feminized plant used for making seed
- Thread starter angel4us
- Start date
- Status
x 
x 10000000000000000
hay,,,,hooz and darwin,,,what do you think about my thoughts on "Genetic load"?
lee,,,,,im not gona tell you your wrong,,,,but i will tell you this,,,,,people who study genetics are saying very diferent things to you!!,,,an i mean this with the upmost repect ,,,this includes some of the best teachers,,,,real teachers from big uni`s dissagree with you!,,,,,,,,,what the fuk am i supposed to think bro?,,,am i supposed to abandon all my teaching an reading to side with you?,,,[with all due respect]
please tell me what are you afraid of?,,,,,,,,,,,"hermis`s"?,,,,,,how would you feel if you found out the only reason female plants will produce viable polen is because guys who use males and un-stress-tested females perpetuate the trait
i honestly dont see what yor afraid of lee,,,,,,,the road to diocity starts with sterility,,,dont you agree?
lee,,,,,im not gona tell you your wrong,,,,but i will tell you this,,,,,people who study genetics are saying very diferent things to you!!,,,an i mean this with the upmost repect ,,,this includes some of the best teachers,,,,real teachers from big uni`s dissagree with you!,,,,,,,,,what the fuk am i supposed to think bro?,,,am i supposed to abandon all my teaching an reading to side with you?,,,[with all due respect]
please tell me what are you afraid of?,,,,,,,,,,,"hermis`s"?,,,,,,how would you feel if you found out the only reason female plants will produce viable polen is because guys who use males and un-stress-tested females perpetuate the trait
i honestly dont see what yor afraid of lee,,,,,,,the road to diocity starts with sterility,,,dont you agree?
yeah genetic load is a resulting lower average genotype fitness for a population. load can be caused through mutation or selection it seems, when deleterious mutations arise or certain genotypes are selected against (at a disadvantage) to other genotypes in populations the load is increased thus lowering the fitness of the overall population, or average genotype from what i gather. so there are many factors that can attribute to this, including poor breeding techniques (ie, simply selecting poor quality individs to breed with/outcross/inbred with), outcrossing (this can also lead to individuals who are less fit than either parent), inbreeding (build up of deleterious recessive alleles = loss of vigour/mutants etc), etc etc.... so it makes sense that a population that can increase its variation through F/M and F/F crossing as opposed to populations that would only use one or the other, and thus have subsequently fitter individuals to be selected for naturally/artificially leading to an overall increased fitness and decreased load. anyway yeah i dunno if that makes sense to you, it did in my head (i just wikied a few things and read up on it a bit but that's what i gather the basics are), there're many factors affecting things, lowering your options though by only doing one or the other when it comes to breeding is definitely a bad idea in the long run and you'll have to face more issues and overcome them if you do so i'd say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_load
that's it, at the end of the day, things are the way they are whether you like it or not, whether you currently understand them or not, cannabis has evolved its complex system of reproduction over millions of years it's been changing, but all along has been changing for the better. natural selection is never going to make it worse than it currently is, it only works to improve organisms and their survival because of survival of the fittest! you can keep screaming until you're blue in the face but it won't change reality mate. even if you convince yourself the lie is true, at the end of the day it's still a lie
straintester
Member
I've had no problem doing this either
That idea that hermie's come from fem seeds is really getting old
Fem seeds have come a long way over the years
I think that people that always manage to get hermie's on their plants , just aren't good growers
That idea that hermie's come from fem seeds is really getting old
Fem seeds have come a long way over the years
I think that people that always manage to get hermie's on their plants , just aren't good growers
Inbreeding depression is a natural mechanism, but I don't know if we can compare self preserving plants and mammals.
