Input on these stuggling Widows?

[ericcalif]

After a few grows under my belt, (some diesel clones and some bagseed) I wanted to try some of these great strains out there. I got one order with a few different strains to keep me in stock of a few different hybrids to experiment with.
The first beans I popped were these White Widow fems from Seedsman Seeds.


These were them after they popped, about 10 days or so after they were planted. They took longer than others to pop, the little one literally struggled to get out of the dirt. I left them in cups for awhile hoping to get them established, getting a root structure. The soil was left over FF Happy Frog from a previous grow, mixed with some seedling starting peat. My thinking is to start them in mild soil.
For about 2 weeks they sat there just as you see... not growing, stretching, no new leaves, etc. Pretty soon they looked like they were starting to die. So I transplanted them into the tubs they were going to go to eventually, hoping they would survive.
Here they are about 10 days after that.


As a comparison, here they are next to my purple indi clones that were put in soil nearly 2 weeks after the seeds. Same exact soil and conditions. The tubs are filled with FF Happy Frog, a lil extra perlite, and older mild soil on the top few inches for a mild start until the plants are really established. I'm pretty much doing what has worked well in the past.



So I'm dragging on but... here's my questions. Do you think I just got lame seeds? I don't think I've made a major mistake but I don't have years of experience and I know I could have. This same routine worked just fine for my last round of seeds. They sprouted and just took off.
The idea of fem seeds appeals to me but I'm starting to wonder if they are a bad idea as some people feel. They seem like weaklings, struggling and unhealthy.

Feel free to throw in your perspectives and experience.

 

[Noobian]

Can't speak to the seedsman seeds, but I grew Nirvana WW and it was an extremely slow vegger. That could have been my fault but I don't think so because I used the same soil with some other bagseeds I had and they grew great. I think those WW are just slow veggers. Have you been giving them high N food?

 

[ericcalif]

Can't speak to the seedsman seeds, but I grew Nirvana WW and it was an extremely slow vegger. That could have been my fault but I don't think so because I used the same soil with some other bagseeds I had and they grew great. I think those WW are just slow veggers. Have you been giving them high N food?

No, no food yet as they're seedlings. They seem to be hanging in now that they are moved, I'm thinking another week and I'll give them a lil bit.

How did yours turn out? I got mine via Attitude.

 

[ericcalif]

 

[HempKat]

Well the first thing that catches my attention as possible problems is that I don't see any sign of drainage holes in those cups the plants started in. Marijuana doesn't like to stay wet for long periods. In soil it's happy when after a watering it's dry and needing a new watering every 2-3 days. If the roots stay too wet for too long they get kind of smothered and/or root rot can set in. Now the smothering would account for the almost non existent growth and you said after a while they looked like they were dying so you transplanted them. Well that look of death might have been root rot starting to take hold. You transplanted though and that probably got rid of the problem but again they're back in an environment where the roots will stay wet for long periods (because the tubs are so big). If so then the plants should hang on but not do much of anything until a more robust root system developes.

Now as for could it be the seeds? I suppose it could, it's not unheard of for bad seeds to go out sometimes. If the company is decent they should be willing to either reimburse you some of your money or send out replacement seeds (more likely). Provided of course they don't determine it was your fault. When people talk of Feminized seed being bad it's not because it grows slowly or poorly but rather that to make feminized seed you have to deliberately stress the plant to create hermies and pollen from hermies passes on the hermie tendency to the seed.

 

[ericcalif]

Well the first thing that catches my attention as possible problems is that I don't see any sign of drainage holes in those cups the plants started in. Marijuana doesn't like to stay wet for long periods. In soil it's happy when after a watering it's dry and needing a new watering every 2-3 days. If the roots stay too wet for too long they get kind of smothered and/or root rot can set in. Now the smothering would account for the almost non existent growth and you said after a while they looked like they were dying so you transplanted them. Well that look of death might have been root rot starting to take hold. You transplanted though and that probably got rid of the problem but again they're back in an environment where the roots will stay wet for long periods (because the tubs are so big). If so then the plants should hang on but not do much of anything until a more robust root system developes.

