Feminized Seeds Vs Standard

[dank.frank]

Correct me if im wrong, but isn't selfing F2*?
If it is, I'd prefer good-lineage hybrids or worked lines**.

*Unless the line is stable, then it should not matter.
** F3 for recessive traits and for dominant traits exquisite selection is needed.

The first generation of a selfed plant is known as an S1.

F2 generation is an incross of the same genes. So a x a = F2

An F1 is the first filial generation of a hybrid, F2 is 2nd filial and so on.

A line that is considered an IBL (inbreed line) is most likely to be up into and past its 7th filial generation...

 

[dank.frank]

I'm curious why you talk about 7 or 8 generations, frank? I mean, why? A fem strategy doesn't require all that to get to stable numbers.
You know, your toilet paper tends not to stand up too well after a wipe or two...

IMO, you are claiming the practice a bad move yet aren't really showing us why.
Money is not the root of the practice, and that is for certain. It has merit.

Do you not think you can breed bad into a M/F strategy?

You really think the end result will be as good as pure pollen from a tested, selected, and proven male? Not a chance in hell. And I know, that you can use a studly male to do the task above. Do it enough...and you will hit inbreeding depression, sure, b/c you have removed certain genes/traits in the process...you have created a bottleneck of the gene expressions.

Fems create that bottle neck...instantly.

All in the first post, my friend, except the 7-8 generation bit. I use that as a standard the same way that breeders have for generations. A plant breed consistently for the same traits, should by all means, be an IBL or "true breeding" seed line at that point. Producing perhaps not replica plants, but plants that show VERY LITTLE TO NO phenotypical variations....



dank.Frank

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I think you will find that it is a guarantee for certain that they are all female. Only a mutation of some sort could make things otherwise.

Ahh the hoosier conundrum... I shouldn't have to point this out, but you can't say "guarantee" and "certain" and then follow it with any exceptions.

Well you could... but you shouldn't.

If it was me and it was a question of pulling males to have females less likely to be monoecious (that's for you Rick ), or running the risk of "exceptions" pollinating what could have been considered a seedless crop with more pollen from the faulty plant(s)... I'd have to say I like my chances from regular stock.

I would also like to stress that the OP was in general reference to health, sexual traits be damned.

A plant from seed is going to be as healthy if not moreso than a clone... generally speaking, either would fit the "healthy" parameter.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Cats can be born with two heads too. But I guarantee you that the next litter you have experience with, all of the kittens will be single headed phenos.
(sheesh)

If there is no Y chromosome at the 8th pair of the ten sets in cannabis, it will be a female. No if ands or buts....except for the simple fact that nature calls all bets when she wants to, and she doesn't have to tell us why.

But for all intents and purposes, a forced female pollination of another healthy female will result in all female progeny. No males. Males need a Y chromosome, yes?

And I have yet to see any evidence of a forced fem plant being any less healthy or vigorous than a regular breeding of siblings.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Hoosier please don't drag all of this shit back out of the bag.

Nobody has ever found a herm anywhere from any feminized beans.

The sun shines out their asses.

The poster was asking about GENERAL HEALTH.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

If you think it is a guarantee then obviously your are high. Of course it is a mutation...

Yeah, I'm high...but I also think I am correct. You have something that would show otherwise?

 

[Dalaihempy]

I had my coffee and i am now ready to raise your blood pressure hoosierdaddy .

You so called experts say inbreeding causes bottle necks and reduces vigor then you on the other hand think selfing a plant is a viable breeding tool well why is it because you sed it is they also sed the world was flat.

There is nothing natural about female seed production ask the Spanish growers how they feel about all the fem seeds sold in Spain now bet there happy and support your vues NOT.

What is wrong with you mate its like you feel a natural process is out dated and this new unproven method has more merit than a natural evolved process that nature fine tuned over millions of years nature does not do things for no reson.

To achieve true female seeds you need to self a true female plant and as it was sed by people working with this process pioneers in this field yet how many of these seed lines parent female plant is a true female 1 from all of them maybe.

That is why you get hermies and males expressing in fem seeds its because the female plant being chemically turned to a male to then pollinate its self is not a true female.

There is a reson why some breeders do not offer female seeds and will not do you think this concept is new ? Its not don't you think some of these real breeders tested these fem seed plants and generations later well they did and there findings are not what i am reading you go grow your fem seeds enjoy your fem seeds and once your lines finally go tranny on you go get your self reg seeds ow that is if there are any reg seeds left to get lol.

 

[tequila_sunrise]

wow I am sorry I even started this thread. Some of the info coming through is great, some not so great.

I want to start getting a collection of mothers going (3-6) and fem looked like a quick easy way to do that... I am thinking now of just getting a pack of good old regular beans.

