Dissolved oxygen in bio buckets and water temperatures

[punkp88]

Hi ic mag fellow helpers
So im running a bio bucket system with ample water fall into res
I dont use a water chiller either
room temps between 75-80
water temps between 72-77
Dissolved oxygen content is around 9ppm=8mg/l
even at night when they consume more oxygen

If my water temps get close to 80
i test the oxygen level and its still the same

Isnt the level of oxygen supposed to drop in higher water temperatures?

Or does the plant consume less oxygen in warmer water, even though the oxygen levels are high?

many thanks
P

 

[kp^]

Hello punkp88

Curious what DO meter you're using? I need to pick one up.

So lets see if I an help you....

I know that colder water "can" hold more oxygen than warmer water. This is why we want to keep our water temps cold. I keep my rez ~66-70F...

I dont use a water chiller either
room temps between 75-80
water temps between 72-77

I did not use a chiller on the first half of my BB grow, but when I read a few key tips from the man BigToke, and other BB growers I picked up a chiller for the sake of not loosing all the beneficial's in my system. My rez was in and out of 75-81.. etc.. I got a 1/4HP chiller (cost of an arm and leg ) but the chiller is needed for my space... If you can do without a chiller, than why not. If you're holding out on a chiller I would insulate your rez if its not already.

Here's one of BigToke's replies in response to rez temps, DO/Beneficial's etc. Hopefully this will answer your questions.

Would be possible to run the system at a higher temps (before plants are inserted) to 80-85 to get the system colonized faster?

BigTokes Reply:

Answer is: No!! in nature or our echo-environment the number of good-bacteria out number the bad-bacteria by the millions!! So way is there any bad-bacteria at all? The answer to this is; nature rarely supplies the perfect conditions for the good-bacteria to take over….go figure? In our Bio-Buckets we are attempting to supply that perfect hydro-environment for the air-born bacteria that causes bacterium {bio-film}, the population of various microorganisms, trapped in a layer of slime and excretion products, attached to a surface. thus giving way to the terminology of {Beneficial Bacterium} increasing your temps in your Bio-Buckets will do one to two things, 1) if temps are around 80 degrees the {BB} will begin to decrees not increase. 2) if temps get to 82 degrees and above lab results have shown that the {BB} cannot survive, in other words; you have just made your Bio-System more appetizing for the bad-bacteria than the good-bacteria, that’s not what you want!!!

I will not even get in to what this will do to your BOD’s {Biochemical Oxygen Demands,} in brief: this is the amount of oxygen (measured in mg/l) that is required for the decomposition of organic matter by single-cell organisms, brother you do know that going higher in temps lowers your 02 right? Lets not go there!!

Also this is going to cause lock-out of the COD’s {Chemical Oxygen Demands,} this is the amount of oxygen this is consumed in the exidation of organic and oxidasable inorganic matter as well, in other words; not even your nutrient solution was designed to operate in such high temps and low {BOD’s} & {COD’s}

So how do we fix this problem wanting to get an early start on things, it’s really very simple I do believe and it goes something like this:

There is this term that we use in labs that’s called {BOD5,} this is the amount of dissolved oxygen consumed in five days by Beneficial Bacterium that perform biological degradation of organic matter.

Here’s how this works: have you ever hard of {Breakpoint Chlorination} this is the addition of chlorine to water until there is enough chlorine present for disinfection of water. The thing about this is chlorine is only able to hold it’s bond with H20/water only for a certain amount of time without adding any more to it……….and that breakthrough point is around 24-hours, after this the chlorine have lost it’s hold on the H20 enough for the {BB} to begin to work on that bio-film.

I understand that most folks would like to use Bio-Catalyses to quick start there system and that’s just fine; just remember if using tap-water give 24-hours for the chlorine to reach it’s breakthrough point and after that go to it, I would recommend something like GH-Subculture or something to it’s equivalent.

