How many plants must you select from to not be a "hack"

[Thundurkel]

Also how many seeds can I make with this "small time pollen chuckin system lol" so I have my lil male flower cab down stairs away from my upstairs room where my flowering tent is. My ac doesn't draw air from down stairs and luckily my filter upstairs far away from the male flower cab. It's a 1.5 sq ft cab with 4 26w CFLs in it which I can upgrade to 42w ones if needed but 104w should be enough to flower out male cuttings SOG style right? I was told it would be fine by another member just curious what others say. Also I just want to dust a lower branch or 2 on a plant I'm flowering every now and then and then fully spray myself and the plant or plants with water and change clothes before coming upstairs ...

 

[B. Friendly]

So the consenses idea of a quality breeder is someone who can identify quality characteristics, while being able to isolate these characteristics and breed these desired traits in full expression through MJ. They seem to need patients, long term strategies and defined goals in mind. They should test their product for uniformity and consistancy
From thread "Do Any Breeders Create or Mostly Steal????"

 

[cannaboy]

So the consenses idea of a quality breeder is someone who can identify quality characteristics, while being able to isolate these characteristics and breed these desired traits in full expression through MJ. They seem to need patients, long term strategies and defined goals in mind. They should test their product for uniformity and consistancy
From thread "Do Any Breeders Create or Mostly Steal????"

No don't start a thread because there will be about 10 people tops not on the list,, and This the Genetic drift and the other 1 are a bit LONG now...

 

[BeAn]

we all steal, even if you went to nepal, mexico, colombia, india, thailand, lao, lebanon, iran ETC, got your breeding stock, n braught it home...you still on the back of some one else, same as if you sell me your genes, n i make seeds....to do it properly so far we have worked out what you need in this here thread:

Time machine, to go back to when it was a plant untouched by human hands, watch out for dinosaurs...
A lab, to test your shit for pointless resin profiles that change by the minute in a genepool.
A massive grow, like total number 1,000,000,000 including the progeny testing numbers(to test 3 males of one cross is 3000 plants flowered to finish, thats one line with 3 males, multiply that for more males, and other combinations...)
No ego, man cant see when he's blinded by egotism.
cheap seeds, people dont wanna pay £150 for ten of your beans, even though you had to build a time machine, grow out a thousand million seeded plants n not smoke sensi, not to mention the 20years of your life spent inbreeding.

so, if ya think about it, why fucking bother....nobody gets rich selling seed!!....(not the breeders anyway, peeps like Gypsy bless him do make millions from selling pips,, just not the makers..they too busy making the seed to sell em)

you just gotta look at the skunk phenomenom, you spend your life making a line, blood, sweat, tears in every seed...traits locked down, marriages broken becuase 'he love his plants more than me', then a Dutch bussines man mass produces your shit n completly removes you from you possition as owner of the line, makes a shitload of £££££££, on the back of your divorce and hard work....whats the point, till this shit is leagal, and sam can go Monsanto with his genes, your just leaving yourself open to be fucked in the batty crease....

 

[DocLeaf]

Personally we breed for ourselves,, our own interests at the time and the whole experiment in breeding,, and to share the results with friends Without this we'd be lost...

Once upon a time,,, we went down the "selection" route,, (1:200) and to be honest it wasn't half as much fun as stumbling on or being donated a male from friends,, and already having a nice female (maybe from friends again) to rub it onto in the garden and make seeds from. These seeds hold the most love and positive karma!

Every man (and woman) do dem thing a little way different! And jah bless that,, otherwise we'd all be seed sowing clone rooting robots,,, individualism is a GOOD thing,, remember,, that's what makes us all real !

Number crunching is for statisticians and accountants,, not real dope growers IMO!

