Chemicals or Organics?

[mullray]

BTW - Nazis spread false and often malicious propaganda - as do organic nazis and that's why I refer to this level of ignorance as i do. I'm thinking of writing a book called how the tree hugging bastards killed the planet Actually - no the title will be "how the greens killed the planet" and have been collating data for years. It's time people woke up to the organic hoax (so much misinformation and dogma proliferated by so few). If you want to talk shit let's talk organics.

Actually I should add that ammonium nitrate does make a reasonable type of bomb but it isn't synthesized in order to do this. Simply add diesel and a primer and there you go (the exact recipe I best not discuss) - so what you're really talking about is reactants and a catalyst. Then again arsenic comes in organic and inorganic forms (there are many types) and arsenic is used to kill also. Bummer is that organic arsenic is more bioavailable to a plant than inorganic arsenic.

 

[Chimney]

dfgdfgd

 

[Bighill]

The point of organics is to feed the bacteria.. your missing the point here. Sure Nitrogen is the same in both, that is obvious. The bacteria that form a sybiosis with the roots is what you DON'T get from chems... I rest my case. Can we just light the erb now?

I'd go with a bottled organic feed for outdoors, infact that is what i do.

And why are we talking about bombs... I only smoke the bomb.!

Bh.

 

[bombadil.360]

What you are talking about my friend is NO3 N Nitrate N (which is mostly the N you will find in any hydroponic fertilizer and is highly bioavailable), NH4 N (ammonium nitrogen which should be no more than 1%w/v of any hydroponic fertilizer and is not used at all in many cases) and (NH2)2CO (urea which by the way naturally occurs in the human body and is soil based and shouldn't be used in hydroponic fertilizers due to slower uptake and translocation rates). NO3 stands for one atom of elemental N and 3 atoms of oxygen - organic if you see the point. NH4 (ammonium nitrogen) stands for one atom of elemental N and 4 atoms of Hydrogen (all organic). Should I break down urea for you? or can we manage this one ourself? Next - what the plant uses is elemental N which is elemental N which is elemental N no matter where it derives from - of course plants also require O, H and C - all of which are naturally occurring. You need to do some reading as this stuff is elemental science/chemistry and no one credible debates that to a plant N is N, P is P, K is K and so on. It's old news that the only difference between man made fertilizers and organic fertilizers is the potential for heavy metal contaminants (which I'm saying occurs in both and more so in many instances in organic fertilizers) OK mate you obviously know science/chemistry so keep throwing it at me and I can give you a lesson in chemistry and molecular biology (which BTW just happens to be my profession). Oh also ammonium is naturally occurring in nature and so is a death adders bite but that'll still kill you. BTW Nitric Acid is seldomly used in nutrients and provides elemental N but reduces pH drastically so is only used to top up elemental N levels where all else can't be used. Technical grade Nitric Acid is typically 68% HNO3. Note the atoms - again all organic and naturally occurring. We begin with HNO3 at 68%. We now need to pull apart our HNO3 at an atomic level to equate the percentage of elemental N in tech grade 68% Nitric Acid.

Firstly look at the chemical/molecular structure of HNO3. We have one H (Hydrogen) atom, one N (Nitrogen) atom and three O (Oxygen) atoms.

The atomic weight of Hydrogen (H) = 1.00794

The atomic weight of oxygen (O) = 15.99. We have three O atoms; therefore O3 = 3 x 15.99 = 47.97 (total atomic weight of 3 Oxygen molecules).

The atomic weight of N = 14.00674

Therefore the total atomic weight of HNO3 equals 1.00794 (1 x H atom) + 47.97 (3 x O atoms) + 14.00674 (1 x N atom) = 62.984

So our equation to establish elemental N percentage from tech grade Nitric Acid becomes the atomic weight of N (the element we want) divided by the total molecular weight of HNO3 multiplied by 100, divided by one. I.e.

% elemental N in HNO3 =

(Molecular weight of N =) 14.00674 x ** 100 = 22.238% (elemental N)
(Total Molecular weight HNO3 =) 62.984 1

We now know that 100% HNO3 contains 22.238% of elemental N. We have 68% pure HNO3 so we now need to equate this. That is, 22.238 (elemental N in 100% nitric acid) x 68% (tech grade purity) = 15.12% N.



