FlipBox BY PowerBox??

[toohighmf]

I wonder why it's an issue if the product really is UL compliant. It's not like Horti-Control really even pushes the compliance. They push their history of reliability and safety. I'm sure you have products in your room that are Compliant and not listed. Why is building things to UL compliance and saying it a bad thing?

 

[Bud Bug]

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html

Now find me a ballast or lighting controller aside from Sentinel that are UL listed.

There are tons of ballast that are CSA/UL For example Venture Lighting

As for CSA electronic ballasts http://directories.csa-internationa...orClass=&txtClassDesc=&txtKeyword=hid+ballast

Didn't find any lighting controllers that are UL which means every company that is manufacturing/selling them is doing a disservice to the end consumer.

 

[Bud Bug]

They push their history of reliability and safety.

Means nothing to an insurance company or local city codes when it comes to medical growers or any indoor gardener.

 

[toohighmf]

what? are you implying that these co's are uninsurable? Guess you cant run more than 1 light per circuit off the wall plug and an intermatic timer. WTF? come on dude. like people don't wire up their own load centers all the time with a a couple double gang boxes, NEMA grounded recepticals and a T-105 timer. IF you can wire up your own shit. IF you Can't your gonna have to trust CAP, or others without UL listings. oh and Canada.. home of the raw open components ballast usually mounted to a wood board... this passes CSA????

 

[Bud Bug]

like people don't wire up their own load centers all the time with a a couple double gang boxes, NEMA grounded recepticals and a T-105 timer.

People can and will wire up whatever they want whether its csa/ul/etc.. approved and since 90% is gonna be illegal not like they're gonna have an inspector come in and check it but the medical growers have to be inspected and the equipment needs to be CSA/cUL with out it they aren't gonna pass.

home of the raw open components ballast usually mounted to a wood board... this passes CSA????

I'm not gonna dispute that people are retards but the ballast I liked to is a electronic ballast from Nutrilife. Most local stores will carry only CSA approved equipment and they are not allowed to have ballast they wire up into boxes on display. Local stores have have been fined for carrying non csa/cul products before.

As for insurance if your legal cannabis/non cannabis indoor garden is not full inspected and approved and the place catches on fire, the insurance company will most likely not cover you. I mean they wont cover you anyway is you burn your place down from illegal activities.

 

[toohighmf]

They must have really cracked down because I have been to Langley, Surrey and Abbottsford medical grows and I never saw any nutrilife ballasts or anything but home made timers, and NEMA plugs on everything.

 

[Hydrosun]

As for insurance if your legal cannabis/non cannabis indoor garden is not full inspected and approved and the place catches on fire, the insurance company will most likely not cover you. I mean they wont cover you anyway is you burn your place down from illegal activities.

I call BULLSHIT (for US Insurance Law, purposes. I make no claim as to Canadian law). Even if you torch your house to the ground ON PURPOSE the mortgage company will still be VERY interested in seeing the insurance company rebuild the house, and guess what insurers have to rebuild because the mortgage company is a faultless intended benificary of the insurance contract.

Peace,

 

[Bud Bug]

They must have really cracked down because I have been to Langley, Surrey and Abbottsford medical grows and I never saw any nutrilife ballasts or anything but home made timers, and NEMA plugs on everything.

Because there aren't enough inspectors to make the rounds. If you're medical you're suppose to have it approved unfortunately most of the local stores don't know anything about the process and don't help out the medical growers much except take their money. Should also add a few medical growers I've talked to don't want to get an inspection because they don't trust the inspectors to respect their privacy or keep their location secret.

I just had a friend spend 30K on his legal warehouse wiring. City came in inspected it and approved it. The 30K was a bit high as a lot of things had to be retrofitted but now that the main power lines are all set up, the rest of the rooms won't be as expensive and the insurance company won't even think about checking his place out until the second room is finished and inspected.

For example this room here is fully approved by the city where the garden is located (GVRD area) . The final inspection was a few weeks ago and they passed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eccOpmDr9jE

 

[Bud Bug]

I call BULLSHIT (for US Insurance Law, purposes.