Also you need to consider what is known as CFU’s {Colony Forming Units} this is a measure that indicates the number of microorganisms in water, I will not get into all of that right now, but if your not using lava rocks go get some and use them in your net-pots as your medium, also go back over the material that I have supplied it will tell you every thing in short what you need to do, btw there was a hell of a lot of time and consideration that went into the design of BigTokes Bio-Bucket System, thus I found that some of the science that went into the making of it, that some folk didn’t want to here, so I’m just giving folks what they need to know for now in the building of the system…….but every now and then I will explain in more details about this great-system.

Once again in short, every hydroponics system that is manufacture by a company used hydro-engineers to design there hydro-systems, and every hydro-engineer knows that there is one single thing he must design/build his hydro-system around, and that is the most reacting substance in the world, OXYGEN!!! Bottom line, every hydro-system is built around how well they can utilize this most precious gas, in short: every plant-cell needs it in order to stay alive, your nutrients need it in the forum of {Biotransformation} the conversion of a substance into other compounds by organisms; including bioegradation. And last but not lest your Beneficial Bacterium need it to live!! Nothing will react or live in your system without it, it is the most single important element of your system.

The short answer, you’ll just fry your plants.

Enjoy!!

 

[opt1c]

dissolved oxygen meters are very very touchy; make sure your calibration is down... i know diff chems can b used to calibrate em... u probably already have that controlled then

where are you measuring the oxygen levels?

i ran biobuckets but kept getting root rot and they took up too much vert space for my setup so i stopped

 

[turbolaser4528]

dissolved oxygen meters are very very touchy; make sure your calibration is down... i know diff chems can b used to calibrate em... u probably already have that controlled then

where are you measuring the oxygen levels?

i ran biobuckets but kept getting root rot and they took up too much vert space for my setup so i stopped

root rot huh? was light getting in somewhere? not enough flow, or o2? high water temps? im curious how this happened with bio buckets but not with the UC system you ran

 

[opt1c]

i think it was a combination of things. hard to clean parts on the biobuckets; lots of small right angles and its hard to disassemble to really scrub; especially if u had to use extra silicone or glue to stop leaks and whatnot; i think light may have gotten in on the return pipe but i covered it and still had a problem; also from leaving the lid of the garbage can cracked to allow for the air exchange necessary for the reservoir... they'd run great till it'd get towards the end of flower... happened 3 times before i left for coco and recirculating rockwool setups... probably not enough flow in the bottoms of the buckets once they got full of roots...maybe if the intake elbow was sunk to the bottom of the bucket but that'd eliminate the surface d.o. it provides... regardless its not my headache anymore

the under current was a hard sell for me; i wasn't expecting to have multiple runs with zero root issues but i'm not going to argue with my own results

one thing i don't see a lot of here are threads of people doing multiple runs with biobuckets rocking the same system year after year growing trees and sharing them with the rest of us icmaggers.

 

[turbolaser4528]

i think it was a combination of things. hard to clean parts on the biobuckets; lots of small right angles and its hard to disassemble to really scrub; especially if u had to use extra silicone or glue to stop leaks and whatnot; i think light may have gotten in on the return pipe but i covered it and still had a problem; also from leaving the lid of the garbage can cracked to allow for the air exchange necessary for the reservoir... they'd run great till it'd get towards the end of flower... happened 3 times before i left for coco and recirculating rockwool setups... probably not enough flow in the bottoms of the buckets once they got full of roots...maybe if the intake elbow was sunk to the bottom of the bucket but that'd eliminate the surface d.o. it provides... regardless its not my headache anymore

the under current was a hard sell for me; i wasn't expecting to have multiple runs with zero root issues but i'm not going to argue with my own results

one thing i don't see a lot of here are threads of people doing multiple runs with biobuckets rocking the same system year after year growing trees and sharing them with the rest of us icmaggers.

yeah thats true, seems like most are traditional hydro methods, coir, and soil.

but then again I don't see tons of Under Current tree threads either, but whatevaaaaaa



I keep searching for the holy grail of systems to produce crop after crop of high yielding plants and keep coming up empty. Coco has my eye right now though, shit is very versatile and hard to mess up.


pz

 

[Casual]

Hi Opt1c... We'll see how my BioBucket grow goes.
I'm also setting up an Ebb & Gro system for a buddy.
It'll be interesting to watch them develop at the same time.