I've had no problem doing this either
That idea that hermie's come from fem seeds is really getting old
Fem seeds have come a long way over the years
I think that people that always manage to get hermie's on their plants , just aren't good growers
exactly... so called "hermies" exist in probably 99% of male and female cannabis plants, and M/F matings definitely don't specifically decrease this already HUGE frequency... fem seeds don't claim to reduce it either, and will never be able to completely remove monoecy from its females because it's required in order to create feminized seeds... so it is selected for in a way, however there're different levels of monoecy, as i and many have said many times before, there're those who throw nanners under normal happy/perfect conditions all the way i'm sure to those who never throw nanners even under the worst conditions. there'll be plants who are specifically sensitive to light regime screw ups, ph/nute stress, and chemical stress etc, it's not all for one and one for all. people who implement chemical stresses to create fem seeds are selecting for (YES positive selection) plants that turn "hermy" from these chemicals, but how many people use these chemicals without trying to get "hermies"???? NONE the average grower ain't going to use them, so if these plants are only selected for those who react to these chemicals, and the average grower grows under good conditions and never uses the chemicals, they shouldn't have any issues at all... the same as if they grew out regular seeds?????????
S
Silence
whos playing Bill Murray? as this place is like groundhog day.
S
Silence
When inbreeding you lose vigor no ifs no buts its a fact... regardless of M/F or F/F
show me the evidence that it's so cut and dry. inbreeding is a relative concept, and there are different levels at which a plant or any organism can be inbred.
S
Silence
sure you can take lines (siblings) both at F8 and breed them from different pools to try and keep the fitness going, this will be short lived though.. so random mating can jig things about to an extent.. but then if you are moving a line to a certain point for certain traits this is not what you want as you are defeating yourself... breed "true" F1s for vigor
look up the Wahlund effect
wahlund effect is referring to a reduction in heterozygosity so yes i get what you mean. hence why so many breeders and seed creators create so many hybrids / outcrosses. though i'd say issues with vigor loss etc are going to be indirectly and directly correlated with heterozygosity levels, in that there will be some populations with lower heterozygosity than other populations, but that still have more vigor than the other. some genotypes will be more vigorous than others. inbreeding may affect vigor in later stages, but IBLs aren't always F8+ i'd say. and you can still introduce new genes to bring up the heterozygosity by backcrossing or outcrossing etc and then select for the traits you want again.
i get where you're coming from, it just sounds like you're suggesting ANY inbreeding = SHIT VIGOR. and it's really not that simple at all. F13s will have relatively worse vigor than F8s or F2s of the same line/strain i agree, however there's huge genetic variation in any species, and it's never so cut and dry, you can't just apply one rule to all like that to the technique of inbreeding. there's not really any other way around it though, you can't supply consistently high quality and uniform plants without using IBLs. so by not doing it, the overall quality of whatever seed you'd get wouldn't be as high in cases, so you're sorta screwed if you do screwed if you don't.
one's also able to remove a lot of bad mutations and recessive alleles by inbreeding, then backcross or outcross and inbreed again to try and get a better quality IBL i believe.
S
Silence
stagger lee
Member
Hoosier it amazes me how much my posts get to you(and your sidekicks). Not every1 is going to agree w/eachother especially on this topic. The minute I even posted on this thread you guys were all over it. Let it go dude, you've had it out for me ever since I posted the sources backing up what I was posting in wtf w/feminized thread #320 (I think)lol! If you really cared anything about learning about this shit, you wouldnt have just said those books a wrong your wrong period. You got something wrong w/picking up a book and reading it for yourself? If you think Im gonna just take your word for it instead of some1 thats put all the effort/research into publishing a book about breeding(this topic specifically) your high. Besides whats w/all the messages and constant neg rep? just because we dont agree? Come on let it go!
lee what are you scared of,,,,,,what is your point?
the road to diocity starts with sterility,,,,,
the road to diocity starts with sterility,,,,,
Whole lot of MJ books out there with bullshit facts in them.Alot of the more popular ones too.
you're looking at this like it's a personal thing, i don't know you as i'm sure hoosierdaddy doesn't either, but your stance on this whole topic wreaks of naivety mate. clearly those books are either really outdated or you've misinterpreted what they've said. i'm doing post grad work in genetics, i'm telling you you're wrong. just because a book says it doesn't mean it's gospel! which leads me to giving you the analogy of the bible... christians are always quoting that to me like anything in there is 100% true simply because it exists in an old book therefore it must be true! "the bible says it's true, therefore it has to be true because it's in the bible!".... think you need to do a little more research and learn to think scientifically mate.
D
Dalaihempy
Lots of breeders make hybrids because they don't want others to have there breeding plant stock and they also breed faster lines with long flowering lines to speed up flowering times yet trying to keep the affect of the longer flowering lines.
