Chemicals or Organics?

[D.S. Toker. MD]

CONFLICTING CONTRADICTIONS!!!!

I want to grow organic but i read conflicting info about it. Some swear by it but others seem to be more cautious.


In this weeks newspaper, the county extension agent wrote an article about organic gardening and issued a word of caution. He said while organic growing can be satisfying, the danger of disease and systemic bacterial contamination is much higher than with chemical ferts and much care should be taken when working in organic gardens due to the presence of anthrax, tetnus, cholera and a host of other diseases that are present in soil with decaying humus. "Always wear gloves and a fine particulate filter mask....."

He also stated that organic growing involved considerably more work and effort and that yeilds from organicly grown crops can never equal chemically grown crops.

I don't want to grow with gloves and a face mask on.
I dont want to work harder for less weed.
I dont want to smoke ammonium nitrate

Any experience or input?

 

[vonforne]

Organic material will add to the already existing Soil Food Web. Check out The Soil Food Web Inc. web site.

Your plants will perform better adding to Mother Nature rather than poisoning her.

V

 

[pray4pistils]

Your plants will perform better adding to Mother Nature rather than poisoning her.

How do you figure that chemical nutes are necessarily "poison"? That's a baseless and bombasatic statement as far as I'm concerned. Sure, organic growing has its merits and undisciplined use of synthetic compounds wreaks havoc in the environment. With regards to affects on the plant that the stuff is applied, though... Where's your evidence that the plants are actually damaged?

Also, this thread's question creates an unecessary choice. There's no reason to choose only between chemicals and organics. Both can be used to great affect at the same time, in fact. The better question, in my opinion, is how much of one vs the other is optimal.

Indoors I grow hydroponically. The plants start life under a 65W CFL in beer cups full of 80% coir and 20% earthworm castings. Once they're nearly root bound they get placed into ebb & grow buckets filled with hydroton. The nute regimen at first is purely organic and I brew it in my highly aerated 55gal reservoir. The base is Iguana Juice and then I throw in various other stuff. Examples are my own urine, sweeteners, earthworm castings, kelp, etc.

I never see any crispy tips, stress is eliminated (even during transplant), and roots are perfectly healthy. After a couple of days I turn up the lighting wattage with a 400W CMH and then bump the ppm up up with FloraNova at half strength. Grow accelerates and everything looks great.

In my outdoor vegetable garden I amend the top soil with all the good stuff. With that I refer to mushroom compost, kitchen compost, earthworm castings, coco coir, myco fungus, kelp, and such. Every two weeks I empty my hydro reservoir right into this garden. Each time growth picks up. Everything looks healthy and stays that way.

Rather than flush either garden before harvest I simply go back to pure organics. The synthetics dissipate and can't be detected in the finished product. That's whether it's a cucumber, spinach, or some dank. I use this same technique when juggling two strains with differing nutrient requirements. In that case I rely on the organics to provide the basic mix, spike with FloraNova to the limits of the slower-growing plant, and then foliar feed the one with the faster metabolism.

My point is that there's a place for all this stuff. That might not be your specific garden. But, it certainly is mine and others that pride themselves growers -not "poisoners".

To me, the optimal way to go is with Mother Nature as the backbone. No simple chemical formulation can ever be complete as what the good Earth provides. The beneficial micros do a way better job at keeping things clean than H202, bleach, or whatever sterilizing measures. So, promote them! Similarly, the synthetic stuff allows one to deliver impressive amounts of selected nutrients in a precise and timely manner. The blend of the two really works well when done properly.

Cheers,

 

[fishheadbob]

I am by no means an organic kind of guy, but the extension agent who wrote that crap should get an award as a first class douchebag. Sounds like he's interviewing for a job at Dow.
I would recommend you try to keep it natural as much as possible, but if your girls need a dose of ammonium nitrate, then they need a dose of ammonium nitrate.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Well... Ive read that applying chemicals to organic soil kills some type of bacteria that is essential to the plants and if you use chems, you have to keep using chems. Any truth?


The packaging for every organic growing medium ive seen confirms the Ag agents assertions about disease because every bag you can buy has a big warning to wear gloves when working with the product.