 

[englishrick]

im sorry frank, ,,,i dont quite understand what your sayin,,,,but im sure we can figure it out together,,,



the point i was trying to make is that Ainsworth describes sex determination in Cannabis as using "an X/autosome dosage type"



but let me please expand on what ive allready said

Once recombination has been suppressed in a chromosomal region, the proto-type Y chromosome will gradually accumulate deleterious mutations by a process known as Muller's ratchet (Muller, 1964 Felsenstein, 1974)

suppression of recombination spreads to the entire Y chromosome!!,,,once recombination is suppressed around the sex determination region, an incipient Y chromosome starts to differentiate

^^^an thats just part of the evoloution of sex chromozones,,,,eventualy the Y chromosome is lost, and X-to-autosome ratio sex determination system has evolved

according to Ainsworth this has alleady happend with cannabis!!

cannabis has Heteromorphic sex chromosomes!!! (Parker, 1990),,,sex chromosomes do not appear suddenly in animals or plants. rather, it is the pair of autosomes bearing the sex determination genes that have evolved specialized features,,,,basicly the degeneration of the Y chromosome, resulting in heteromorphy that became the hallmark of sex chromosomes..

severe degeneration of the Y chromosome causes loss of function for most genes. deletion of nonfunctional DNA sequences results in shrinking of the Y chromosome in size

two major sex chromosome systems have evolved. One is the active Y chromosome system, or the XY system in which females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX),,,, while males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY),,, The other is the X-to-autosome balance system, in which the ratio of X:A chromosomes determines sex by an X chromosome counting system and the Y chromosome is dispensable.

sex chromosomes in dioecious plants evolved as a mechanism for ensuring outcrossing to increase genetic variation ,,an this "Sex specificity" has evolved via male sterile or female sterile mutations,,,,stamen and carpel development involve large numbers of genes at various developmental stages, and mutations of any of the many regulatory genes could trigger abortion or loss of function of male and/or female organs (Wellmer et al., 2004),,,,.

suppression of recombination is a pivotal event in sex chromosome evolution... without suppression of recombination, the male sterile or female sterile mutations could revert to hermaphroditism,,,


suppression of recombination spreads to the entire Y chromosome. The Y chromosome is lost, and X-to-autosome ratio sex determination system has evolved

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Just say that femmed beans are awesome and this will all go away Rick

 

[englishrick]

CrazyComposer was lovin the FFA clone years ago,,,,then i gotahold of the FFA [MassSuperskunk x OGKA] an i was shocked how intresting the blend of the 2 fem plants was,,,,i was lovin fems from then on

i was 1 of the first dudes to say I LOVE FEMS out loud,,,,,,i got slammed for it,,,,,,,tom pulled me out of the dumpster,,,

 

[englishrick]

i love the debate,,,the drama,,,id rather read ICmag than watch EastEnders,,,especialy when we have a good fem thread going,,,,i get to refine my agruments

 

[SoCalDam Genets]

Feminized

Feminized

Feminized is the way to go if you want all females!

 

[papie]

The first generation of a selfed plant is known as an S1.

F2 generation is an incross of the same genes. So a x a = F2

An F1 is the first filial generation of a hybrid, F2 is 2nd filial and so on.

A line that is considered an IBL (inbreed line) is most likely to be up into and past its 7th filial generation...

Thanks for the explanation but I think I'm right.
Imagine if we have a specimen that is the result of a cross between 2 strains.
Generally, every genetic information for every trait will look like this: Aa.
For example the White Widow. A well known hybrid.
Now imagine that this plant was selfed.
Firstly, every egg-like cell will contain half of the chromosomes, at random.
This is the same for every sperm-like cell (pollen), it will contain half of the genetics which is completely random.

Therefore, the phenotypical distribution will look like an F2.

So don't be fooled if anyone says that selfed specimens will bear seed looking like the mother.
That is not the case, except if the mother was homozygous.

 

[DocLeaf]

To add... many feminized seed lines these days are hybridized... just like this Black Jack (Black Domina x Jack Herer):

 

[dank.frank]

cool...so then all you are saying is that you agree with me...

By definition, though, your post was incorrect. An F2, is the result of taking an F1 line and taking it to the next generation by breeding parents together TWO parents (f x m) from within the F1 line.

A SELFED plant, is exactly that. The first generation of the plant, the female, hit by her OWN pollen from another stressed clone of herself, is NOT an F2. It is the S1 generation. If you were to take seeds from the S1 generation, grow them, find and select a female, pollinate her with her own pollen, you STILL don't have an F2...you would have an S2.

I'm not sure how you think you are getting pairs of alleles from one single parent.

NEVER have I said at all in these posts OR ANYWHERE on these forums that a fem seed line will give you consistent results that resemble the mother...my complaint is exactly that....THAT IT DOES NOT ACHIEVE THAT TASK. My complaint revolves around the notion that this is what this advancement would or could contribute to growing...and it does not. Now that we know it does not, we should have ABANDONED the damnable process. Instead, money hungry people decided to capitalize on the concept and have turned it into a great big lucrative money train....and all the sheep fall in line.

If I am missing something here....please feel free to explain how it is "that you are right"...although, I never stated you to be wrong, only wrote down what any text book could have told you, in regards to your comment that selfing produces an F2.