 

[Hrpuffnkush]

It took humans "hacking" Marijuana since it was dicoverd in general to get it where it is now! When profit or ego comes in to play that's a different "hack" category

 

[osoloco69]

It doesn't take a whole lot to breed good seeds. I knew a lazy fat redneck gal who started some NL seeds from a pack from the dam. She had whitewidow x silverhaze, grunk, HS x ISS, wonderberry, bubblegum, and AK. She was too lazy to move her plants to get to the male. She ended up with a shoebox of seeds. Myself and a few friends popped many seeds and there were some good genes in there. The NL added frosting to everything, shortened them up, and was overall a very nice cross. If it weren't for the unfortunate mowing of a field there would have been many pictures to prove this. The few that were alive enough to get cuts from were taken indoor and grown out. The NL x (HSxISS) went to asheville but the driver was so high that he thought it was the NLxAK. It is still a very highly prized cut out there. The NL grunk was taken by a few people who thought that it was frostier, stronger, and heavier yielding than the grunk. The NLxAK was one that didn't make it and it was by far the winner of the whole lot and had huge frosty stinky colas on it when the mower visited. The NLxWidowHaze was the real freak of the lot. It was cloned and was actually a 45 day haze. It had the full hazy flavor, the haze look, and a descent haze high. It didn't have the yield tho, but with it having 80% cloudy trichs at 45 days it was a northern growers outdoor dream for early haze. I don't know what ever happened to those. Almost every seed that was popped turned out to be something that was worth keeping. I moved and lost touch with the grower, but I'm sure she still has half a shoebox of seeds left. I kept telling her that I would put them into packs for freebies from the boutique but she said she didn't want the heat that comes with being a known breeder. I don't care if you call her a hack, as her strains were top notch. I personally believe that it happened because she had a plethora of nice females, and the NL is so inbred that the males tend to be very similar in what they will throw.

 

[bicycle racer]

all breeders work off the work of someone else people have been selectively breeding plants for thousands of years. in any industry people are inspired or get ideas from others work its just the way it is. this applies to art music sport really everything. as for numbers used in breeding projects the truth is the huge majority of breeders lie about numbers used in selection testing and development. when new ibls and back crosses are available every month it really makes you wonder. sometimes great things come from pollen chucking which i have no problem with. i just wish there was more truth from breeders about what was involved in making there offerings and fairer prices. people get $ on the mind and then unscrupulous practices begin this industry is not regulated so all you really have to go is peoples word.

 

[TLoft13]

tagged

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"Once upon a time,,, we went down the "selection" route,, (1:200) and to be honest it wasn't half as much fun as stumbling on or being donated a male from friends,"
Here Doc is really getting to the heart of the matter on selective pressure with numbers and how the community is improving it en masse; Large size single 'pro breeder' grows VS immense seedbatches distributed and grown out by the community. Obviously, if I donate 1K Cherry Bomb seeds to the server fund and they're grown out in various gardens around the world, there is a better chance that a truly great cut of CB will be found by someone somewhere, than if i grow out the usual 40-60. If the price paid by each individual is high, as with Jack Herer genes, there's even a higher chance that select cuts will be saved from each grow, and compared in the clone wars that ensue.

Also, earlier in the thread Doc posted this totally accurate picture of a hack;
"- inbreeding to F2's then claiming another breeders genetics as your own
- crossbreeding established genetics and marketing them under another genetic name
- misinforming growers about genetics
- not paying any acknowledgement or credit to the parental breeders."
What Doc is saying, to my mind, is that TRUTH is the real currency of any breeder, at any level of the game. People who plan to deceive, or hide their breeding methods and pedigrees are doomed from the start.

People throw the concept of selection from large groups around without actually thinking much about the reality of it. Selecting for some obvious trait that shows early, like crinkled leaf, might be possible in a 1K plant grow, but say your goals are more subtle and require drying and smoking to test? Wow, I guess I'd help you, but if we're smoking off some seedbatches I have around here, I'd say we're gonna need a bigger boat!

The fact is, batches of seeds vary. Not all seedbatches are worth looking at 1K plants, while with others it's an absolute necessity. I'm sure others with near my years of experience, and there are a few on this thread, will agree.