Now as for could it be the seeds? I suppose it could, it's not unheard of for bad seeds to go out sometimes. If the company is decent they should be willing to either reimburse you some of your money or send out replacement seeds (more likely). Provided of course they don't determine it was your fault. When people talk of Feminized seed being bad it's not because it grows slowly or poorly but rather that to make feminized seed you have to deliberately stress the plant to create hermies and pollen from hermies passes on the hermie tendency to the seed.

Hey HK thanks for your input
I didn't take shots of the bottom of the cups but yes, there are drainage holes.
On the other hand it is possible I let them stay too wet in their early days. I didn't think I did but maybe so. Your guess certainly makes as much sense as anything I've thought of.
I think I'm up to speed on dry/wet cycles. The thing I compare these to are my last seeds, which as I said sprouted and took off, same procedures used.
But.. this is the 2nd time you've mentioned the tubs as a possible negative. I'm thinking, next run I'm going to get some individual pots and maybe I should even do it for these seedlings. You certainly have more time in this than I and I wouldn't be surprised and my thinking about the tubs is all wrong.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.

 

[Noobian]

No, no food yet as they're seedlings. They seem to be hanging in now that they are moved, I'm thinking another week and I'll give them a lil bit.

How did yours turn out? I got mine via Attitude.

They turned out just fine actually, that cola in my avatar is one of the widows, and it is a nice smoking strain.

 

[HempKat]

Hey HK thanks for your input
I didn't take shots of the bottom of the cups but yes, there are drainage holes.
On the other hand it is possible I let them stay too wet in their early days. I didn't think I did but maybe so. Your guess certainly makes as much sense as anything I've thought of.
I think I'm up to speed on dry/wet cycles. The thing I compare these to are my last seeds, which as I said sprouted and took off, same procedures used.
But.. this is the 2nd time you've mentioned the tubs as a possible negative. I'm thinking, next run I'm going to get some individual pots and maybe I should even do it for these seedlings. You certainly have more time in this than I and I wouldn't be surprised and my thinking about the tubs is all wrong.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.

The tubs are fine to use, the first time I mentioned a problem you were putting multiple plants in them which isn't the best way to go unless you're sure the plants are females and will be going full term. The big problem with multiple plants in the same container is when one turns out to be a male or needs to be removed. There is also a problem of fighting for resources. If one plant takes off and grows bigger then the others, it's likely going to have a bigger rootball and will end up consuming more of the water and nutrients then the other plants which will keep them from ever being as big.

Also the first time I mentioned them I thought you were using them in a way that restricted airflow at the base of the plant.

This time around I mention the tubs because you're putting such a small plant into such a large container. If you used the guideling of watering until you saw drainage, with such a big container and such small plants, you'd probably have to wait almost 2 weeks before it needed watering again according to the lift method. So it's not the tub so much that I see as a problem this time but rather that the tub is so big compared to the plant.

If the cup has drainage holes then it shouldn't be that the plants stayed too wet, it could be but that's not as likely now. If it's not that another thing that can slow a plant down and not be so obvious is low temps. If the temps where the plants are stayed at 70 or lower, that could account for the slow growth. Although I doubt it's that at this time of year.

I know you added seedling starter mix to mellow out the Fox Farm soil but maybe you didn't mellow it enough? If so though I'd think it would still grow some and possibly show some outward signs of a problem such as nute burn. Also while it should be unlikely if your seed source was a good one, it's still possible there was a problem in the seed (bad genetics).

 

[ericcalif]

The tubs are fine to use, the first time I mentioned a problem you were putting multiple plants in them which isn't the best way to go unless you're sure the plants are females and will be going full term.

That has been the araingment since I started, with the exception of one run with seeds.

The big problem with multiple plants in the same container is when one turns out to be a male or needs to be removed. There is also a problem of fighting for resources. If one plant takes off and grows bigger then the others, it's likely going to have a bigger rootball and will end up consuming more of the water and nutrients then the other plants which will keep them from ever being as big.

Also the first time I mentioned them I thought you were using them in a way that restricted airflow at the base of the plant.

It was a good point, with those girls I've kicked up the fan speed and tried to open up the lower area a little, and added that light. It seems to have helped.