I'm definitely interested in doing an Under Current system.
I just don't have the room for the HUGE growth, or the money
for a ton O' lights right now... maybe after this first harvest if it's worth a
shit. I'm going overkill on my pump in the BB grow so hopefully won't have root
rot issues.

Caz

 

[punkp88]

Hello punkp88

Curious what DO meter you're using? I need to pick one up.

So lets see if I an help you....

I know that colder water "can" hold more oxygen than warmer water. This is why we want to keep our water temps cold. I keep my rez ~66-70F...



I did not use a chiller on the first half of my BB grow, but when I read a few key tips from the man BigToke, and other BB growers I picked up a chiller for the sake of not loosing all the beneficial's in my system. My rez was in and out of 75-81.. etc.. I got a 1/4HP chiller (cost of an arm and leg ) but the chiller is needed for my space... If you can do without a chiller, than why not. If you're holding out on a chiller I would insulate your rez if its not already.

Here's one of BigToke's replies in response to rez temps, DO/Beneficial's etc. Hopefully this will answer your questions.




BigTokes Reply:


Enjoy!!

Heres what im using to test the oxygen
its an aquarium oxygen testing kit
www.redseafish.com

I know the beneficals start dieing off over 80
If i dont let the room get over 75
then the water temps stay within range
I also add beneficals weekly
nitromax
aquarium stores sell it and its pretty cheap
thanks

 

[punkp88]

dissolved oxygen meters are very very touchy; make sure your calibration is down... i know diff chems can b used to calibrate em... u probably already have that controlled then

where are you measuring the oxygen levels?

i ran biobuckets but kept getting root rot and they took up too much vert space for my setup so i stopped

Im checking it at the last bucket

 

[opt1c]

Hi Opt1c... We'll see how my BioBucket grow goes.
I'm also setting up an Ebb & Gro system for a buddy.
It'll be interesting to watch them develop at the same time.

I'm definitely interested in doing an Under Current system.
I just don't have the room for the HUGE growth, or the money
for a ton O' lights right now... maybe after this first harvest if it's worth a
shit. I'm going overkill on my pump in the BB grow so hopefully won't have root
rot issues.

Caz

Well fwiw i had a ten site setup with a 1800gph pump and it wasn't enough... the bio-bucket plants grow pretty tall... difference with the undercurrent is it sits on the ground... that was my main gripe with the buckets; it grew trees but they started off 3ft in the air to begin with

if u look at my under current threads and my bio-bucket threads u can see how the plants look... truth be told i'm getting larger yields off the uc system with fewer lumens than i was using with the bio-buckets and 4 fewer plants... and... when i added up the cost of everything it was more expensive than my small 6 site system

the cost of the air pump, the water pump(those big ones are extra $$), the fittings, the buckets, etc... add up pretty quick... also the difference between being able to tear down a system to buckets, seals, pipes in 30mins vs everything superglued together with silicone on top..... shit... can't even compare

lets just say that when i parted ways with my previous grow partner i gave him the bio-buckets as a parting gift... he never has and has no plans to run em... all he does now is grow to so its not for lack of interest

i'll just give u a heads up and i'm not trying to sell you anything; honestly coco is the shit but bio-buckets cost a lot of money and most of that money is connected via super-glue and silicone... when u stop using the system u can't really reuse the buckets and return or any of that stuff

tally up the cost of EVERYTHING for the bio-buckets; let us know what ur system ran u... don't include the cost of chiller or air stones/pump if u decide to use em... just the buckets and fittings from home depot or lowes or whatever... i figure if u're a plumber and they're already lying around the story is different but most people have to source these supplies... so like buckets, connectors, hoses, pump, etc.

