Coco+perlite+chemical nutrients=microorganisms?

[transplant]

To measure the effectiveness of the benificials is probably the hardest one to do. I had used the products. one at a time over the years. I used to use earth neacter & earth ambrosia. By adding these products one at a time over the course I saw the improvement I wanted. People always hold my bags in high regard, getting the preferance. one friend of mine would give me a hard time of all the extra stuff I did and added, but we grew the same strians & mine were always top shelf & his were definatly not. It took him a few years but he is changing to my ways now.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I skipped some of this, but isn't the true worth of beneficial micros to act as a chelate agent so the roots can uptake the nutrients more efficiently?
Not that the micros are "feeding" anything to the plant.

But using an amenity like bsmolasses serves as a chelating agent, as well as provides essential nutrients and usable carbs itself. It may well also help to feed a microherd of sorts, but I don't know that it's true prowess is in that area.

 

[transplant]

Yes the micros do exactly that. yes on the molasess

 

[*mistress*]

how do gardeners evaluate benefit of adding micro-organisms?

if feeding full strength, water soluble fertilizers, in the ph range that the plant can directly uptake... how are micro-organisms needed in that equation?

the ferts are already chelated. & if good fert, in balanced levels...

if feed gh flora nova bloom, @ 1 tbsp, may get ~1400 ppm/1.9 ec (wand)...

no need for any microbes in that equation...
only manner that micro-organisms indirectly feed plant is by eating each other... the waste from that potentially available to plant...

but, if indeed adding mycorrhizae to nutrient solution/reservoir does work well, how much is required?

do they leach away w/ watering? what is the non-beneficial organism count? since they too, eat beneficial microbes...?...

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

I thought the benefits of microlife were obvious.

We all know that a salt based nutrient is easy for a plant to absorb.

Adding microlife, is a way to enhance nutrient uptake, when using GH Flora series nutes. When working in coco. Microlife is that little "extra" and for the most part is not necessary. Neither are other enhancers like floralicious. But some of us are willing to pay the extra for above average results.

Now here's another advantage. I would go as far to say that having a healthy colony of beneficial microbes is an advantage. If you colonized your coco with GH's Subculture B.
I would say it would be harder for a pathogen like root rot to take over.

Is microlife necessary to grow? No it is not.

Could microlife have a positive effect on a grow?. I would say yes,

But I dont have any direct experience with coco and microbes with salt based nutes. Just soil grows using beneficial microbes. So until somebody posts real numbers, its going to be one of those things we're going to have to document ourselves. Every grower worth a shit should have a garden journal.

The cost of a small package of Subculture B is low.. around 30 USD for a small package.
Lets not bullshit ourselves, we're growing high dollar crops, so thats a drop in the bucket if it ups your yield. Microgrowers prolly wont notice the difference, but the larger scale growers should see a difference in yield.

So... larger scale grows. Go for it.. Microgrows.. forgetabouit..

 

[*mistress*]

I thought the benefits of microlife were obvious.

obvious in what manner?

Adding microlife, is a way to enhance nutrient uptake, when using GH Flora series nutes. When working in coco. Microlife is that little "extra" and for the most part is not necessary. Neither are other enhancers like floralicious. But some of us are willing to pay the extra for above average results.

what are the 'results'... vs. soil-grown plants w/ absolutely no myco added?

Now here's another advantage. I would go as far to say that having a healthy colony of beneficial microbes is an advantage. If you colonized your coco with GH's Subculture B.
I would say it would be harder for a pathogen like root rot to take over.

that would be a possible advantage... but general cleanliness & periodic flushes (especially w/ h202, or other strong acid) do this too... to some extent.

Is microlife necessary to grow? No it is not.

Could microlife have a positive effect on a grow?. I would say yes,

how?
& how does a gardener 9organic soil, or other...) know when it is the myco that did this/that, & not the kelp meal, or azomite? or, alfalfa meal?

The cost of a small package of Subculture B is low.. around 30 USD for a small package.

cheapo myco is succes plant tabs... 100 tabs (1 per gal)=20 coin.

Lets not bullshit ourselves, we're growing high dollar crops, so thats a drop in the bucket if it ups your yield. Microgrowers prolly wont notice the difference, but the larger scale growers should see a difference in yield.

?

how did myco get credit for yi*ld increase?
please show how add microbes+myco increase fruit count - directly.

enjoy your garden!