Well good luck if your garden damages your house. Just because the place burnt down doesn't all of a sudden get you off the hook on the mortgage.

 

[toohighmf]

Another message from kris

Another message from kris

this is it. were done with this thread. I don't have any more time for BS false claims, trash talk about products you don't understand. this is Kris' Closing Statements

Brian,

Last time I will chime in here.

I was told by a man who used to be the head inspector at the southern california UL test facility that this design would be approvable. I have yet to get a second opinion, but will soon find out.

The common may still be carrying current, but the hood is grounded and if anything were to happen it would short to ground.

If this ends up being a problem, we will change it. so no problem.

I have told our designer to change the "wording" of the ul compliant to "built to ul standards" and the device is fully built with ul approved components and all crimp connectors and butt caps are 600v rated.

I have not gone through the UL or CSA stuff because Sentinel recommended I go ETL... The UL
is a for profit company that uses that logo to bilk companies out of hard earned cash. I claim no affiliation to them, nor do I care to. I told my designer I wanted literature to explain that our product is built to comply with UL standards, with UL approved components. He put UL compliant for short. my bad.


And to directly reply to jeff and his "profit margin" claims........ Touche bro.


You were the one who decided to knock me off. and your right it is business. Guess you had more people interested in flips than expensive, double breaker power outlets.

But to trademark flip box, and run ads claiming "FINALLY a Flip BOX THAT REALY WORKS!!!!" is a cheap shot.

I told you how the hid spark guys reinvented my flip box and became a complete failure. And that I was having to overcome their bad rep because people didn't know about us. You knew this and decided to use it to your advantage.

So for you to claim you make a flip box that FINALLY REALLY works helps to group me into the "those things don't work" because I am from the old school days when none of them did work. (except ours)

But alas, you too have had problems, and I thank you for putting that thing out. I have had quite a few calls from retailers these last few weeks wanting horti flips b/c that other new one they have been selling ain't cutting it. So i guess you have a while to go in figuring out how to make it last.

And p.s. My new LF-1 1 light flip is 149.99 And it uses a spdt version of my DPDT relay. With the DEEP discount I give to retailers, and the big chunk distributors get off I am in no way making a killing. Maybe it's the Aluminum enclosure that costs so much. Also more relays = more possibility of relay failure. Period. I didn't design it with only hots relayed to save money on relays and rip people off!

That would be the case if I charged people $1800.00 to bring 240v power into the grow room. Which BTW isn't in most peoples budgets and why you are the only one making a box like that.

Want to talk about expensive? buy 20 of yours and it's $3000.00 ! not to mention I have to put in what, 80 wall anchors to hang them all?

In this industry it is obvious what companies develop products based on experience growing, and those who just copy others ideas and try to profit from them. Too many products out here that make you wonder "what were they thinking?"

I thought you were cool, but now I understand you are just some ex corporate suit who brags in max yield about running multi million dollar companies and blah blah. Good luck regardless because I am not a hater but you are coming REAL close to being labeled a "habitual line stepper".

on a forum calling me out claiming I am making a killing by cheating people out of relays. I thought DB was bad....

Good luck toohigh. I am officially done here. Buy what you want guys, it's your money. Just remember you can't trust a big butt and a smile, and you shouldn't be distracted by blinking led lights and flashy claims....

Kris W
Horti-Control inc
o:702.968.0420
f:702.942.7335

 

[Avenger]

I have told our designer to change the "wording" of the ul compliant to "built to ul standards" and the device is fully built with ul approved components and all crimp connectors and butt caps are 600v rated.

I have not gone through the UL or CSA stuff because Sentinel recommended I go ETL... The UL
is a for profit company that uses that logo to bilk companies out of hard earned cash. I claim no affiliation to them, nor do I care to. I told my designer I wanted literature to explain that our product is built to comply with UL standards, with UL approved components. He put UL compliant for short. my bad.

Bravo Kris!


I know you are "done" with this thread, but the reason the common, or the screw shell connection to the lamp holder needs to be switched along with the center pin connection when ever the ballast is supplied with 240 volts is because it is HOT.

It is connected to one of the 120 volt legs that make up the 240 volt potential. When something is in the "off" position, there should be no voltage supplied to it.