 

[petemoss]

I've grown in hot weather with and without a chiller and can tell you that you'll likely have problems if water temps rise above 72F. Maybe if you keep room temp under 75F with air conditioning, water temps would be roughly four degrees less - about 71 and you'd be OK without a chiller. This graph may help. It's from a fish site and the minimum acceptable level shown pertains to fish in an aquarium. For plants, I'd say the min level would be closer to 9% oxygen saturation. I think that equals 9 mg/l as well as 9 ppm but I'm not sure about that.

 

[abuldur]

Correct me if im wrong.

I think the temp of a sollution is always cooler than the room its in.
If the water is not heated by some divice or another.
This might be the problem with those buket systems using submercible pumps.
They are the heating device, our ennemy.
This is why i use gravity and air pumps to move my sollution arround.
Constant recirculation can be achived in bukets by twitching the GH RDWC system to your needs.
http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/instructions/WF_Upgrade_instructions.pdf

peace

 

[Casual]

Good advice from all....

Opt1c... I agree with you on several points. Unfortunately, I've purchased everything for my biobucket setup with the exception of a few 90 degree elbows I'm going to pick up today. I built the buckets exactly as BigToke did. The more I looked at them, the more I disliked the plumbing setup. As Murphy's law usually dictates, I discovered Uniseals less than a week after I'd finished the gluing and siliconing. I bit the bullet and ordered up the Uniseals for the drain lines. Opened up the holes for the Uniseals to fit, and now have 1.25" PVC draining to the 4" PVC center pipe. I was going to leave the inlets alone. Conscience nagged at me and I said screw it and ordered the 3/4" Uniseals for the inlets. I expect them any day.
As far as the elevated buckets... I've been talking to PeteMoss about that... I'm going to attempt to run the buckets on the floor with little to no waterfall effect and use a PowerHead or Skilter in the Rez to generate DO. I ordered a different 900GPH pump than my original so I can mount it outside the reservoir.
As far as a chiller... I think I accidentally discovered a ghetto chiller that works almost too well.
Let me explain... I made an Aerocloner from an ice chest. With the pump in the cloner, temps were hovering around 82-83f. I noticed when open the lid, the warm stale air that would come out. I mounted a 2" x 8" long pvc pipe in one corner of the lid, then in the opposite corner, mounted a 2" x 12" long pvc pipe with a 2" mini-muffin fan mounted to it. The fan pulled air from the other pipe, through the rez/aerating water and out through the fan. (I used long tubes to make sure spray didn't escape)
Much to my amazement, it worked TOO well for a cloner. It dropped the temps from 83f to 57f in about 3 hours!! I've attached a pic. It's not elegant, but it draws far less current than a chiller, WAY cheaper too. I need to get a different power supply or a speed control to let me dial it down more. I had it at about 6-8Volts when it took the cloner down to 57f...
A temp switch would be ideal, but I haven't looked around for one of those yet.

I love the UC setups and will be going to one of them in the future I have no doubt. Since I already have my investment and time in this setup, I want to try to make the most of it!

PeteMoss... Good info as always!

 

[opt1c]

sick setup on the chiller man; are the fan towers submerged under the lid of the cloner or are they just moving around the ambient air inside the cloner? i'm not sure if that concept will work with the amount of water moving through the buckets but it's worth a try... if u have root problems with dwc and u don't have a chiller ur root problems will be blamed on not having a chiller and everyone will tell u to get one... now once u got one and have root probs the next run it becomes expensive to diagnose the true problem as it'll take damn near 6 months to do two runs in the buckets

best of luck; my first run with the system ran great; everyone after that got worse and worse; it think it was my inability to clean every nook and cranny of the system... i don't think i'd discovered physan20 back then and bleach wasn't cutting it

losing plants a week or two from harvest sucks when ur growing trees; i was never gonna go back to dwc after the buckets but i decided to give the under current a run as i really liked the engineering behind it... i'll be starting my third run soon; got new larger buckets but everything else is the same... i had zero root issues from a 90day plant unless u count filling up an 8 gallon bucket with roots an issue