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

obvious in what manner?
what are the 'results'... vs. soil-grown plants w/ absolutely no myco added?
that would be a possible advantage... but general cleanliness & periodic flushes (especially w/ h202, or other strong acid) do this too... to some extent.
how?
& how does a gardener 9organic soil, or other...) know when it is the myco that did this/that, & not the kelp meal, or azomite? or, alfalfa meal?
cheapo myco is succes plant tabs... 100 tabs (1 per gal)=20 coin.
?

how did myco get credit for yi*ld increase?
please show how add microbes+myco increase fruit count - directly.

enjoy your garden!

I'm talking about General Hydropoincs Subculture B. Its a specfic for coco and high salt environments. Admitedly it has other ingredients so its hard to pinpoint what is working but when added to say a tried and true routine, the results should show up.

Look, there are plenty of us running the same clones, with the same feeding schedule, doing a very routine task. Adding this should show up or not. I log my grows, nutes, enviro. Thats why I can get around .8-1 GPW over and over. And I'm willing to test in my upcomming grow Subculture B.

Um, why would I flush coco with H2o2?. Or any strong acid?.. Plain water flush, mebby with some cleaning agents but that about it.

I've always been impressed with general hydroponics, at least the nutrient line, its a consistent performer and it always worked out well for me. So when they put out a product I'm confident that I am going to get a positive result from it.

I dunno, its a stalemate in the argument here. I dont have any evidence to prove substantial gains when using microbes in coco. Other than anecdotal evidence, or related experience growing other crops in soil. And there's nothing really solid comming from your side either.

If plant health and yield increase can be traced back by using this product, it really doesn't matter how the product works, or do I have to exactly know the function. As long as it does what its supposed to do.

 

[*mistress*]

I'm talking about General Hydropoincs Subculture B. Its a specfic for coco and high salt environments. Admitedly it has other ingredients so its hard to pinpoint what is working but when added to say a tried and true routine, the results should show up.

yes... gh good brand.
never tried that micro-organism solution/powder... but tried their floralicious+, which contains beneficial micros, that is not on label, but in msds...
also, tried plante successe, whose 'greate white' item is widely used & recommended, & their regular tabs, which have plenty of mico-life...

Look, there are plenty of us running the same clones, with the same feeding schedule, doing a very routine task. Adding this should show up or not. I log my grows, nutes, enviro. Thats why I can get around .8-1 GPW over and over. And I'm willing to test in my upcomming grow Subculture B.

so, if myco is removed from schedule, yields, quality & other identifiable traits lessen?

Um, why would I flush coco with H2o2?

to cleanse media, provide oxygen & cleanse roots...

Or any strong acid?..

h202 is weak acid... & plant love it! not new in gardening applications

Plain water flush, mebby with some cleaning agents but that about it.

if works for you, nice!

I've always been impressed with general hydroponics, at least the nutrient line, its a consistent performer and it always worked out well for me. So when they put out a product I'm confident that I am going to get a positive result from it.

I dunno, its a stalemate in the argument here. I dont have any evidence to prove substantial gains when using microbes in coco. Other than anecdotal evidence, or related experience growing other crops in soil. And there's nothing really solid comming from your side either.

If plant health and yield increase can be traced back by using this product, it really doesn't matter how the product works, or do I have to exactly know the function. As long as it does what its supposed to do.

the rub is isolating the postive efects to micro-life addition... if possible. then determining exactly how much is required for plant response...

same as if give 1/4 tsp epsom salts, if lower leaves seem mg+ deficient... that doasge is expected to have impact.

or... to reverse the topic... if micro-life is not added, will plant suffer? seems that would be universal 'no'... whether soil, rocks, or aero...
interesting topic... curious how gh suggests measuring efficacy of subcultur?

enjoy your garden!

 

[turbolaser4528]

i love threads like these. Very informative and sprinkled with humor, a pleasure to read

thank u guys for clearing up all that info, I never fully understood some of these concepts

 

[hisser]

...Um, why would I flush coco with H2o2?. Or any strong acid?.. Plain water flush, mebby with some cleaning agents but that about it.

Do you change the pH of the plain water? If not how much is it? my plain water is 7.6 pH...

Thanks for all the info people

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Do you change the pH of the plain water? If not how much is it? my plain water is 7.6 pH...

Thanks for all the info people

Add PH down to water.

In a medium like that, plain water would be ideal mainly to dissolve excess nutrients.

 

[hisser]

Add PH down to water.