Ive done some reading, and there isnt any disagreement in the belief among the agricultural community that chemicals are far superior to organics. It is an industry wide belief held by all agricultural professionals and authorities. Organics is a small but growing percentage of agricultural production but it has its supporters. Most How-To organic gardening guides suggest that "organic gardening can be as productive", and most warn of the dangers of soil bacteria with regards to growing.

I recently read an article that claimed that the biggest impediment to satisfying world hunger was the world wide shortage of chemical fertilizer. Why cant 3rd world countries use organics if yeild and ease of growing is the same?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

CONFLICTING CONTRADICTIONS!!!!

I want to grow organic but i read conflicting info about it. Some swear by it but others seem to be more cautious.


In this weeks newspaper, the county extension agent wrote an article about organic gardening and issued a word of caution. He said while organic growing can be satisfying, the danger of disease and systemic bacterial contamination is much higher than with chemical ferts and much care should be taken when working in organic gardens due to the presence of anthrax, tetnus, cholera and a host of other diseases that are present in soil with decaying humus. "Always wear gloves and a fine particulate filter mask....."

He also stated that organic growing involved considerably more work and effort and that yeilds from organicly grown crops can never equal chemically grown crops.

I don't want to grow with gloves and a face mask on.
I dont want to work harder for less weed.
I dont want to smoke ammonium nitrate

Any experience or input?

D.S. Toker

I make my living (such as it is) from growing organic produce, specifically Southeast Asian basil hybrids/heirloom varieties, berries, edible flowers, etc.

Having said that, the 'information' from this clown's article/essay is without merit on a ton of levels.

Completely and totally worthless, IMHO

YMMV

CC

 

[pray4pistils]

Well... Ive read that applying chemicals to organic soil kills some type of bacteria that is essential to the plants and if you use chems, you have to keep using chems. Any truth?

Well, I'm no microbiologist or botanist, but... I can certainly speak from practical experience. As I mentioned, I mix organic and synthetic nutrients all the time. In my last hempy bucket grow I even found earthworms living in the root zone. What does that tell you? Also, I switch from complete organics in the beginning to an organic base + synthetics (middle stages) and then end with pure organics ("flush"). I see no stress or transitions aside from faster growth when I use the chems.

While I can't speak from scientific authority... I believe these results speak for themselves. Beneficial bacteria, fungus, and even worms can co-exist with "chemicals". After all, by the time organic materials are fully digested/processed... these compounds can't be distinguised from the man made stuff. It's all the same damned stuff that the roots absorb.

Why cant 3rd world countries use organics if yeild and ease of growing is the same?

Once local farming traditions are lost to modernity the ancient knowledge is gone and people have to learn their way all over again. This takes effort and isn't fashionable. Meanwhile, applying synthetic nutes is easier since you just pour it into the ground and watch the results. Anybody can do it. So, yield and ease are NOT the same in most cases.

The potential is there for pure organics to compete toe to toe, but the probability isn't. The same thing goes with us. That's why I like to mix them.

 

[grapeman]

I am no organic expert, I am trying to learn from the posts of V, B1 and others at the moment. I do have some farming knowledge though and I would take just about anything from the USDA and or a county Extension agent with a hugh grain of salt.

Most of these folks are tired bureaucrats who either failed or lacked the gonads to take any risk themselves and are historians for the farmers and risk takers of the world.

As far as plant diseases go, The rule of thumb is pretty simple. healthy soil/healthy plants = lower risk of disease. This would hold true for any type of farming, organic or not.

My opinion of USDA Extension Service is from personal experience wherein these types have actually come to my farm/office, asked me a few questions, then wrote and published a paper with my information, never once giving me credit. They are leeches looking to make a name for themselves without ever accomplishing anything themselves.

 

[Dr_Tre]

Do not worry about anthrax and tetanus unless you have open wounds on your hands.Do you think all organic farmers work with masks?
Also, mixing organic and chemicals will not get you organic crop - it is all chemical then.Bacteria and fungi get more resistent when they grow in chemical-rich environment, therefore they get more dangerous.
Think for your own health and nature's health - GROW ORGANIC!!!