Yep - I don't know crap about chemistry - let's talk about organic N if you like because then we have to start breaking down all sorts of chemistry also (but do we really need to?)

you prove yourself wrong with your own math.

obviously Ammonia contains a lot more than just Elemental Nitrogen, hence reacting and acting differently over the soil, way more different and damaging than when nature provides Elemental Nitrogen herself.

there is simply no way to think that using synthetic Ammonia to provide Nitrogen to plants is as healthy to soil quality as using properly prepared worm castings. Where is the science in this?

 

[bombadil.360]

The point of organics is to feed the bacteria.. your missing the point here. Sure Nitrogen is the same in both, that is obvious. The bacteria that form a sybiosis with the roots is what you DON'T get from chems... .

you are right, but nitrogen is not the same in both.

because Ammonia is not just pure Elemental Nitrogen.

so it is never the same...

 

[mullray]

Ok so you're telling me worm castings are pure elemental N. Put up a guaranteed analysis and I'll break down the contents for you from a molecular level (or do you not have analysis of the products that you feed to your plants or do you just act on blind faith that if its organic it must be good?) Better yet throw up a lab analysis (tell you what if you're will ing to send it into a lab I'll pick up the costs and even give you a lab name in your country of choice) that covers all forms of N and I'll be more than happy to explain whats going on with worm castings Yet another problem with organics is it isn't subjected to the same regulations that non organic fertilizers are (in most cases, in most countries and in most states). Recently they tested health supplements (10 in total) and in 9 out of ten cases arsenic levels, Cd levels, and chromium levels exceeded world health standards. In 4 cases Cd and arsenic were at such high levels that these so called health supplements were toxic and harming consumers in the long term. Look - we could beat around the bush all day about this - if there is one thing I have learned form the organic movement it is they simply aren't interested in the science and lock onto things (usually incorrectly) and try to build a case around this. Such as this rubbish about NH4. Guys, friendly bacteria thrive in inorganic and organic environments as long as their food chain is provided (i.e. sugars and carbons). In fact friendly bacteri require C, H, O, N, S, P, K, Mg, Fe, Ca, Mn and traces of Zn, Cu and Mo (note C, H, O). Other than this, molasses is the best food for microbiological organisms so add molasses and friendly bacteria and biomass will explode (BTW - molasses is full of chlorine and varying heavy metals so best to ferment it and accept you're smoking Cd and other toxins). Next - however, is that friendly bacteria have limited effect in hydroponic settings because the plant food is highly bioavailable. Fungi such as mychorrizae don't colonise in high phosphorous environments so while they may be useful in soil with low phosphorous (approx 10ppm or under which is the norm for VAM friendly formulations) there is absolutely no point in adding this particular fungi in hydro settings. Sure they'll survive but as phosphorous fixing fungi there's no point them being there ---- all related to ATP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate).

Let me throw in some other examples of organic products that are sold in the US. Let's bang in some worm castings first.


BLACK GOLD EARTHWORM CASTINGS BLEND .8-0-0 SUN GRO HORTICULTURE DIST. INC.

Arsenic 25.6100
Cadmium <0.1000
Lead <0.1000
Selenium <0.0500

VERMI-GROW WORM CASTINGS 1-.1-.3 OREGON SOIL CORP

Arsenic 9.8800
Cadmium 1.5100
Lead 41.0000
Selenium 6.2100

Jesus - yeah worm castings are great!! Personally though I'll give them a wide birth. I aren't into smoking cadmium - an immune suppressant that takes a very long time to clear from the human body. Next - good old fish.

BIO-FISH 7-7-2


Arsenic <0.5000
Cadmium 7.9000
Lead 1.2000
Selenium <5.5000

How about some kelp?

KELP EXTRACT POWDER 1-0-19 AGROWCHEM INC

Arsenic 28.6000
Cadmium 1.0000
Cobalt 1.0500
Lead 1.0000
Selenium 1.0000



KELPPOWER 0-0-.5 KWS DISTRIBUTING LLC

Arsenic <10.0000
Cadmium <0.5000
Lead <5.0000
Selenium <10.0000

Yeah nasty stuff when put along side those "chems" the organic nazis keep raving about and I sure wouldn't be using organics when I can make my own nutes with analytical grade components that have almost 0ppm heavy metals . In fact here's what my last batch tested at (total heavy metals in concentrate solution) <0.001ppm Show me an organic formula with that number and I'll give credit where credit is due (good luck - you won't find one.... not even close).