In a medium like that, plain water would be ideal mainly to dissolve excess nutrients.

I usually flush with 6.0pH, and feed at that too.

 

[*mistress*]

fwiw, how do gardeners know if/when they have to 'flush'?...

not all garden/ers apply same 'flush' to plant/medium...

even if run >1.0 ec, plant can still be harsh & uninviting, if dried/cured improperly...
&... plant can be perfect-tasting fruit if grown w/ increasing ec - from 1.0-3.0+...

how does gardener distinguish between plant that needs flush, or 1 that doesnt?
if reason for flush is quality of final fruit?

what is an 'excess' of salts? which salts? how do they impact plant, if not 'flushed'?

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

fwiw, how do gardeners know if/when they have to 'flush'?...

not all garden/ers apply same 'flush' to plant/medium...

even if run >1.0 ec, plant can still be harsh & uninviting, if dried/cured improperly...
&... plant can be perfect-tasting fruit if grown w/ increasing ec - from 1.0-3.0+...

how does gardener distinguish between plant that needs flush, or 1 that doesnt?
if reason for flush is quality of final fruit?

what is an 'excess' of salts? which salts? how do they impact plant, if not 'flushed'?

Well at least in rockwool, I literally see a buildup of salts on the surface of the medium, and in other spots.

In hydrotron, I see similar buildup. And that buildup does cause nutrient lockout.

Coco from what I understand, tends to hold onto salts. So flushing or at least keeping those hotspots out and keeps the nutrient in the medium consistent.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

the rub is isolating the postive efects to micro-life addition... if possible. then determining exactly how much is required for plant response...

I think you're missing the concept when you add microlife.

A small ammount of beneficial fungi/microbes are added, to colonize the roots/medium. Given that microbes and fungi can multiply at an exponential rate, a very small ammount of microlife is actually needed.

 

[hisser]

I don't think you need to flush coco before the last week, if you water regularly and always have at least 30% run off

 

[*mistress*]

Well at least in rockwool, I literally see a buildup of salts on the surface of the medium, and in other spots.

In hydrotron, I see similar buildup. And that buildup does cause nutrient lockout.

Coco from what I understand, tends to hold onto salts. So flushing or at least keeping those hotspots out and keeps the nutrient in the medium consistent.

may be mistaking calcium bicarbonate (precipitation) w/ nutrient build-up...

water soluble nutrients should get straight to plant, not be held up in imedium.
seem more 'organic' type nutes flocculate & cause build up... certainly more than a pure fertilizer saly, like peters hydrosol, or even gh maxi series...

lots of these 'hydro' products mix calcium & magnesium into same container, & label 'cal'mag' & such, when the 2 are totally different elements & require different mixing containers, @ moments...

both cal & mag may precipitate, when mixed w/ phosphates & turn into that white film that seems like 'buildup'...

there should be no 'hot spots' in properly aerated coco... that why many input perlite. the only 'hot spot' maybe right underneath root-ball.

find this out by actually digging out plants, periodically, to sample media ec, root ec, & wetness of media... cant see from outside, but usually in center of container, media sometimes soggy.

solved:
w/ perlite/hydroton, etc mixed 40-70% w/ coco...

nutrient lock-out mainly caused by ph issue - or - mixing cal & mg w/ other nutes w/out knowing how chemicals interact... because fert comp dont say 1 word about precipitation, etc...

I think you're missing the concept when you add microlife.

A small ammount of beneficial fungi/microbes are added, to colonize the roots/medium. Given that microbes and fungi can multiply at an exponential rate, a very small ammount of microlife is actually needed.

so... idea is to proide mico-life to feed off of excess in media & around roots?

if this case, & theyre efficient, then no need @ all to flush... as they eat any excess, or 'build-up'...

or... will be 'flushing' microbes away during flush, as well... as many are water-borne & move mostly in water... so flushing flushes them out too. maybe...

dont know how flushing got mixed w/ microlife?

even if feed full strength solution, @ ec over 2.0, if plant is mature & ph managed, the plant will eat more & more...

why? root ec increases as season progresses. plant stores more & more sugars & such in roots...

since roots absorb ions based on simple osmosis, the external concentration of salts (ec) has to be higher than the internal concentration for the nutes to pass thru this gradient....

imvho, that is main cause of 'lock-out'... ieg, gardners failing to feed full strength solution, & not making ec climb during season... which lead to plants being underfed... when they @ same moment want huge flowers!

in any event, that last para just opnion... on 'lock-out'... the rest science... since some feed >1.0 ec entire season & get beautiful flowers... whether feed lots, or little, chem or org, or both & all... dial in what makes own fruit happy. rest=meaningless...

as for flush, dont know how it relates to micro-organsims...
can feed @ 2500ppm up until bitter end, & if feed is in correct proportions, final fruit tastes very well... it is cut, dry, cure that lends lots to fruit appeal/edibleness...

enjoy your garden!