 

[Herbasaurus]

It comes down to quality vs. quantity IMHO.

Yields will be up with synthetics but I find taste and the quality of the high better with organics, the organics seem to communicate the subtler effects of the plant more fully.

Not necessarily higher but nicer.

 

[pray4pistils]

Also, mixing organic and chemicals will not get you organic crop - it is all chemical then.

Uh... no? If it's a mix of organic and chemical, then it's literally... a "mix of chemical and organic". OMRI won't rate it as "organic" and neither will "organic" growing devotees. However, that word is arbitrarily snobbish, anyway. It's a trend description without technical merit. (In chemical terms it simply means "carbon based"). The notion that one splash of chemical during an otherwise organic season ruins a crop... is just narrow thinking. If you did a tissue study of such a plant, you'd see no difference under a microscope. Nor can anybody distinguish it by taste or scent. This sort of rigidity is impractical and again... snobbish.

Bacteria and fungi get more resistent when they grow in chemical-rich environment, therefore they get more dangerous.

That's an overgeneralization. (We're not discussing pesticides here.) A whole host of bacteria and fungi are very welcome in our gardens. They're literally what process organic nutrients and feed the plants. Without them the plants will starve and die. If the grow medium is well-oxygenated the beneficial micros will dominate the bad anerobic stuff. So, unless you can substantiate that synthetic nutrients specifically kill off the beneficials and leave the nasties to flourish... your statement has no logical foundation and should be ignored by those seeking advice.

If you CAN substantiate your claim, though, then I'd highly value and respect the information. Whatcha got?

 

[bombadil.360]

Ive done some reading, and there isnt any disagreement in the belief among the agricultural community that chemicals are far superior to organics. It is an industry wide belief held by all agricultural professionals and authorities. Organics is a small but growing percentage of agricultural production but it has its supporters. Most How-To organic gardening guides suggest that "organic gardening can be as productive", and most warn of the dangers of soil bacteria with regards to growing.

there are many different ways to grow organic, that is what betrays whatever sources you have been reading...

you can grow organic and get huge harvest results, all you need is have enough worm humus for example.

you can produce your own humus for free too, just get some cali red worms and make yourself a nice home for them.

and whoever says getting anthrax is one danger of organic growing is surely on a propaganda spree. fact is, if there are anthrax spores in your field, even if you work with chems you can get sick from them. even if you just walk on your field and there are enough live spores there, you can get sick, no need to be farming lol

good luck

 

[vonforne]

How do you figure that chemical nutes are necessarily "poison"? That's a baseless and bombasatic statement as far as I'm concerned. Sure, organic growing has its merits and undisciplined use of synthetic compounds wreaks havoc in the environment. With regards to affects on the plant that the stuff is applied, though... Where's your evidence that the plants are actually damaged?

Also, this thread's question creates an unecessary choice. There's no reason to choose only between chemicals and organics. Both can be used to great affect at the same time, in fact. The better question, in my opinion, is how much of one vs the other is optimal.

Indoors I grow hydroponically. The plants start life under a 65W CFL in beer cups full of 80% coir and 20% earthworm castings. Once they're nearly root bound they get placed into ebb & grow buckets filled with hydroton. The nute regimen at first is purely organic and I brew it in my highly aerated 55gal reservoir. The base is Iguana Juice and then I throw in various other stuff. Examples are my own urine, sweeteners, earthworm castings, kelp, etc.

I never see any crispy tips, stress is eliminated (even during transplant), and roots are perfectly healthy. After a couple of days I turn up the lighting wattage with a 400W CMH and then bump the ppm up up with FloraNova at half strength. Grow accelerates and everything looks great.

In my outdoor vegetable garden I amend the top soil with all the good stuff. With that I refer to mushroom compost, kitchen compost, earthworm castings, coco coir, myco fungus, kelp, and such. Every two weeks I empty my hydro reservoir right into this garden. Each time growth picks up. Everything looks healthy and stays that way.

Rather than flush either garden before harvest I simply go back to pure organics. The synthetics dissipate and can't be detected in the finished product. That's whether it's a cucumber, spinach, or some dank. I use this same technique when juggling two strains with differing nutrient requirements. In that case I rely on the organics to provide the basic mix, spike with FloraNova to the limits of the slower-growing plant, and then foliar feed the one with the faster metabolism.