There are a few reasons why hybrids are made but pure lines that have been inbreed for years and i have grown many and seen many grow very well over the years with no loss of vigor lots of growers out there have selected lines they have worked and now there sons or nephews and so on are growing them that were past down that did not have lots of males used in open pollination but the healthy male of each year to pollinate the best fem each year to make fresh seed.
Reality is most on these boards have not grown pure true breeding lines things that have been grown over and over for decades.
This fem seed debate gets nasty and from 1 side no point getting all bent out of line but you guys can throw all the text books you like at people that don't support them but the facts are these.
Not one of you have grown them out generations to see there long term out comes i would be very surprised to hear any of you have inbreed them to 2nd or 3rd generation of inbreeding to its self to see what comes.
The fact the s1 seeds don't all come out like the mum is reality and the fact that hermies have and do show up in some fem seeds is reality to as is the fact males show up also.
I know that real breeders did experiment with female seeds years ago ran them generations and the findings were not good why they never offered them sure you may not see hermies 1st or even 3rd gen but once they show they just get worse every generation you don't know the affect that the process being used will cause to the plant internally mutations and the over all health of the plant do you.
GA was used now its proven by researches now that it in fact causes a reduction in THC what does the method used now to make female seeds course.
I made female seeds from a very special plant i have run for 8 years or over now i must of grown her i would say at lest 3 times a year now this plant is a freak the very first time i grew her from seed late in flower she grew out a branch from the bottom of the main stalk that had a single male flower on it i removed it and let her finish up no other male flowers showed.
Years of growing her out i saw nothing agine then while i had her in flower and was ready to be harvested something came up that caused me to leave her in flower well past her maturity point 5 weeks so instead of harvesting her at say 9 weeks i harvested her at 14 what i noticed was on a plant that produced a pound or more indoors i saw ruffly 5 single male flower sacks in 2 or 3 female flowers so i collected them and used them on a clone of her just starting to flower next to her that gave me 20 seeds.
I had them stored for some years and thort i would germ them and see what they would produce yep nil chemically produced fem seeds you see a female cannabis plant will produce natural hormones if its gone past a set point to preserve its self its called a preservation triga.
You lot are thinking hermies right WRONG all the seeds i germinated which were 18 are female and my finding to date are these.
They were uniform at the early part up until say 10 inch's 1 ft then i saw 2 Geno types both have the same leaf look and colour all the difference was the frame 1 lot had more of a sat frame the other group had closer branch and node formation.
Now there well into flower and the difference from the s1 seed to the f2 seed made by the same mum to a selected brother is huge massive in fact.
The f2s have explosive growth in veg and in flower the yield from the f2 fem was 21 or 22 oz cured tired need to look at notes but regardless its huge the s1s are showing massive loss in explosive growth lack of vigor the f2s showed no hermies and or have the s1s up till now from this female.
So i would love you so called experts to explane to me why the f2s have explosive growth in veg and in flower get the s1s do not.
Do you think it may just be that the male is a very impotent mix to the over all health of the species and that it the male in the species carries across given genetic information that is vital to the over all health to the over all health and future to this species called cannabis.
Hear is a interesting read.
Sex Determination in hemp (cannabis sativa L ) http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/19/65.pdf
There are a few reasons why hybrids are made but pure lines that have been inbreed for years and i have grown many and seen many grow very well over the years with no loss of vigor lots of growers out there have selected lines they have worked and now there sons or nephews and so on are growing them that were past down that did not have lots of males used in open pollination but the healthy male of each year to pollinate the best fem each year to make fresh seed.
Reality is most on these boards have not grown pure true breeding lines things that have been grown over and over for decades.
This fem seed debate gets nasty and from 1 side no point getting all bent out of line but you guys can throw all the text books you like at people that don't support them but the facts are these.
Not one of you have grown them out generations to see there long term out comes i would be very surprised to hear any of you have inbreed them to 2nd or 3rd generation of inbreeding to its self to see what comes.
The fact the s1 seeds don't all come out like the mum is reality and the fact that hermies have and do show up in some fem seeds is reality to as is the fact males show up also.