This time around I mention the tubs because you're putting such a small plant into such a large container. If you used the guideling of watering until you saw drainage, with such a big container and such small plants, you'd probably have to wait almost 2 weeks before it needed watering again according to the lift method. So it's not the tub so much that I see as a problem this time but rather that the tub is so big compared to the plant.

True. I haven't watered them like they were grown plants, just a little bit around the seedlings themselves. One thing I do think I have figured out is watering. Still figuring out nutes but going conservative, I think that's coming along as well.

If the cup has drainage holes then it shouldn't be that the plants stayed too wet, it could be but that's not as likely now. If it's not that another thing that can slow a plant down and not be so obvious is low temps. If the temps where the plants are stayed at 70 or lower, that could account for the slow growth. Although I doubt it's that at this time of year.

I don't know that they had too much cold. They're in an outbuilding, but I try to use the lights to moderate temps. They've been on at night so it doesnt get too cold. The temp monitor is in the flower box tho.

I know you added seedling starter mix to mellow out the Fox Farm soil but maybe you didn't mellow it enough? If so though I'd think it would still grow some and possibly show some outward signs of a problem such as nute burn. Also while it should be unlikely if your seed source was a good one, it's still possible there was a problem in the seed (bad genetics).

They came from Seedsman Seeds, via Attitude. I really can't judge if they're quality or not. I know they're a WW knockoff, I assume the original is still tightly held by Shanti.

I'm still thinking I should consider ditching the tubs. For reasons you mentioned, and a bonus would be easier to move around, etc.

The seeds are hanging in, the bigger one seems to be recovering and starting to go so we'll see. If not, some lessons learned.

Thanks for sharing your insight again. I'll keep ya updated and maybe other folks learn stuff along the way too.

 

[Andyo]

same here from attitude

same here from attitude

yer got my WW from attitude also i started other seed at the same time.calizahr ,blue satelite and pineapple express.
Its the seeds as all the other strains are fine .
The WW are slow some deformed leaf skinny stems theyre 4 wks old now and way behind anthing else.
Ive thrown out 6 of 20 and perseveered though there not right atall ,a few are growing out a bit .

 

[ericcalif]

yer got my WW from attitude also i started other seed at the same time.calizahr ,blue satelite and pineapple express.
Its the seeds as all the other strains are fine .
The WW are slow some deformed leaf skinny stems theyre 4 wks old now and way behind anthing else.
Ive thrown out 6 of 20 and perseveered though there not right atall ,a few are growing out a bit .

Wondering, are yours fem too?

The first thing that struck me about them is they seemed way small. I haven't grown alot but Ive seen a hellevalot of seeds. These looked like immature size, but mature husks.

Well I have a few other strains of femmed to try later down the line, (Barneys LSD, Super Lemon Haze, Moby Dick) but fortunately I don't have all my eggs in one basket. My current strains work out good and I"m beginning to learn their traits more intimately. It's all a learning curve.

 

[HempKat]

That has been the araingment since I started, with the exception of one run with seeds.



It was a good point, with those girls I've kicked up the fan speed and tried to open up the lower area a little, and added that light. It seems to have helped.



True. I haven't watered them like they were grown plants, just a little bit around the seedlings themselves. One thing I do think I have figured out is watering. Still figuring out nutes but going conservative, I think that's coming along as well.



I don't know that they had too much cold. They're in an outbuilding, but I try to use the lights to moderate temps. They've been on at night so it doesnt get too cold. The temp monitor is in the flower box tho.



They came from Seedsman Seeds, via Attitude. I really can't judge if they're quality or not. I know they're a WW knockoff, I assume the original is still tightly held by Shanti.

I'm still thinking I should consider ditching the tubs. For reasons you mentioned, and a bonus would be easier to move around, etc.

The seeds are hanging in, the bigger one seems to be recovering and starting to go so we'll see. If not, some lessons learned.

Thanks for sharing your insight again. I'll keep ya updated and maybe other folks learn stuff along the way too.

Well if you're going to stop using the tubs then maybe you might want to consider square pots. I presume some of the appeal of the tubs was a square shape which can be placed more efficiently in a grow space the round shapes would be? So if you still want that kind of efficiency then square pots should do the trick. Something like this.

http://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/single.asp?ID=4118

Now for bigger sizes you can probably find them somewhere but I like to start looking at things I buy that can be reused. For example, I have cats, the kitty litter I buy them comes in a nice big square plastic container perfect for growing your plants big.