My point is that there's a place for all this stuff. That might not be your specific garden. But, it certainly is mine and others that pride themselves growers -not "poisoners".

To me, the optimal way to go is with Mother Nature as the backbone. No simple chemical formulation can ever be complete as what the good Earth provides. The beneficial micros do a way better job at keeping things clean than H202, bleach, or whatever sterilizing measures. So, promote them! Similarly, the synthetic stuff allows one to deliver impressive amounts of selected nutrients in a precise and timely manner. The blend of the two really works well when done properly.

Cheers,

Ok, with that answer I do not think you know what I am talking about.

First, what we do n Organics is feed the soil.....not the plant. The soil does that hence......the soil food web. I will give yo an example....

In my outdoor vegetable garden I amend the top soil with all the good stuff. With that I refer to mushroom compost, kitchen compost, earthworm castings, coco coir, myco fungus, kelp, and such. Every two weeks I empty my hydro reservoir right into this garden. Each time growth picks up. Everything looks healthy and stays that way.

you fed the plants. A plant does not care where the NPK comes from....it is a plant. o, when you add chemical fertilizers to an already existing food web you are essentially ´poison it`. In an outdoor garden the chances of long term damage depends on the amount of chemicals you apply.

I do not believe in combining the 2. Mother Nature perfected her way and it took 450 billion years.

You are telling me you have done it in a few short years or man itself has accomplished that. LOL

V

 

[Dr_Tre]

Uh... no? If it's a mix of organic and chemical, then it's literally... a "mix of chemical and organic". OMRI won't rate it as "organic" and neither will "organic" growing devotees. However, that word is arbitrarily snobbish, anyway. It's a trend description without technical merit. (In chemical terms it simply means "carbon based"). The notion that one splash of chemical during an otherwise organic season ruins a crop... is just narrow thinking. If you did a tissue study of such a plant, you'd see no difference under a microscope. Nor can anybody distinguish it by taste or scent. This sort of rigidity is impractical and again... snobbish.



That's an overgeneralization. (We're not discussing pesticides here.) A whole host of bacteria and fungi are very welcome in our gardens. They're literally what process organic nutrients and feed the plants. Without them the plants will starve and die. If the grow medium is well-oxygenated the beneficial micros will dominate the bad anerobic stuff. So, unless you can substantiate that synthetic nutrients specifically kill off the beneficials and leave the nasties to flourish... your statement has no logical foundation and should be ignored by those seeking advice.

If you CAN substantiate your claim, though, then I'd highly value and respect the information. Whatcha got?

Organic grow means free of pesticides or chemical ferts.You add chem ferts to a organic grow, from then on it's no longer organic.You see, a grow is either organic or it's not, there is no in between.
I do not claim that synthetic nutrients specifically kill off the beneficials, I say that they change the environment which makes bacteria and fungi change to adapt in this new environment.The change is usually in direction of becoming more pathogenic.
Excuse my bad English.

 

[pray4pistils]

First, what we do n Organics is feed the soil.....not the plant. The soil does that hence......the soil food web.

I realize this to be true. In fact, I'll just quote myself saying basically the same thing.

A whole host of bacteria and fungi are very welcome in our gardens. They're literally what process organic nutrients and feed the plants. Without them the plants will starve and die.

you fed the plants. A plant does not care where the NPK comes from....it is a plant.

EXACTLY! So, therefore how can the presence of chemical nutrients be considered "poison"?

In an outdoor garden the chances of long term damage depends on the amount of chemicals you apply.

This is always true no matter whether the "chemicals" are organic or synthetic.

I do not believe in combining the 2. Mother Nature perfected her way and it took 450 billion years. You are telling me you have done it in a few short years or man itself has accomplished that. LOL

Beliefs are beliefs but science is science. What I'm saying is that a plant will react positively to an optimized nutrient program whether it's considered "organic" or not. I'm also saying that the plant won't be "poisoned" (meaning damaged or compromised) by synthetic nutrients so long as those nutes are applied appropriately. As you said, the plants don't even know the difference.

