" than trying to stick together atoms. I'm waiting to see the plant that can do 882,000,000 gallons per DAY.

Unaware of WHAT? Some people making some "device" that's going to make 882,000,000 gallons a day?

What you're either unaware of, or purposely ignoring is the vast quantities we're talking about. The earth uses 3.5 BILLION gallons a day of oil. Unless you agree with sac, and you want us to cut way back... Where are you going to come up with 3.5 billion gallons of highly flammable and highly valuable consumables per DAY?

ALL the things you state will help, sure, but none will replace oil. The oilmen have it right...they've got us by the balls.

 

[ibjamming]

and I see in another thread


You're a racist, and sexist, and the type who believes in beating women for talking out of line.

This is the last thing I'm probably ever going to say to you before you go onto my very very short ignore list.

You epitomize all that I find to be worst in the human psyche.

You extol Greed, Gluttony, and the abuse of those who are the wrong skin tone or sex... and You deride moderation, reason, compassion, and empathy.

I see nothing to be gained by anyone, as a result of my further participation in conversation with you.

peace and love to you and yours, and i sincerely hope you outgrow your extremist views.

Boy...you sure missed the middle ground and went right for the extreme... Sure in CERTAIN circumstances a woman can be HIT...I NEVER said beat. Again, you're not HONEST when you come back. You take thing way to far to the extreme. Not exactly a glass half full kind of guy? You're another that thinks some people need "protection"? They're "equal"...but not REALLY equal... Whatever... (I bet you get that a lot from people)

Yup...I'm a man and you hate me for it...so be it.

By!

And bury your head a little deeper...a little reality was slipping in...until you shut me down.

My way or the highway...so many people use that tired old cliche...

Good luck to you too...I think you may need more "luck" than I do. I make things go my way...I'm not a victim.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

OK... I lied... this'll probably be the last, but I could not leave so much unadulterated drivel pass without comment...

It ALL comes down to philosophical differences really...that's why we fail to see eye to eye. I look at it like a male...I work hard and I expect to keep what I can earn. You look at it like a female...everyone deserves equal treatment and nurturing.

No... you look at it like a greedy selfish genetic throwback to a less evolved period, and I look at it through the eyes of reason.

It's ok... I understand you being bound to our primitive past... research shows that generally only people with a higher IQ are able to exhibit evolutionarily novel behavior.

As for "cutting back so you can have a chance"...good luck. Nope, I earned mine...you work for yours. Yup, selfish...but it's in my blood...

I've never asked you for anything. Do you not read my posts, or are you unable to comprehend what you've read?

I'm white. Of Brittish and Norman descent with a small bit of germanic a small bit of semitic and a small bit of native american in me. I'm whiter that a lot of white people. I was born in the USA, as were my ancestors for 200 years. I live in the USA now. I have never even drawn unemployment, much less aid.

I work for mine, and I share mine.

Yup selfishness is in your blood. Are you unable to rise above it?

When you sell your house, all your posessions, and give it to the poor or use it to buy a ticket to start your new life in Jamaica...you send me a letter. Otherwise, you're full of shit and you're talking out your ass. Sure, you'll give it all up for the environment when everyone else does...right? I bet you'll be the last one to "pull the plug".

Why are you so unwilling to realize that there is a vast middle ground in between the two tiny little extremes you acknowledge?

I have made a practice of sharing my extra with those who need for my entire life.

The hypocrisy of the left...if you REALLY felt that strongly, you'd have already made your contribution and we wouldn't be here talking to you. How many of you whiners are driving an SUV? I always have "done my part", I've always driven 30+ MPG vehicles. I take my motorcycle whenever possible. Not necessarily to conserve anything but my money. I just don't waste. It's not an environmental thing.

You're making untrue unfounded accusations. You have no idea what I or anyone but yourself and maybe a couple of people you know contribute.

Perverted analogy...wow, you've named it. So, THAT'S why I'm wrong! Hmmm...

Yes. that's one of the reasons. When you take another person's statements, and condense them into an analogy that has a meaning which is perverted from the meaning of the other persons statements... and you argue against that perverted analogy instead of what the other person's clear intentions were, then your arguments loose their effectiveness.

