YOUR GARDEN IS NOT ORGANIC...

[DARC MIND]

i remember asking the same question lazyman but i dont think it takes less labor to grow organic crops....
i was told ther prices are up because of the many certifications to be organic, plus chemical agriculture is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer through the government, whereas organic farmers get litttle to no help..The consumer actually pays three times when they buy intensively farmed food. Firstly, they pay for ther bunk poor diet (rising cases of asthma, cancers, heart disease and dietary disorders ). Next, they pay for the same food through their taxes, as modern farming is subsidised through the tax system. Thirdly, the consumer pays again to clean up the damage to the environment caused during the growing and the raising of the food.

 

[xmobotx]

I totally agree with you, but the way I look at it is that it's better than business are promoting sustainable and organic methods, even if it's just to make a profit, rather than marketing chemicals or other potentially harmful substances.

Now if only we can get people to stop buying Scott's and Monsanto products.....

i remain concerned that marketing buzz will prompt corps to press the gov for lessened standards -allowing them to feed society the same products as before w/ natural/organic sounding tags (for marketing purposes)

its easy to see the influence this trend has had. safeway has remodeled their stores w/ all earth tones for instance (around here) similar use of color and branding makes many products appear similar to natural/organic when they are in fact not.

not so much an issue for the readers and reasonably intellectual people. but, many do fall for these quirky tricks. -even intellectuals

 

[Clackamas Coot]

i remain concerned that marketing buzz will prompt corps to press the gov for lessened standards -allowing them to feed society the same products as before w/ natural/organic sounding tags (for marketing purposes)

its easy to see the influence this trend has had. safeway has remodeled their stores w/ all earth tones for instance (around here) similar use of color and branding makes many products appear similar to natural/organic when they are in fact not.

not so much an issue for the readers and reasonably intellectual people. but, many do fall for these quirky tricks. -even intellectuals

Your fears/concerns have already been manifested beginning about 5 years ago.

The biggest fish in the pond is Walmart and what they're trying to accomplish by skirting around the laws.

It may work. It's working now and may get worse.

CC

 

[xmobotx]

so wal-mart's "all natural" veggies aren't "all natural?"

say it isn't so

 

[tribe]

I'm so fucking organic that...

When I smoke my bud, I use a flame created by the strike of a lightning bolt. Yes, this limits when and where I can smoke, but it wouldn't be Organic otherwise!

Or if you want to spark up between storms... FLINT

Buddha bless mother natures tool kit

Shoulda made this thread a poll (what people aim for) - 1.organic 2.not-organic 3. mixed 4. don't give a shit.

no synthetics or chem for me, but I grow indoors so i guess i'm a 3

 

[redneck shogun]

Wal-mart goes as far as to say that they are an environmentally responsible company and they throw around the word sustainability repeatedly. However they choose to apply those terms in their own context. I can't say they could do more and stay within their profitability with their current business model. Their model is built on giving customers the cheapest priced product if they can. If they can't do it then they will try to think outside the box to find a way to keep product priced low to sustain their margins. Unfortunately at this time I don't think they are willing to think very hard to give a "greener" product and maintain their margins. Which is unfortunate because I believe where there is a will there is a way.

 

[dev0n]

Or if you want to spark up between storms... FLINT

Hey I only spark up a bowl when the nematode visions tell me to, and then I cut off a guy's head and put an elephant's head on it and put a flame from a naturally-occurring forest fire in his trunk and light from that, cuz nothing is more organic than having GANESH SMOKE ME OUT!

 

[treefrog]

I work on an organic farm (biodynamic) and lets just say that I don't need any additional exercise, lol. Those of us who work it year round are lean and ripped, because there is a crazy amount of labor involved. We hire kids around 20 - 24 years old to help and they can barely hang. At the end of the day they seem even younger from all the whining!

True organic food is worth the additional cost.
I would never buy anything "organic" from Walmart, and fortunately don't have to.

 

[grapeman]

Lazyman

The main reason is that demand exceeds supply.[cite]

The next factor up is the issue of logistics. Fresh produce falls into 3 categories for this limited discussion, i.e. conventional, transitional and organic. The terms are obvious as to their meanings.

California is the largest producer of fresh produce in the US followed up (depending on the specific commodity) by Florida. Unless there's a hurricane that year. Then factor in Mexico and their National Market.

Conventional produce grown in California's Salinas Valley ("The Salad Bowl of America") moves to the East Coast as full truck loads (known as FT or FTL) because you have to get the truck loaded quickly and effeciently and moving East to insure that the product will be received and accepted at destination.

Organic and transitional are generally shipped as less than truckload (LTL) which is a much higher rate. Loads which consist of more than a single pick-up point are called 'mixers' and the problem arises in that packing sheds are not the most well run operations. Waiting for 4 or 5 hours to get your 5 or 6 pallets is not out of the norm. Depending on the commodity you can either haul 22 or 24 pallets (again depending on the commodity) meaning that you can spend a couple of days getting the full load on before you're ready to roll. This means you now need a team to get the product into NYC.