 

[DocLeaf]

btw.. if yo'll want a definitive answer , then the number is 132.. well between 132 and 134.. lol

Just aim "to do a good thing" ,, as Growdoc would say

 

[Thundurkel]

I'm just gonna get a 3x3 tent to run 13 plants to select out of my breeding projects also while having folks on forums growing them out and keeping detailed logs and feel I should be able to find some nice fresh hybrids... I have a good amount of seeds to pop from private breeders so I feel I will get some nice shit to play with which is ....

Blue Dream x Crystal Trident
Blue Razz x Crystal Trident
Purple Urkle x Crystal Trident
Afwreck x Crystal Trident
Chem91 BX1 out crossed to White Russian before it was crossed back to the 91
Afgooey x Appalachia
Sweet Tooth#4 x Blueberry Skunk BX1

and I also have a strain I'm a tester for called Tombstone which I don't know the genetics of just know it has a secret Mendocino Purple Indica....

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Heh, 133. What's that Doc, our years of experience added together?

 

[DocLeaf]

There's no exact number,, we've grown, selected and crossed seeds from 1 in 1 matings and 1 in 200 matings,,, grown plants from 1 in 10,000 matings,, and the results didn't much differ.

For the future,, and breeding stocks,, then it's always best to keep things open (LOTS of males and some females). Ideally more males than females,, crazy as it sounds (and few breeders do that) Typically the faster males get used,, which bottlenecks things down further... especially with sativa species.

Regardless of numbers the male plants are the important part IMO/E.

Hope this helps

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I never understood why people put so much selective pressure on males. Use many, pretty much always.

Why do you think your results didn't differ Doc?

 

[beta]

.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Unless it's a strictly open pollination aimed at capturing all the genetic diversity I don't recommend no selection. But I also don't really recommend culling more than half the males.

We could argue with the Bro's Grimm and their methods but it'd be pretty off topic.

Plant numbers not to be a "hack"? Well it takes about 2000 individuals to capture the full allelic series in a line. If you're trying to OP and maintain diversity the more the merrier. And if you're trying to make strong selections and clean up a line/family you still want to select from a large number of individuals. Personally, I wouldn't even consider a line investigated until I've popped over 100. But the numbers game is very dependent on the goals needed to be achieved.

 

[RollmeoneKenobi]

Awesome thread Thurdurkle thanks to GFH, Doc leaf, CHimera, Sam, and Rick for all the input.

 

[englishrick]

my pleasure bro

 

[*mistress*]

So lately it's been bugging me seeing and hearing folks on here and other forums called hacks and pollen chuckers and those strains are what's fucking up the community ect. I've seen what can be done and read the story's about how certain elites were made and found and I believe you truly don't need to select from 100's of plants to be a successful breeder and to find keepers. I feel one could use a base of 20 or less even and be able to lock down certain traits over time with selective breeding ect how do you all feel about this? It'd be great to hear from the breeders here and testers cuz I have no problem testing new gear if the parents used were good and I'll probably find some gems and find non keepers too. Just curious what makes one a hack cuz I saw it asked in another thread but didn't want to get that one of track so figured it'd be good to discuss...

~10:1 ratio.... bagsead, breeders, tests, etc...

Chemdawg 101

According to chemdog, one... was seedless and the other had 13 seeds.

...

In ’91, chemdog popped the first 4 seeds. From these seeds, one male was found and disposed of (chemdog was young, you can’t blame him). The 3 females were labeled ‘chemdawg’ (now ’91 chemdawg), ‘chemdawg a’ (now chemdawg’s sister), and ‘chemdawg b’. In '01, chemdog and his girlfriend attempted to germ 3 more seeds, labeled ‘c’, ‘d’, and ‘e’. the ‘e’ seed never germinated, ‘c’ turned out to be junk (according to chemdog), and chemdawg ‘d’ was the keeper. In '06, 'chemdog' and 'joebrand' reunited and joe was given 4 of the last 6 beans: Chemdawg phenos 1-4, '4' being the chosen keeper. Joe thought the '4' was the best representation of the original and thus dubbed it the 'reunion pheno'. Chemdog still has two seeds left in his stash.

to H&L for the thread.