Oil is more "free" than trying to stick together atoms. I'm waiting to see the plant that can do 882,000,000 gallons per DAY.

Unaware of WHAT? Some people making some "device" that's going to make 882,000,000 gallons a day?

only a dolt would think that they were limited to a single facility.

Is there only one oil well, and only one refinery?

What you're either unaware of, or purposely ignoring is the vast quantities we're talking about. The earth uses 3.5 BILLION gallons a day of oil. Unless you agree with sac, and you want us to cut way back... Where are you going to come up with 3.5 billion gallons of highly flammable and highly valuable consumables per DAY?

No, I want us to begin the process of replacing the oil with the many other techs that are being developed to replace specific uses of fossil fuels.

ALL the things you state will help, sure, but none will replace oil. The oilmen have it right...they've got us by the balls.

We don't have to instantly replace oil, and nothing I've said at any point has suggested that I think we can.

It obviously has to be a process of moving from the current paradigm, through a period of years where oil is phased out as other technologies are able to fill in the gap, to a time when oil has become inefficient and unnecessary.

but at the same time there has to be education to increase awareness of the need for increased personal responsibility.

like I have said all along, the only real solution is going to be an integration of all available viable solutions...


Additionally, you mistake self control for weakness, and confuse your inability to hold your temper with being a man. There is a time to hit someone, but you seem to lack some discernment as to when that might be, and err (as usual) toward excess.


and with that. good day.

 

[guest456mpy]

GH,

FWIW, IBJAMMING is already on my extremely short ignore list. I suggest you do the same. There is no winning with folks like him. Just let him and all his bad karma go.

 

[ibjamming]

OK... I lied... this'll probably be the last, but I could not leave so much unadulterated drivel pass without comment...
No... you look at it like a greedy selfish genetic throwback to a less evolved period, and I look at it through the eyes of reason.

It's ok... I understand you being bound to our primitive past... research shows that generally only people with a higher IQ are able to exhibit evolutionarily novel behavior.I've never asked you for anything. Do you not read my posts, or are you unable to comprehend what you've read?

I'm white. Of Brittish and Norman descent with a small bit of germanic a small bit of semitic and a small bit of native american in me. I'm whiter that a lot of white people. I was born in the USA, as were my ancestors for 200 years. I live in the USA now. I have never even drawn unemployment, much less aid.

I work for mine, and I share mine.

Yup selfishness is in your blood. Are you unable to rise above it?Why are you so unwilling to realize that there is a vast middle ground in between the two tiny little extremes you acknowledge?

I have made a practice of sharing my extra with those who need for my entire life.
You're making untrue unfounded accusations. You have no idea what I or anyone but yourself and maybe a couple of people you know contribute.Yes. that's one of the reasons. When you take another person's statements, and condense them into an analogy that has a meaning which is perverted from the meaning of the other persons statements... and you argue against that perverted analogy instead of what the other person's clear intentions were, then your arguments loose their effectiveness.only a dolt would think that they were limited to a single facility.

Is there only one oil well, and only one refinery?

No, I want us to begin the process of replacing the oil with the many other techs that are being developed to replace specific uses of fossil fuels.



We don't have to instantly replace oil, and nothing I've said at any point has suggested that I think we can.

It obviously has to be a process of moving from the current paradigm, through a period of years where oil is phased out as other technologies are able to fill in the gap, to a time when oil has become inefficient and unnecessary.

but at the same time there has to be education to increase awareness of the need for increased personal responsibility.

like I have said all along, the only real solution is going to be an integration of all available viable solutions...


Additionally, you mistake self control for weakness, and confuse your inability to hold your temper with being a man. There is a time to hit someone, but you seem to lack some discernment as to when that might be, and err (as usual) toward excess.


and with that. good day.

Reason is letting people take my hard earned money and giving it away? To people that I feel have had enough welfare over the past 150 years? No, that's being a sucker.

Fine if you CHOOSE to give to others...more power to you! But don't expect the same from me. And don't expect me to be happy when you take from me.