 

[pray4pistils]

You add chem ferts to a organic grow, from then on it's no longer organic.You see, a grow is either organic or it's not, there is no in between.

I know that this is the accepted definition and reject it simply on the basis of common sense. It is based on an ideology rather than scientific basis. In an organic growing forum I would not argue this point. However, the person who started this thread wants objective information. So, I'm happy to provide it. Labels aside, a plant grown with a mix of organics and synthetics is likely to be superior quality than one that's been grown organic alone or synthetic alone.

I say that [synthetic nutrients] change the environment which makes bacteria and fungi change to adapt in this new environment.The change is usually in direction of becoming more pathogenic.

Adaption is the name of the game in the natural world. It's normal as seasons and environmental conditions change, when rain or snow arrive from different areas, etc. Mother Nature isn't nearly as fragile or rigid as you suggest. What evidence can you point to that suggests that microorganisms become more pathogenic in the presence of even the tiniest amounts of synthetic fertilizers?

 

[Dr_Tre]

"Mixing organics and synthetics is likely to produce superior quality buds" ???!
How did you come to this idea?There is no doubt at all that organic grown plants are way way better in taste and aroma.
Also plants do care if their nutrient substancies come from a chemical factory or from mother nature because the compounds of fertilizers do not exist in the wild (or exist in so tiny quantities that's not worth mentioning).So does flooding the crop with nitrates and nitrites change the microflora?You bet.Is it bad for the plants?May be.Is it bad for your health?Certainly.
Quality vs. quantity is one side of the question.Another one is natural life vs. chemical substitutes.I've already made my choice.

 

[pray4pistils]

"Mixing organics and synthetics is likely to produce superior quality buds" ???!

Here's my rationale on that. If you do a tissue study (with a microscope) you'll see no difference between a plant fed organically and one that's been sustained on chemical nutrients. That's why I don't buy this "poison" idea at ALL. You will see faster metabolisms in plants that are stress free, of course. Any time that a plant needs nutrients that aren't there it experiences stress.

On that note, synthetic nutrients can be applied and then absorbed in pretty much real time. Meanwhile, there's always a delay with organics. So, it's typically easier to get "superior quality" results when the man-made stuff is involved. Then again, the synth stuff isn't nearly as complete as what nature provides and it thusly is an imperfect substitute (when relied on alone).

There is no doubt at all that organic grown plants are way way better in taste and aroma.

We're in complete agreement here. That's why I value the presence and active function of organics in my garden (even though "chemicals" are also there). Organics make a fine base and completes the puzzle.

Also plants do care if their nutrient substancies come from a chemical factory or from mother nature because the compounds of fertilizers do not exist in the wild (or exist in so tiny quantities that's not worth mentioning).

After beneficial microorganisms digest organic matter and release absorbable nutrients, the compounds are the same. If they weren't the same the roots wouldn't take them up.

So does flooding the crop with nitrates and nitrites change the microflora?You bet.

I agree and I'm not advocating flooding the crop willy nilly. What I am saying is is that a careful and ecologically responsible mix of organic base + strategically used synthetic nutrients will result in "superior results". One can complement the other. This nearly militant one OR the other thing just isn't helpful. It's irrational.

Is it bad for the plants?May be.Is it bad for your health?Certainly.

Again, the increased yields and tissue analysis demonstrates that it's not bad for the plants. As for human health, the chemicals can be dissipated by feeding organically during the "flush" weeks. There's "certainly" nothing to fear.

I've already made my choice.

Yep, and that's all good. However, personal choices and beliefs are personal, but science is objective. Ideology should never be confused with or be accepted as an equal to science.

 

[Dr.Dank]

organic is a Chemical itself.

 

[B. Friendly]

except for General Hydroponics Flora series, everything else i have and they sell is organic. Not hard to be an organic grower, If i switched to GH's FloraNova series or their General Organics line i would be 100% organic and I would be growing the same as any soil grower. Don't let the Organic Hype fool ya.
http://www.generalhydroponics.com/blog/2009/10/29/download-the-general-organics-catalog/