 

[ericcalif]

Well if you're going to stop using the tubs then maybe you might want to consider square pots. I presume some of the appeal of the tubs was a square shape which can be placed more efficiently in a grow space the round shapes would be? So if you still want that kind of efficiency then square pots should do the trick. Something like this.

http://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/single.asp?ID=4118

Now for bigger sizes you can probably find them somewhere but I like to start looking at things I buy that can be reused. For example, I have cats, the kitty litter I buy them comes in a nice big square plastic container perfect for growing your plants big.

Ya that was part of the reason, also i wanted to have the square footage to lst the plants without doing the scrog thing. I poke little holes around the edge and use wire to tie and position the stems and that has worked well. I'm going to give this thought for a weekend plan. May switch them before they get any bigger.

 

[Andyo]

yes Fem

yes Fem

Wondering, are yours fem too?

The first thing that struck me about them is they seemed way small. I haven't grown alot but Ive seen a hellevalot of seeds. These looked like immature size, but mature husks.

Well I have a few other strains of femmed to try later down the line, (Barneys LSD, Super Lemon Haze, Moby Dick) but fortunately I don't have all my eggs in one basket. My current strains work out good and I"m beginning to learn their traits more intimately. It's all a learning curve.

Same again small seed,i feel that they are the same batch of seed n if so that tells me somthing going on behind the scene at attitude as mine are labelled and advertised White Widow G 13 Labs. and i got them from attitude.A

 

[Andyo]

G 13 labs fem pineapple express from attitude

G 13 labs fem pineapple express from attitude

The pineapple express i got at exactly same time are good strong fast growing .A

 

[ericcalif]

The pineapple express i got at exactly same time are good strong fast growing .A

Hmm, makes you wonder. Did the seeds look more 'normal' ? Meaning, a more regular size and healthier looking? HK has me thinking I may have mistreated them when they were little sprouts, maybe a bit too much water. Since I've transplanted them they seem to be coming back, but still slow.

 

[HempKat]

Hmm, makes you wonder. Did the seeds look more 'normal' ? Meaning, a more regular size and healthier looking? HK has me thinking I may have mistreated them when they were little sprouts, maybe a bit too much water. Since I've transplanted them they seem to be coming back, but still slow.

Well that's based on the assumption that seed distributors distribute quality products. Given that you have someone who bought the same seeds from the same source, that looked the same and grew the same, that makes a strong case for it being a bad batch of seeds.

 

[ericcalif]

Well that's based on the assumption that seed distributors distribute quality products. Given that you have someone who bought the same seeds from the same source, that looked the same and grew the same, that makes a strong case for it being a bad batch of seeds.

Hey HK
I don't know if you noticed but the seeds came from the same seedbank but different breeders. (supposedly)
Mine came from Seedsman Seeds, the others from G-13.

I'm thinking the same as you tho, not so great genetics. The point of even getting them was to get my hands on some good genetics. Oh well, I"ll let them go and see how it all comes out. As of today they're still trying to make a go of it.

 

[HempKat]

Hey HK
I don't know if you noticed but the seeds came from the same seedbank but different breeders. (supposedly)
Mine came from Seedsman Seeds, the others from G-13.

I'm thinking the same as you tho, not so great genetics. The point of even getting them was to get my hands on some good genetics. Oh well, I"ll let them go and see how it all comes out. As of today they're still trying to make a go of it.

Might as well and who knows, if those two plants ever start acting right maybe you can get some clones off of them?

BTW no I didn't notice they were from different breeders but maybe it's a problem at the distribution level? Something contaminating the storage area or something happening to them in shipping? Whatever the case, if all of the seeds of that strain that you bought act the same way, then you should contact the distributor. Most reputable ones will offer to make it right if a pack they sent out turns out to be bad.

 

[ericcalif]

Might as well and who knows, if those two plants ever start acting right maybe you can get some clones off of them?

Thats sort of what I've been thinking. Once they're mature they might be ok. We'll have to see. First, I need to get my new prob fixed, a flaky ballast. Ah well...