 

[delta9nxs]

i developed an alternate plumbing scheme for my 12 site bio bucket set up. i inputted water from the bottom of each bucket and did not need valves to control delivery volume to each and so was a lot less expensive to build. i was running 23 volumes per hour through each bucket. i made a crude drawing of it years ago.

d9

i should mention that each bank of six buckets had a magdrive 950 on it. each pump had it's on 4" down tube. both sides were connected together with 2" crossover pipes.

 

[Casual]

Opt1c... the tubes just go through the lid... It seems to work like an Evaporative cooler. It's pulling air through the aerated water from the misters, taking a lot of heat out of it, then it falls back down into the reservoir. I was actually thinking about putting my EZ-Cloner setup inside the BB rez... I think it'll work, but only time will tell. If I have to get a chiller, I'll go buy one but can think of a few other things I'd rather blow a few hundred bucks on first!
Just got home from the BORG (Big Orange Retail Giant) and bought one of the big 25-gallon tubes that most people are using for the MPB setups. It's got a much larger footprint and lower sides that the rez I was going to use. I should still get some benefit from a waterfall. I also picked up a PowerHead 1200 for the rez. I'm hoping between the two that I'll be stylin' as far as DO goes.
I hear what you're saying on not being able to clean the system as well as you'd like. BT says that he runs a couple of bottles of H2O2 in his system, which in theory should kill ANYTHING still living in it. I would imagine that provided you left the system open and running for a few days after adding the H2O2, you could use just about any strength you'd want. I checked out your tour video... awesome room. Definitely larger than what I have available, but mine will be just as packed! I really like the design of the UC systems. When this first grow is over, I'll more than likely switch over to it with 6 buckets like yours. Would you say with the UC setup you got twice the yield per plant as with the BB's? My buckets are very close together with my current setup. 12 plants in essentially a 4x8 space is very tight. I figure since it's my first attempt I'm not going to be concerned with yield and just work on keeping things running smoothly and the plants healthy. If I do that, I should have a decent crop.

Delta, I like your setup... pretty slick. I'd thought about plumbing the intakes into the bottom, or at least the side of the bucket near the bottom like an Ebb & Gro setup... would have made for a much easier plumbing layout.

Caz

 

[angel4us]

under current -vs-bb

under current -vs-bb

personnally i see no difference in undercurrent system and bb IF you have proper flowrate to fully mix each individual bucket/tub and/OR you have added air stone to each bucket/tub in bb system ... BUT now i see what optic says ,the undercurrent system can be broken down and reassembled -added onto or decreases in size of system.which is outstanding!!! have to definately start next system with uniseals

of coourse all above assuming nutrient levels in uc physically same as bb .....

 

[angel4us]

pet store lady informed me today local water treated with chloramines as well as chlorine which will dissapate after couple days chloramines WILL NOT!!!!so she said to add aquasafe to start off new aquarium system with local treatment plant water.??????? any ideas

 

[Casual]

Angel, with some minor mods, you could make the BioBucket system expandable and easier to take apart. Mine is now assembled with Uniseals just like the UC system uses... no silicone, no glue. The UC system has the ability to move more volume with the same size pump though. From everything I've read, you can't have too much flow.
At PeteMoss's suggestion, I'm going to install 3/4" -> 1/2" reducing elbows on my inlets. This should force the water come through to spray 'harder' into the water in the bucket and possibly add some aeration.

Caz

 

[angel4us]

having problems getting pic on so try this link for system pic


https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=18040&pictureid=370212