It is not a fire hazzard, nor does it limit its functioning. It is a shock hazzard. Albeit a remote likelyhood of it ever happening, because someone would have to have the bulb out of the lampholder and stick there finger into the lampholder to come into contact with the screw shell.



I wish you luck with the ETL testing approval, you will be leading the way by getting approved.

However I truly do not see them approving a circuit that does not pass NEC code.

 

[High-Tech]

I read that section NEC 410.39, not sure if it applies to the seconday side of an HID ballast transformer, I may be wrong though. Kris, you summed it up, maybe Jeff should stick with real estate, after all that's his full time job. You and I have been building flips for years, I started back in 2001, since then the following have come and gone.

IPControls (Equalizer)
ZAPP
PowerCat (AN)
Electroyield
Hydrosolutionz (HIDDumb)
CVRMfg
WATTS Controls

A company in Canada, D&A Electric make a 4 ballast flip with all the ballasts built in and they CSA approval. Weighs about 200lbs but I have always heard good things about them.

I can only imagine the hundreds of customers who bought crappy flips and timerboards and seen those products fail. What I wouldn't give to attend a US tradeshow for Indoor Garden Expo. Bottom line is, when you buy a product, always open it up and check out the way it was built. Seen many ballasts wired with wirenuts and only to have them come off and short out. Then there's the oxidizing of the stranded wires in the wirenuts, usually happens within a year or two. If you put a drop of Penatrox in the wirenut, then twist the wires, will last longer. Best way to wire a ballast is with a 4 to 6 positon terminal block, then it's easy to remove a capacitor or ignitor, and rewire in a new one with a couple terminal lugs.

I do like the idea of ammeters on larger panels, but need a display for both hots or at least a switch to switch between the current transformers. 10 ballasts (1000W) plus a few other devices on a 50A 2-pole breaker will exceed the 80% rule, heck it will exceed 100%. Recently built a 100A three-phase panel (24 x 1000W ballasts) that was interfaced to a PLC with digital temp controllers/shutoffs (RANCO ETC 211000) two stages, first stage 90F would shut lights off and then on, to reduce temps, second stage 100F shut off all power, 3 digital ammeters would shut off a ballast of two if max power exceeded 80A on either L1, L2, or L3. As long as you learn something new from this thread, that's what matters.

Best Regards

 

[Avenger]

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a light source such as a lamp or lamps, together with the parts designed to position the light source and connect it to the power supply. It may also include parts to protect the light source or the ballast or to distribute the light. A lampholder itself is not a luminaire.

410.1 Scope. See related Illustration Staff Note UL

This article covers luminaires, portable luminaires, lampholders, pendants, incandescent filament lamps, arc lamps, electric-discharge lamps, decorative lighting products, lighting accessories for temporary seasonal and holiday use, portable flexible lighting products, and the wiring and equipment forming part of such products and lighting installations.

 

[Doradoguy]

Avenger I think you work for on of the company's too. You are just too smart. And standing your ground. I agree with you, all the products mentioned have a couple of issues. Thanks for your input and keeping it interesting reading. I have learned a ton by the debate and it allows me to make my own safe or unsafe designs for personal use. Flipbox guy thanks for your honesty and actually providing some useful information; you may have crossed a line calling out your competion on price but hey that's not my concern. High-Tech or no nuts or whatever you call yourself keep up the good work. If you had as much business sense as you had electrical skills you wouldn't be posting on forums or maybe you would from your yacht. Maybe some day Avenger yourself and I could team up and put them all out of business. FYI just sold my 27 business. Just trying to catch the next wave. Peace. Keep it fun, life is too short.

I know first post. Just wasted an hour reading the thread. I have been supporting another forum but might be making the switch. Seems like there are few smart people on this forum.

 

[LiLWaynE]

FYI just sold my 27 business.

27 businesses?????????????????????????????????????


must be nice.


why 27 though? i take it you didn't make enough from the first couple you sold to keep you afloat huh?

27 just seems way inflated... but hey, what do i know?