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

may be mistaking calcium bicarbonate (precipitation) w/ nutrient build-up...

water soluble nutrients should get straight to plant, not be held up in imedium.
seem more 'organic' type nutes flocculate & cause build up... certainly more than a pure fertilizer saly, like peters hydrosol, or even gh maxi series...

there should be no 'hot spots' in properly aerated coco... that why many input perlite. the only 'hot spot' maybe right underneath root-ball.

find this out by actually digging out plants, periodically, to sample media ec, root ec, & wetness of media... cant see from outside, but usually in center of container, media sometimes soggy.

solved:
w/ perlite/hydroton, etc mixed 40-70% w/ coco...

nutrient lock-out mainly caused by ph issue - or - mixing cal & mg w/ other nutes w/out knowing how chemicals interact... because fert comp dont say 1 word about precipitation, etc...
so... idea is to proide mico-life to feed off of excess in media & around roots?

if this case, & theyre efficient, then no need @ all to flush... as they eat any excess, or 'build-up'...

or... will be 'flushing' microbes away during flush, as well... as many are water-borne & move mostly in water... so flushing flushes them out too. maybe...

dont know how flushing got mixed w/ microlife?

even if feed full strength solution, @ ec over 2.0, if plant is mature & ph managed, the plant will eat more & more...

why? root ec increases as season progresses. plant stores more & more sugars & such in roots...

since roots absorb ions based on simple osmosis, the external concentration of salts (ec) has to be higher than the internal concentration for the nutes to pass thru this gradient....

imvho, that is main cause of 'lock-out'... ieg, gardners failing to feed full strength solution, & not making ec climb during season... which lead to plants being underfed... when they @ same moment want huge flowers!

in any event, that last para just opnion... on 'lock-out'... the rest science... since some feed >1.0 ec entire season & get beautiful flowers... whether feed lots, or little, chem or org, or both & all... dial in what makes own fruit happy. rest=meaningless...

as for flush, dont know how it relates to micro-organsims...
can feed @ 2500ppm up until bitter end, & if feed is in correct proportions, final fruit tastes very well... it is cut, dry, cure that lends lots to fruit appeal/edibleness...

enjoy your garden!

I've measured the runoff from used hydrotron from a grow, and it does hold a bit of nutrient in it. (salts or whatever is the in the runoff) I suspect coco is no different.

H202 (aka hydrogen peroxide) isn't something I would flush a medium with if I was trying to support microlife. H202 is great for defeating root rot in low oxygen environments like DWC however, coco treated with myco & microbes in my opinion is simply destroying the microlife.
Perhaps small ammounts of H2o2 in water would decrease the antiseptic properties, but why suggest this? We're trying to colonize the coco with useful microlife.

I dont think H2o2 should be used for flushing.. Correcting a problem like root rot or algae blooms in an E&F table sure.. Flushing?.. in a very dilute form.. mebby.

There are some watering methods like drippers for coco that I can see developing nutrient hot-spots. So I can see something like a hotspot developing from this, I'm also working some rockwool blocks and I've seen some buildup from me not evenly watering the block.
A quick plain water flush and plant condition improves in a day or so.

As far as microbes and fungi being flushed out of the medium.. I dont think so, I've been growing some mushrooms lately, and once the mycellium fully colonizes the medium they dont exactly wash out, that stuff literally acts like a sponge.

 

[*mistress*]

I've measured the runoff from used hydrotron from a grow, and it does hold a bit of nutrient in it. (salts or whatever is the in the runoff) I suspect coco is no different.

H202 (aka hydrogen peroxide) isn't something I would flush a medium with if I was trying to support microlife. H202 is great for defeating root rot in low oxygen environments like DWC however, coco treated with myco & microbes in my opinion is simply destroying the microlife.
Perhaps small ammounts of H2o2 in water would decrease the antiseptic properties, but why suggest this? We're trying to colonize the coco with useful microlife.