Part of this is that organically grown produce is picked ripe unlike conventionally grown produce. Tomatoes are a good example. At the wholesale level, there are no tomatoes that are picked ripe. They're picked green and then gassed with ethylene gas both in transit and at destination in the gassing chambers where produce like bananas, avocados and especially tomatoes have gas applied to bring them up to color or to actually ripen them in the case of avocados.

All of this again depends on where you live. On the I-5 corridor that runs from Mexico up into Canada where the majority of produce is grown and especially organically grown produce, the prices are fairly comparable. Again depending on the commodity.

A head of organic romaine lettuce is going to be less expensive in Portland, Oregon than in Zanesville, Ohio regardless of the logistic costs involved.

RE: Hydroponics

If the dismal business of B.C. Hot House is representative of the greenhouse/hydroponic produce industry, then it's a doomed failure. B.C. Hot House has a huge operation in British Columbia - about 250 miles from Portland. The landed cost of their tomatoes, bell peppers and cucumbers is higher than organically grown produce out of Baja Mexico which is over 1,250 miles from Portland.

Hydroponically-grown produce hasn't and won't live up to the promises made in 1938 by the researchers. The set-up costs involved are astronomical and the ROI is dismal. Which probably explains why B.C. Hot House sources a good deal of their produce out of Mexico like everyone else.

BTW - B.C. Hot House is the largest greenhouse/hydroponic produce operation in North America. If they can't pull it off then how will Billy Bob Eddie Joe Bodine down in Hog Trough, Mississippi going to put this deal together and make a profit?

CC

WTF? How do you know so much about my produce business?
LOL

 

[HappynPeaceful]

Lazyman

The main reason is that demand exceeds supply.[cite]

The next factor up is the issue of logistics. Fresh produce falls into 3 categories for this limited discussion, i.e. conventional, transitional and organic. The terms are obvious as to their meanings.

California is the largest producer of fresh produce in the US followed up (depending on the specific commodity) by Florida. Unless there's a hurricane that year. Then factor in Mexico and their National Market.

Conventional produce grown in California's Salinas Valley ("The Salad Bowl of America") moves to the East Coast as full truck loads (known as FT or FTL) because you have to get the truck loaded quickly and effeciently and moving East to insure that the product will be received and accepted at destination.

Organic and transitional are generally shipped as less than truckload (LTL) which is a much higher rate. Loads which consist of more than a single pick-up point are called 'mixers' and the problem arises in that packing sheds are not the most well run operations. Waiting for 4 or 5 hours to get your 5 or 6 pallets is not out of the norm. Depending on the commodity you can either haul 22 or 24 pallets (again depending on the commodity) meaning that you can spend a couple of days getting the full load on before you're ready to roll. This means you now need a team to get the product into NYC.

Part of this is that organically grown produce is picked ripe unlike conventionally grown produce. Tomatoes are a good example. At the wholesale level, there are no tomatoes that are picked ripe. They're picked green and then gassed with ethylene gas both in transit and at destination in the gassing chambers where produce like bananas, avocados and especially tomatoes have gas applied to bring them up to color or to actually ripen them in the case of avocados.

All of this again depends on where you live. On the I-5 corridor that runs from Mexico up into Canada where the majority of produce is grown and especially organically grown produce, the prices are fairly comparable. Again depending on the commodity.

A head of organic romaine lettuce is going to be less expensive in Portland, Oregon than in Zanesville, Ohio regardless of the logistic costs involved.

RE: Hydroponics

If the dismal business of B.C. Hot House is representative of the greenhouse/hydroponic produce industry, then it's a doomed failure. B.C. Hot House has a huge operation in British Columbia - about 250 miles from Portland. The landed cost of their tomatoes, bell peppers and cucumbers is higher than organically grown produce out of Baja Mexico which is over 1,250 miles from Portland.

Hydroponically-grown produce hasn't and won't live up to the promises made in 1938 by the researchers. The set-up costs involved are astronomical and the ROI is dismal. Which probably explains why B.C. Hot House sources a good deal of their produce out of Mexico like everyone else.

BTW - B.C. Hot House is the largest greenhouse/hydroponic produce operation in North America. If they can't pull it off then how will Billy Bob Eddie Joe Bodine down in Hog Trough, Mississippi going to put this deal together and make a profit?

CC

If you wrote a book I would read it

 

[Clackamas Coot]

WTF? How do you know so much about my produce business?

LOL

grapeman

For about 8 years I was a produce broker for a company based in the Pacific Northwest. I was the one in the organization responsible for getting trucks under our loads.

By 9:00 AM on a typical Monday morning I would have assigned 30+ loads picking up and down the I-5 corridor as well as Yuma, Nogales, Chula Vista, Calexico, et al. for movement into warehouses in Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake City, etc.