 

[Doradoguy]

It was actually 32 but I figured someone would have excused me of inflating. lol Nothing to prove and nothing to be proud of. I am counting my second grade lemonade stand does that count. Don't worry soon everbody in the industry will no who I am. It's all for the good. See you at the Indoor Garden Expo.

 

[ThisBuds4You]

No wait!! Plug timer into wall, trigger into timer, ballast into separate power source. The slave outlet is for daisy-chaining multiple flipboxes to be triggered by one timer.

Thanks! Just got my PowerBox up & running, so far so good.

TB4U

 

[Hydrosun]

Well good luck if your garden damages your house. Just because the place burnt down doesn't all of a sudden get you off the hook on the mortgage.

you missed the point. If my place burns down the insurer has to pay to rebuild the house BECAUSE the mortgage holder has an interest in seeing their security rebuilt.

Just because your insured wired up his own ceiling fan or GROW LAMP does not excuse the insurance company from paying a claim.

Now good luck arguing with me

Peace,

 

[madpenguin]

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a light source such as a lamp or lamps, together with the parts designed to position the light source and connect it to the power supply. It may also include parts to protect the light source or the ballast or to distribute the light. A lampholder itself is not a luminaire.

410.1 Scope. See related Illustration Staff Note UL

This article covers luminaires, portable luminaires, lampholders, pendants, incandescent filament lamps, arc lamps, electric-discharge lamps, decorative lighting products, lighting accessories for temporary seasonal and holiday use, portable flexible lighting products, and the wiring and equipment forming part of such products and lighting installations.

Hey... Thanks for making me dig out my NEC. I've been preaching ?30-R's on a 30A circuit and I just stumbled upon 410.62(C)(2)... I went ahead and stopped arguing the point awhile ago just because a ballast power cord won't fit in a 30A receptacle. Looks like it just has to be 125% of the full load served instead... That means you can run a 1kw ballast on a 15A receptacle that is supplied by a feeder 50A or less. That 15A receptacle would have to be a simplex however and not a duplex. Not sure about taps/pigtails tho...

Thanks Avenger....

DB, 410.93 very much applies in this instance. A mogul socket shell of a reflector is most certainly a lampholder.

Again... I don't really want to get involved here but the NEC is scripture being a non-hack electrician. Kind of rubs me the wrong way when people knowingly violate it. That's how people get killed.

I know Kris isn't knowingly violating the NEC but perhaps the EE who consulted with Kris aught to brush up on the NEC a little more. Engineers are notorious for not knowing code, that's why it's a cats and dogs relationship between electricians and electrical engineers. I've rolled out many a plan only to say "WTF?". EE's are smart as fuck with theory but typically lacking in the code department.

Anyhow, no, it's not a fire hazard. I just hope some barefooted hippy using a flip/flop doesn't decide to service the unlit lamps on a flip. That's a tragedy waiting to happen if someone doesn't use their head.

I could use a single pole T-stat on 240v baseboard heaters. Nothing prevents me from doing so because the disconnecting means not only has to kill both ungrounded conductors but able to be "locked" in the off position. But..... I still use a douple pole T-stat with 240v baseboard heaters just so you don't have to go all the way to the basement breaker box to service the units. Turn the DP T-stat all the way down and you've just killed all power to the units. It just naturally makes sense to do that.

 

[Doradoguy]

Well I plugged one lamp into each 15 amp duplex just ran 4 of them for 4 lamps. Do you think the NEC police are going to show up to my house? Since I'm not an electrian and just social smoking business man. I have a question reguarding the flip relay. Shouldn't the relay be rated at 600 plus volts. Or because the amps drop so low, the volt rating is disreguarded or I'm just retarded. One more clarification since I haven't pulled out the volti meter. On the output of the ballast are they both hot. Or is one neutral and one is hot. I understand the incoming side to the ballast. But the outgoing I need to do a little research. If one side is neutral how would the relay still provide a hot lead upon flip. I guess the easy way is to convert it to 110 through distribution. Same amount of energy unless ohms law isn't applicateable. Volts X Amps = watts. I know I'm going to get slammed but it makes for better reading.

When doubt hire and Electrian!!!

Sounds like a quote from no nuts. Good advice.