I dont think H2o2 should be used for flushing.. Correcting a problem like root rot or algae blooms in an E&F table sure.. Flushing?.. in a very dilute form.. mebby.

There are some watering methods like drippers for coco that I can see developing nutrient hot-spots. So I can see something like a hotspot developing from this, I'm also working some rockwool blocks and I've seen some buildup from me not evenly watering the block.
A quick plain water flush and plant condition improves in a day or so.

As far as microbes and fungi being flushed out of the medium.. I dont think so, I've been growing some mushrooms lately, and once the mycellium fully colonizes the medium they dont exactly wash out, that stuff literally acts like a sponge.

most, if not all, of the 'beneficial' microbes & mycorrhizae that you seek to add to the media/solution are very aerobic... meaning, the extra oxygen molecules that break awayf rom the valence shell...

see h202 > h2 > 02... provides oxygen to organisms & the plant itslef.

hydrogen peroxide only helps the root zone environment & increases aerobic activity... aerobic activity is generally increased respiration & metabolism... = cell division & plant growth...

& there is the oxidation of anaerobic matter/orgs... mainly non-beneficials...

h202 widely used in ag crop production...

how did you come to conclusion that h202 kills micro-life?
please cite that data sets that claim h2o2 kills micro-life...

just not the scientific/chemical fact... but could be wrong... please provide reference data (not anecdotal) for h202 killing aerobic microbes/mycorrhizae...

posted bunch of data on h202 already (various prior incarnations)... but will re-post, here.
just data/facts to look over... draw own conclusions....

from:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2273324&postcount=20

water, oxygen, root environ, cation exchange, etc
physical behavior of hydrogen, oxygen and water
the chemical composition of water is h20. this means that there are, generally, 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 atom of oxygen per molecule of water. water associates, or unites w/ one another to form a loosely bound lattice of molecules having a pseudo-crystalline nature.
the degree of molecular association increases as the temp of liquid water decreases.
therefore, it is not absolutely correct when water is represented as being made of molecules that contain 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 oxygen. h20.
a more precise way to write the formula (h20)x, where x is 1, 2, 3, 4,... because x is indefinite, chemists continue to write the formula as h20.
this is becuase that oxygen atom is constantly being recirculated, like in an ebb n grow system.
the bond that is necessary to unite two simple molecules of water results from the attraction of a positive(+) hydrogen atom of one water molecule for some of the electrons of an oxygen atom of a second water molecule. this bond, is referred to as the hydrogen bond or the hydrogen bridge.
h h
h+h--->h:---h:--->
h h
edit:actual chemcial formula wont post properly; top+bottom h bonds in wrong place.

oxygen freely breaks away from water, in other words. so, the roots are well adapted the intake of oxygen via water itself, even w/out addition of airstones, diffusers, etc. the electro-chem properties of the water itself breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen. both are necessary in the root environment for healthy plant growth.

root environment
rooting media provide plant support, serve as a source of water and plant nutrients, and permit diffusion of oxygen to the plant roots. during respiration, oxygen moves into the roots and carbon dioxide moves out. the media should have sufficient pore size and distribution to provide adequate aeration and moisture retention necessary for acceptable crop production.

the series of enzymic reactions that result in the utilization of oxygen, the release of carbon dioxide (c02), and the transfer of energy from glucose and other molecules to atp and other energies is cellular respiration.

oxygen is carried to the cells, and carbon dioxide is carried from them by simple diffusion.

the roots of plants may be asphixiated if surrounding media is packed too tightly, as in a swampy area.

photosynthesis
occurs: in cells of green plants.

raw materials: water (h20) and carbon dioxide (c02)

time of occurrence: only when light shines upon cell

energy: stored in process

matter: results in increase of weight of plant

products: oxygen and organic materials

respiration
occurs: all living things

raw materials: oxygen and organic substances such as glucose

time of occurrence: continuously, night and day

energy: released by the process

matter: results in decrease in the weight of the plant/animal

products: carbon dioxide (c02) and water (02)

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

how did you come to conclusion that h202 kills micro-life?

I'll tell ya how...because each and every time the subject of H2O2 comes up, there will inevitably be some one who posts a warning that H2O2 will kill the microherd. It never fails.
If I were you, I wouldn't even waste time with the facts, they will be shot down with ignorance. And once you get to the "aerobic" part, you are already labeled a heretic.
Never mention H2o2 around so called organic guru's. (holds head)