MR

 

[grapeman]

It always blows me away by how hot this topic can get. First off I'll state that I live by the science so therefore think much of the organics argument is based on soil agriculture practices of the past where excessive fertilizer use resulted in leaching and heavy metal accumulation (Pb, Cd, Cr, As) in soils. It seems though a futile argument because there's so much blow by organic zealots (shit about shit) that it can only be described as some form of religion (blind faith).

Since when were fertilizers chemicals? Let's face it most of the nasty shit in them (i.e. heavy metals) comes from their organic sources. Note phosphates which once upon a time were laden in cadmium. Guess what - this cadmium came from the rocks that were used to produce phosphate fertilizers...

Here's an anlysis of 2 Bat Guano products (bat shit that is full of cadmium and other heavy metals).

BAT GUANO 0-7-0

Arsenic 11.7000
Cadmium 7.6000mg/kg
Cobalt 12.6000
Zinc 1637.0000
Lead 1.2000

BAT GUANO NATURAL ORGANIC PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER 0-7-0

Arsenic 13.3000
Cadmium 10.0000mg/kg
Lead 1.2000
Selenium 5.5000

Here's an analysis of one of those nasty chem phosphate fertilizers.

Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP 0- 52- 34)

Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥51.3 %
K2O ≥34.0%
Water insoluble, max 0.1 %
Moisture, max 0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%

Hell of a lot cleaner wouldn't you say? 2mg/kg Cd (man made nasty chemicals as the zealots would howel) versus 10.0000mg/kg Cd (heavy shit)

I could go on about this all day and throw up as much chemistry and science as I like but why bother. The organic argument is not based on science ---- it's fed by ignorance and varying kinds of shit (not to mention worm castings and molasses which are both riddled in heavy metals). BTW - just on that note the word organics is a scam. Plants uptake non organic particles (e.g. cadmium, arsenic, lead etc) from "organic" soils and therefore there is no such thing as organic mj or any other plant. MR

LOL I like this post. After 40 years of farming I know the above is correct. N is N is N. If it's not N, then the plant cannot use it.

But I too am giving this organic thing a whirl. I am interested in trying to make the soil a complete food so all I will add is water and some teas now and then. After having some grows completely go south due to helpers not doing things correct and screwing up a crop or 2 while I was out of town, this just seems easier.

I can tell you that buying bone meal, kelp meal EWC etc on a 160 acre plot would not be cost effective. Manures are good but farming is a competitive business and it is hard to control when the manure is going to run out of N because you want the fruit to sugar up. At those times, CAN 17 or AN 20 fit the bill. But I'm doing this for fun so I am anxious to learn what I can doing a year of organic here.

Time will tell.

 

[grapeman]

Yep there's the organic Nazi mind at work again. Here's the science. Pesticides and plant food (essential mineral nutrition) are very different things. You cite the wine industry when we're talking mj (at least that's why I'm on an mj forum). Mineral nutrition is absolutely required by plants whereas "chemical" pesticides aren't and many hydro growers know this and do not use any chemical pesticides ever. A bit more science ----- recently they tested a crapload of med products from LA dispensaries and found 5.47% of the products tested contained "trace" residues of pesticides. That should have ideally been 0% but here's the real bummer - it turned out the bulk of this was Pyrethrum (an organic approved pesticide) in both organic and hydro samples. I was impressed that only 5.47% tested positive and most of this was for an organic pesticide - the med movement has done itself proud. Turns out we're more ethical than wine growers and many other growers for that matter. No one is debating that traditional agricultural practices, in some instances, need to be questioned and ideally regulated to ensure food is safe. I doubt anyone here is debating this ---- I sure aren't.

Bottom line: Whether you grow hydro or organics there is no need to use chemical pesticides and its always been my experience that more bugs are outdoors than indoors (and I grow indoors).

A bit more science (actually biochemistry) - it makes no difference to a plant whether an atom of nitrogen is derived from poultry manure or synthetically derived from air (as is the case in most man made nitrogen fertilizers - yep air ---- pretty organic really huh --- so far we have rocks and air).