I know that real breeders did experiment with female seeds years ago ran them generations and the findings were not good why they never offered them sure you may not see hermies 1st or even 3rd gen but once they show they just get worse every generation you don't know the affect that the process being used will cause to the plant internally mutations and the over all health of the plant do you.
GA was used now its proven by researches now that it in fact causes a reduction in THC what does the method used now to make female seeds course.
I made female seeds from a very special plant i have run for 8 years or over now i must of grown her i would say at lest 3 times a year now this plant is a freak the very first time i grew her from seed late in flower she grew out a branch from the bottom of the main stalk that had a single male flower on it i removed it and let her finish up no other male flowers showed.
Years of growing her out i saw nothing agine then while i had her in flower and was ready to be harvested something came up that caused me to leave her in flower well past her maturity point 5 weeks so instead of harvesting her at say 9 weeks i harvested her at 14 what i noticed was on a plant that produced a pound or more indoors i saw ruffly 5 single male flower sacks in 2 or 3 female flowers so i collected them and used them on a clone of her just starting to flower next to her that gave me 20 seeds.
I had them stored for some years and thort i would germ them and see what they would produce yep nil chemically produced fem seeds you see a female cannabis plant will produce natural hormones if its gone past a set point to preserve its self its called a preservation triga.
You lot are thinking hermies right WRONG all the seeds i germinated which were 18 are female and my finding to date are these.
They were uniform at the early part up until say 10 inch's 1 ft then i saw 2 Geno types both have the same leaf look and colour all the difference was the frame 1 lot had more of a sat frame the other group had closer branch and node formation.
Now there well into flower and the difference from the s1 seed to the f2 seed made by the same mum to a selected brother is huge massive in fact.
The f2s have explosive growth in veg and in flower the yield from the f2 fem was 21 or 22 oz cured tired need to look at notes but regardless its huge the s1s are showing massive loss in explosive growth lack of vigor the f2s showed no hermies and or have the s1s up till now from this female.
So i would love you so called experts to explane to me why the f2s have explosive growth in veg and in flower get the s1s do not.
Do you think it may just be that the male is a very impotent mix to the over all health of the species and that it the male in the species carries across given genetic information that is vital to the over all health to the over all health and future to this species called cannabis.
Hear is a interesting read.
Sex Determination in hemp (cannabis sativa L ) http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/19/65.pdf
You think this is all about opinions, and agreement/disagreement on those opinions.
You are wrong. What we have been trying to teach you are not opinions, but facts.
Wise up a little bit at least. You have continued to make yourself look like a stupid school kid with an axe to grind. Thing is, the axe you bring is dull and rusted. Not to mention tiring as fuck.
Like Darwin stated, you are trying to make this a personal thing, and it just isn't going to sit well with you to measure up dicks with me, because I do read. I happen to read quite a bit. And if you think you are going to one-up me by telling me to study more, you are in for more disappointments. The main reason being that I actually understand most of the reading I do, and can comment intelligently on what I have absorbed...be my comments right wrong or indifferent, I actually have a grasp of the topic that I enter into, or I don't enter into it.
Greg Greenes book may have good in it, but for sure lots of bad or outdated. Why? Because his book is a compilation of both fact and fiction that was derived from internet boards just like this one. In fact much of his stuff is nothing more than these threads.
You also misunderstood what Clarke was writing about, and I have a very deep suspicion that you don't even possess the skills it takes to actually research a subject properly.
For certain you are a marketeers dream.
No, YOU get over it and show us you really aren't a stupid fuck that refuses to learn anything.
No point in anyone bringing text books as backup? So, the books that have been brought to the table do not back our stance? Or you refuse to even let those writings effect your opinion?
Look, you said here are the facts, then you proceed to put out some more of your speculation in the next breath.
Another miserable failure, Hempy.
I would waste more time with you, but it is apparent you don't have one fucking clue as to what you are talking about. You need to understand the basics of genetics and breeding, and it is apparent you lack very important details. Details that are important to actually grasping this topic.
There is no evidence of the male carrying any specific information that is pertinent to the health or integrity of the progeny. None.
And you have lots of reading to do just to get up to speed. Although like Stagger, you need to be able to comprehend the readings or you are wasting your time. Try not to waste ours.
- Status