No, there are many wells and many refineries. That's my question though...WHAT are you going to use to come up with 882,000,000 gallons of fuel PER DAY. I already told you...water is the ONLY thing we have in that abundance...did you not comprehend that? You can't just whip up a billion gallons a day of gasoline by pulling it out of your ass. WHAT are you going to use for a "base stock"? That's the raw ingredient you have to turn into 882,000,000 gallons of gas PER DAY.

Anything else and you are AUTOMATICALLY lowering our standard of living. Which I (being the greedy bastard I am) won't accept.

"Replacing with many techs" won't work! Don't you get it? Oil is EFFICIENT beyond belief. In actuality, if you were to develop another fuel, it probably wouldn't be as high a BTU rating and you'd probably need a billion gallons a day or more. Do you know how much air you'd have to suck in each day to make a billion gallons a day? You'd be bitching about that next..."you're using up all the air to make gas!"

See there you go again...ASSUMING I go around beating women...you point fingers yet are just as guilty.


There are just too many people looking to use a limited resource. We need less people...sorry... You're trying to be Jesus and feed the masses with one loaf...you can't do it...some will have to go without so the rest may go on. A few with a full belly to survive is better than everyone "demanding their share" and everyone getting only a taste...not enough to survive. Same thing here...only so much resources to go around...some people have to go hungry.

GH,

FWIW, IBJAMMING is already on my extremely short ignore list. I suggest you do the same. There is no winning with folks like him. Just let him and all his bad karma go.

Yup...it's bad karma to want to keep your way of life... I'll ask you what YOU provide for the poor...above and beyond your taxes. Are you willing to give up your car? It's a carbon puker... How about that computer you're using? 500W is a lot of juice. I'll give you a mulligan on the power your grow lights are sucking up because not many of us can grow outdoors without getting ripped or getting busted. How long is your shower in the morning? Do you eat meat? These "fanatics" sac to name one...want's us to stop doing what WE like to do...so some other people can keep popping out kids and live as well as you.

And that's a bad thing? No...it's not. They are free to do whatever they can with their lives...I'm just not going to help any more. You know...we already have a 12 trillion debt...and you want to keep adding more? From where? My share is already an ungodly amount. What is it...over $100,000 per family? No more debt to send to other people. And I'm sticking to it.

You see, I'm Libertarian at heart...small government that leaves people alone...I'm surprised you don't feel the same. you like government spending money like this?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

GH,

FWIW, IBJAMMING is already on my extremely short ignore list. I suggest you do the same. There is no winning with folks like him. Just let him and all his bad karma go.

You are absolutely correct, sir.
No need wasting my time reading replies that aren't even going to relate to anything I've ever actually asserted, and no need for me to read assertions that are uneducated drivel unrelated to the topic at hand, or uneducated drivel misrepresenting the facts relating to the topic at hand.

peace and love.

 

[maryj315]

Damn it...get it straight...I don't want to KILL anyone. I want to stop sending aid overseas. I want the chips to fall where they may. Some WILL survive...the better few. And they can reconstruct their country and make it into whatever they can make it into. NO HELP from the US government...it has no constitutional right to send aid...it's not it's job.

Having the CHIPS TO FALL WHERE THEY MAY would be a serious security risk to not just America but to every other nation as well.

Given the fact you are spewing EXTREME right wing talking points I will give you an example that you can relate to.

When Israel bulldozes a neighborhood Hamas is the first one on the scene to give a helping hand. Terrorist would love for us to cut aid to country's with high rates of poverty. People are not just going to accept your solutions and go home to pass away peacefully.

The chaos and political unrest that would be unleashed around the world would be as close to Armageddon as you could get.

Our lavish American way of life comes at a price foreign aid is one of them.

Mj

 

[SpasticGramps]

LOL. This thread is drowning in progressive political utopia and I get busted on about TOU.

All I can say guys is keep believing!! Change is coming!! Hope, Hope, Hope....