However, if you really want to talk about nasty shit maybe we ought to talk mycotoxins (toxic secondary by-products of fungi) that are just under 2000 times more toxic than even the most toxic pesticides. Mycotoxins are a result of a.Flavus fungi (among other fungi) which are everywhere and organic (or at least naturally occurring in nature). And yep among other organic nasties they have been found in many samples of mj (nature kills.... eat shit that'll kill you too).


I am a fan of both organics and hydro but I'm sick of hearing the organic movement beating their gongs about shit they clearly don't understand (or would rather not discuss) and picking up on questionable examples when there are multitudes of other examples that contradict their so called facts. Hmm the petrochemical industry --- there's a bit of impressive -albeit reductive- fear mongering (more organic nazi dribble) but I despise the petrochemical industry as much as I disdain the hippy hoax of a 16 billion a year organic food scam which feeds wealthy white people but threatens to starve everyone else (i.e. the poor living in developing nations) because organic food is overpriced, yields less, and is far more labour intensive . Oh and don't even go with developing nations grow organically --- you'll be citing more flawed facts. i live and work in developing nations and have done so for the past six years and will assure you that developing nations need food and therefore grow using anything that helps food grow. Shit man - these guys couldn't give a shit about chems (as the organic nazis like to call them) - it beats starving yeah? So let's hope the future is in sustainable use of low heavy metal content fertilizers (i.e. hydroponics which separates mineral elements from the earth) and organic pesticides.


Here's a few links to those who want to check out both sides of the debate...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/f...al-health-benefits-reveals-food-watchdog.html


http://www.integralhydro.com/advancednutrients.html (go to base of the page and read about heavy metals in fertilizers and cannabis - also a very good story about suspect marketing by Advanced Nutrients )


http://www.slate.com/id/2198756/ (great article and raises some very good points)


Here's a concept to mull over


"One issue frequently overlooked by organic enthusiasts is the prevalence of excess arsenic, lead, cadmium, nickel, mercury, copper, and zinc in organic soil. Soil ecologists and environmentalists—and, to some extent, the concerned public—have known for more than a century that the synthetic pesticides of conventional farming leave heavy metals in the ground but the fact that you'll find the same toxins in organic soil and composts has been largely obscured from the public.


Scientists have known since the 1920s that organic fertilisers (composted animal manure, rock phosphates, fish emulsions, guano, and wood ashes etc) contaminate topsoil with varying concentrations of heavy metals. Organic advocates, who rely exclusively on these fertilisers, are well aware of the problem, although they rarely publicise the point."


MR

I like this post also. Especially the part of wealthy white folks eating organic produce. Organics will never feed the world. I'm just hoping here it just makes my life easier and grows decent flowers. So far, I've spent 1/2 a day making my soil. If all goes well after this, I will save time, energy and money. If not, I learned a lot anyway.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Keep bickering. Im learning some stuff.

 

[mullray]

Organics I have no problems with - its a nice concept and we have much to thank the organic movement for. Notably they raised the alarm about pesticides and put pressure on governments to bring about change. I think some of this bacterial stuff though is coming from the old school practice of nuking the earth with methyl bromide and wiping out all micro culture in the process. That's now banned which is fantastic. Modern agriculture now embraces PGPB (plant growth promoting bacteria) and have made gains because of this.

OK - so I want to make a call out. I'm wanting someone who can help me get tissue analysis done in Nor Cal on MJ - or perhaps in BC . I'm based in Lao at present so it's impossible for me to do and we need someone with a 215 licence who has a bit of leaf (sample tissue) to spare and some time. It's an important issue - there's not nearly enough research been done into heavy metal contaminants in mj. Cd is a major concern because smokers are in the highest risk group. Anyone who can help or is willing to talk to me about it can pm me. Governments aren't out to look after us so its up to us to look after our own. Hit me if you're keen. Maybe I can reciprocate by providing you with some formulas and consultancy on how to make them with products that are available in your locale.