Rick - I agree about these conversations. It doesn't hone in my argument, but it does help me understand and gain more knowledge every time I am able to participate and it stays civil.


dank.Frank

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Hempy, even though you seem to have reverted back to human-like discussion, you are still missing the boat, mate. The first thing you need to do is recognize the difference between a selfing, which results in S1(selfed 1st gen involving one female plant) progeny... and feminizing, which results in R1 (reversed female 1st gen involving two female plants) progeny.

When a plant brings pollen to the mix, be it a true male or a forced female, it brings with it ten sets of chromosomes. When these twenty sets of chromosomes from the two plants meet up, a mixing, or recombination, of all the genes takes place and is shaken out in the resulting seeds. The resulting seeds will be given different variations of that remixing that when on, and each of them will have their own set of ten chromosome pairs.
I have yet to see anyone provide any evidence that there is anything detrimental that can occur by simply forcing one female to pollinate another female. The recombination of chromosomes happens exactly as it would with a M/F mating, save for the lack of Y at the eighth pair.

Selfing on the other hand can indeed create a bottleneck, as there are only two sets of the exact same genetic map to work with. So, at the mating and recombination of genes, the pool it has to use only provides half of the genetic material that a feminizing or a M/F mating would hold. This limits the recombination, and IMO it the point where vigor could possibly be lost, or reduced, due mainly to the shortage of genetic material available.

Having an understanding of the punnet square, as papie does, will go a long way to help understanding what happens with the recombination during meiosis.

 

[papie]

cool...so then all you are saying is that you agree with me...

By definition, though, your post was incorrect. An F2, is the result of taking an F1 line and taking it to the next generation by breeding parents together TWO parents (f x m) from within the F1 line.

A SELFED plant, is exactly that. The first generation of the plant, the female, hit by her OWN pollen from another stressed clone of herself, is NOT an F2. It is the S1 generation. If you were to take seeds from the S1 generation, grow them, find and select a female, pollinate her with her own pollen, you STILL don't have an F2...you would have an S2.

I'm not sure how you think you are getting pairs of alleles from one single parent.

NEVER have I said at all in these posts OR ANYWHERE on these forums that a fem seed line will give you consistent results that resemble the mother...my complaint is exactly that....THAT IT DOES NOT ACHIEVE THAT TASK. My complaint revolves around the notion that this is what this advancement would or could contribute to growing...and it does not. Now that we know it does not, we should have ABANDONED the damnable process. Instead, money hungry people decided to capitalize on the concept and have turned it into a great big lucrative money train....and all the sheep fall in line.

If I am missing something here....please feel free to explain how it is "that you are right"...although, I never stated you to be wrong, only wrote down what any text book could have told you, in regards to your comment that selfing produces an F2.

Rick - I agree about these conversations. It doesn't hone in my argument, but it does help me understand and gain more knowledge every time I am able to participate and it stays civil.


dank.Frank

I think we are on the same line here, I just meant that I was right in my head. I only worded it wrong. S1 is indeed not F2, but it does resemble F2 if the mother was an F1 hybrid.

Hempy, even though you seem to have reverted back to human-like discussion, you are still missing the boat, mate. The first thing you need to do is recognize the difference between a selfing, which results in S1(selfed 1st gen involving one female plant) progeny... and feminizing, which results in R1 (reversed female 1st gen involving two female plants) progeny.

This is exactly what I meant, and it is one of the reason why I dislike fem seeds. I never see if its S1 or R1.
Another reason is that I like my males, no homo.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

papie, I would imagine that a commercial breeder who knows whats up will only provide a true S1 of a clone only that has no male available. Since selection must still be made, even with a S1 mating, it makes no sense to use a single fem and bottleneck the line.
I can't imagine a knowledgeable breeder using a single female to produce a commercial fem bean line.

If we see Bubba, or some other clone only hybrid in a fem bean, you can bet they are either S1 or complete bullshit.

 

[englishrick]

When a plant brings pollen to the mix, be it a true male or a forced female, it brings with it ten sets of chromosomes. When these twenty sets of chromosomes from the two plants meet up, a mixing, or recombination, of all the genes takes place and is shaken out in the resulting seeds. The resulting seeds will be given different variations of that remixing that when on, and each of them will have their own set of ten chromosome pairs.
I have yet to see anyone provide any evidence that there is anything detrimental that can occur by simply forcing one female to pollinate another female.

The recombination of chromosomes happens exactly as it would with a M/F mating, save for the lack of Y at the eighth pair.

M/F or XY recombination is a totaly diferent story to XX recombination,,,,,,,the Y chromozone is fixed!!,,,the Y chromozone will not recombine,,!!!

the Y chromosomes have evolved from the suppression of recombination at the sex determination locus

supression of recombination is a pivotal event in sex chromosome evolution,,,

the typical features of young sex chromosomes are suppression of recombination at and around the sex determination locus and moderate degeneration of the male-specific region...

once recombination is suppressed around the sex determination region, an incipient Y chromosome starts to differentiate by accumulating deleterious mutations, transposable element insertions, chromosomal rearrangements, and selection for male-specific alleles