And then there were the mango loads out of Nogales into NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. Over 500 loads a year just on mangoes. Did you know that mangoes are the most eaten fruit in the world? Followed closely by bananas.

Interesting business - what with Dole, Sunkist, T & A, Fresh Express, produce packers, brokers, distributors, dealers, growers - blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then there's the boys at PACA and PMA - they're always a fun group to play with, eh?

Glad it's part of my history - to say the least.

CC

 

[xmobotx]

yeah clack - write a book

 

[guest2012y]

yeah clack - write a book

Or at least record one on an audio file...that's easier,faster,etc.

 

[grapeman]

grapeman

For about 8 years I was a produce broker for a company based in the Pacific Northwest. I was the one in the organization responsible for getting trucks under our loads.

By 9:00 AM on a typical Monday morning I would have assigned 30+ loads picking up and down the I-5 corridor as well as Yuma, Nogales, Chula Vista, Calexico, et al. for movement into warehouses in Portland, Seattle, Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake City, etc.

And then there were the mango loads out of Nogales into NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. Over 500 loads a year just on mangoes. Did you know that mangoes are the most eaten fruit in the world? Followed closely by bananas.

Interesting business - what with Dole, Sunkist, T & A, Fresh Express, produce packers, brokers, distributors, dealers, growers - blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then there's the boys at PACA and PMA - they're always a fun group to play with, eh?

Glad it's part of my history - to say the least.

CC

If you moved grapes, chances are you picked up at my plant a few times.

 

[xmobotx]

if you moved pumpkins or rhubarb, i have a pretty good idea where a chunk of those came from too

small world?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Pacific Coast Fruit, United Salad, Botsford & Goodfellow - ring any bells?

LOL

CC

 

[grapeman]

Pacific Coast Fruit, United Salad, Botsford & Goodfellow - ring any bells?

LOL

CC

Pacific Coast Fruit, yes.

small world my man.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Grapeman

Here's a little bit of inside information for your amusement.

Pacific Coast Fruit is owned by Emil & Kathleen Nemarnik and their son, David, runs the operation as his parents are pretty old.

Before she was married to Emil Nemarnik, Kathleen Nemarnik was known as Kathleen Spada - the daughter of Ernie Spada who began United Salad and their food-service division, Duck Delivery. Kathleen's brother, Ernie Spada, Jr. (known around the local produce biz as 'E.J.') runs both United Salad as well as the Duck Delivery operation.

Got that so far?

Now the Graziano family has family ties to both the Spada & Nemarnik families through marriage(s). That would include both Graziano Produce as well as Graziano Food Service - seems that there was a family split several years ago between the 2 brothers.

And then there's Gatto Produce - also related to both the Nemarnik & Spada clans.

And then there's Rinella Produce (est. 1908) and everyone is related to the Rinella clan is some way or fashion.

The only non-Italian produce operation in Portland is Apple Produce which is owned by the Najdek family. There's Najdek Produce run by Anton </snerk> which was a bit much for the other 4 brothers so they broke off and formed Apple Produce.

It would make for either a sitcom or even better, a satire piece like the movie about the grape business made back in the 1980's or so. I believed it starred Carol Burnett - pretty sure about that.

CC

 

[grapeman]

Grapeman

Here's a little bit of inside information for your amusement.

Pacific Coast Fruit is owned by Emil & Kathleen Nemarnik and their son, David, runs the operation as his parents are pretty old.

Before she was married to Emil Nemarnik, Kathleen Nemarnik was known as Kathleen Spada - the daughter of Ernie Spada who began United Salad and their food-service division, Duck Delivery. Kathleen's brother, Ernie Spada, Jr. (known around the local produce biz as 'E.J.') runs both United Salad as well as the Duck Delivery operation.

Got that so far?

Now the Graziano family has family ties to both the Spada & Nemarnik families through marriage(s). That would include both Graziano Produce as well as Graziano Food Service - seems that there was a family split several years ago between the 2 brothers.

And then there's Gatto Produce - also related to both the Nemarnik & Spada clans.

And then there's Rinella Produce (est. 1908) and everyone is related to the Rinella clan is some way or fashion.

The only non-Italian produce operation in Portland is Apple Produce which is owned by the Najdek family. There's Najdek Produce run by Anton </snerk> which was a bit much for the other 4 brothers so they broke off and formed Apple Produce.

It would make for either a sitcom or even better, a satire piece like the movie about the grape business made back in the 1980's or so. I believed it starred Carol Burnett - pretty sure about that.

CC

do you speak of the raisin satire based in Fresno CA (the shit hole of the world)? I think I remember that TV program.

The Giumarra clan in Edison (Bakersfield CA) has a simular story.

I think all these Italian produce operations began with "an offer they couldn't refuse", as "families" moved their money from the streets of NY to legit operations out west.
LOL

 

[xmobotx]

lol grape, i hadn't considered that

the folks i know used to basically own fife