MR

 

[Dr_Tre]

If you claim that organic ferts contaminate topsoil with varying concentrations of heavy metals how do you explain that thousands of years of organic farming has kept the soil pure and clean and only in the last decades of chemical industrialisation we have problems with chemically poisoned food?You are quite biting in your comments remember noone likes to be called nazi because he advocates organic growing (do you happen to know what nazi means?).Organic movement is growing strong no matter if chemists like it or not we will stand up and shout: I DON'T NEED CHEMICALS TO GROW MY HERB!

 

[VerdantGreen]

It comes down to quality vs. quantity IMHO.

Yields will be up with synthetics ......

hi Herbasaurus, i think this is a common fallacy - imo organics can yield just as well as any other method including hydro (perhaps hydro can be slightly quicker)

i havent seen any chem grows on IC that yield higher than my organic one. (link in my sig)

V.

 

[mullray]

If you claim that organic ferts contaminate topsoil with varying concentrations of heavy metals how do you explain that thousands of years of organic farming has kept the soil pure and clean and only in the last decades of chemical industrialisation we have problems with chemically poisoned food?You are quite biting in your comments remember noone likes to be called nazi because he advocates organic growing (do you happen to know what nazi means?).Organic movement is growing strong no matter if chemists like it or not we will stand up and shout: I DON'T NEED CHEMICALS TO GROW MY HERB!

Organics haven't contaminated soil ---- who told you that myth??? Please don't spread it as its more organic rubbish. Cadmium comes from rocks. When it rains cadmium enters rivers, the ocean and soil (just one example but there are many more) And yes you are absolutely correct that industrialization has polluted this planet further and that is now an absolute given - no getting around it; no turning back and at best we can only hope to slow it or cease it and then wait a thousand or so years ---- best thing is we now have atmospheric desposition so air is poisoning the planet further. What this means is that soils are polluted further and so on. All these pollutants enter the food chain (e.g. kelp which is eaten by fish and so on). I know what nazi represents but then if ignorance is ceasing progress and resulting in the deaths of people I would say its pretty fair to take issue to that.

 

[Dr_Tre]

Scientists have known since the 1920s that organic fertilisers (composted animal manure, rock phosphates, fish emulsions, guano, and wood ashes etc) contaminate topsoil with varying concentrations of heavy metals. Organic advocates, who rely exclusively on these fertilisers, are well aware of the problem, although they rarely publicise the point."


MR

This is where I got the idea of organic contamination.lol
Organic farming has not killed anybody for sure.Can you say the same about chemicals?

 

[mullray]

This is where I got the idea of organic contamination.lol
Organic farming has not killed anybody for sure.Can you say the same about chemicals?

really - organics hasn't killed anyone. Course organics has killed people. Try arsenic. Try snake bites. Try spider bites. Try mosquitos - they have killed more people than all the wars put together. should I go on:? Guys this is getting tired and as per usual the same brick walls espoused by people who simply aren't prepared to listen and debate intelligently create a cluster fuck of stuck record going nowhere arguments without credibility or substantiation. I'm out --- enjoy MR

 

[Wait...What?]

Grocery store tomatoes taste worse because they are picked at breaker stage 1 and ripened in the sales pipeline with ethylene gas. Got nothing to do with soil or hydro. My tomatoes are grown in hydro because my soil is loaded with fusarium wilt.

 

[bombadil.360]

Ok so you're telling me worm castings are pure elemental N.

no, dummy, that is not what I said...

I am saying that Worm Castings provide Elemental Nitrogen without damaging the Soil; unlike what Ammonia does.

pasting from internet links does not make you an expert.

 

[bombadil.360]

really - organics hasn't killed anyone. Course organics has killed people. Try arsenic. Try snake bites. Try spider bites. Try mosquitos - they have killed more people than all the wars put together. should I go on:? Guys this is getting tired and as per usual the same brick walls espoused by people who simply aren't prepared to listen and debate intelligently create a cluster fuck of stuck record going nowhere arguments without credibility or substantiation. I'm out --- enjoy MR

all you have is propaganda, not science.

you even go so far in your deluded mind as to interpret the term Organic as being used by Growers to relate to any 'organic' substance.

you are unreal.

 

[vonforne]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to grapeman again.

Good posting grapeman you have learned alot. Good luck with the grow.

V

 

[mullray]

Hey Grapeman I agree with vonforne. Good luck with the grow and organics will serve you just fine.