I hope everyone enjoys the totalitarian global fascist distopia coming full circle. True conservatism died 100+ years ago. LOL, on your knees and begging for fascism. Hilarious. Tragically hilarious.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Spastic, you must live in your own world, because nothing you just posted has anything to do with anything any liberal has espoused anywhere in this thread... Maybe your name should have been SenileGramps.

No-one here is looking to the government for solutions or discussing potential political solutions...
This thread is about emerging tech, personal choices, education, and the science of why what is is...
The only ones who EVER bring talk of political solutions up for discussion are conservatives trying to mischaracterize the topic... Give it a rest, no one is buying your spin.

You must have just popped in to shit on the floor here, because your panties are all bunched up over your constant political rhetoric no longer flying around here.

Now, If you'd like to discuss the science, or non-governmental solutions, you are welcome to do so...

If all you're gonna do is spew rhetorical political bullshit... go find a restroom.

 

[sac beh]

Despite the fantasies of some of the off-topic posters here, this thread is about solutions. Solutions to the challenges of a changing planet threatened with resource depletion and the possibility of a future where humans and nature are increasingly antagonistic towards each other. Here's a small renewable energy project that's going a long way in Guatemala (see video):

http://www.aidg.org/incubation/quetsol.htm

 

[guest456mpy]

To be honest I'm not sure about AGW.

For sure we have GW, but I'm not positive that it is man's doing. That doesn't mean we should stop our efforts to be more responsible stewards of our planet. Just that I'm not sure we know enough about climatic cause and effect to draw a proper conclusion. There may be way more variables than we understand now.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

To be honest I'm not sure about AGW.

For sure we have GW, but I'm not positive that it is man's doing. That doesn't mean we should stop our efforts to be more responsible stewards of our planet. Just that I'm not sure we know enough about climatic cause and effect to draw a proper conclusion. There may be way more variables than we understand now.

If I point you at the information which makes the explanation of how we know that man's emissions of CO2 are a major driver of the warming, would you dig into it?

Skeptics often claim that the science of anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is not “settled”. But to the extent that this statement is true it is trivial, and to the extent that it is important it is false. No science is ever “settled”; science deals in probabilities, not certainties. When the probability of something approaches 100%, then we can regard the science, colloquially, as “settled”.

The skeptics say that results must be double-checked and uncertainties must be narrowed before any action should be taken. This sounds reasonable enough – but by the time scientific results are offered up to policymakers, they have already been checked and double-checked and quintuple-checked.

Scientists have been predicting AGW, with increasing confidence, for decades (indeed, the idea was first proposed in 1896). By the 1970s, the scientific community were becoming concerned that human activity was changing the climate, but were divided on whether this would cause a net warming or cooling. As science learned more about the climate system, a consensus gradually emerged. Many different lines of inquiry all converged on the IPCC’s 2007 conclusion that it is more than 90% certain that anthropogenic greenhouse gases are causing most of the observed global warming.

Some aspects of the science of AGW are known with near 100% certainty. The greenhouse effect itself is as established a phenomenon as any: it was discovered in the 1820s and the basic physics was essentially understood by the 1950s. There is no reasonable doubt that the global climate is warming. And there is also a clear trail of evidence leading to the conclusion that it’s caused by our greenhouse gas emissions. Some aspects are less certain; for example, the net effect of aerosol pollution is known to be negative, but the exact value needs to be better constrained.

What about the remaining uncertainties? Shouldn’t we wait for 100% certainty before taking action? Outside of logic and mathematics, we do not live in a world of certainties. Science comes to tentative conclusions based on the balance of evidence. The more independent lines of evidence are found to support a scientific theory, the closer it is likely to be to the truth. Just because some details are still not well understood should not cast into doubt our understanding of the big picture: humans are causing global warming.

In most aspects of our lives, we think it rational to make decisions based on incomplete information. We will take out insurance when there is even a slight probability that we will need it. Why should our planet’s climate be any different?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

If I point you at the information which makes the explanation of how we know that man's emissions of CO2 are a major driver of the warming, would you dig into it?

If you want to start this is an excellent summary of the information.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Emp...erprints-of-anthropogenic-global-warming.html