All ears.

[MeltingPOT]

MaryJohn...the 90% used in the last 2 weeks has me confused...? If the nutes are still there, then why does the plant begin to show such deficiencies? I appreciate your time bro.
If I wanted to use bottled nutes, I'd continue to and wouldn't have this thread...chill a bit mang, I just wanna learn some shit...

Contra...I don't compute...If yer telling me that I have my head up my ass and that I am a brown nose then go fuck yourself...if I misread your haiku, than have a good day!

 

[maryjohn]

Remember, I said in living organic soil meltingpot. Too many salts, or some other condition that reduces the microherd will cause the media to compress if it can, leading to anoxic conditions and the conversion to ammonia, which goes into the air. I guess its about maximizing biomass? Imagine what happens if you pop all those tiny bubbles.

I would check out some of Dr. Ingham's videos on you tube. Short story is that the ion is bound inside a living being (microbes), and that being has a selectively permeable cell membrane, and other ways to hold on to nutes against the forces of diffusion (or it dies). It's there in the soil, but the plant can't get at it except by competing (someone eats someone, releasing protozoa poo and nobody gets to it before the plant) or by coöperating (plants trade sugar for nutes; yes, it's that crazy).

The basic unit of cellular energy is ATP - adenotriphosphate. yup, phosphorous!

And on and on.

I deleted the bottled nutes part, but it wasn't in anger. I really think the synthetic bottled nutes guys seem to do better than the organic bottled nutes guys, and i feel they are a waste of time in organics as of right now. They work, as far as I know, but why bother? I guess the health thing?

I think I should clarify that I don't believe MJ tastes good when grown in the same soil you use for garden veggies. If the soil is too rich from the start (FFOF?), those buds are destined to be crap, organic or not IMO. That's why I follow the LC mix recipe to the tee the, with a few exceptions. I'll be learning to reduce my amendments as I reuse it.

 

[jaykush]

Call me a snob or whatever, but I'd rather not smoke at all than smoke weed that doesn't taste right.

lmao haha, i feel the same way. but seriously turn that trash into hash haha. it will be much better.

JayKush, if you don't mind blessing us with a "real soil" recipe example, that'd be the shit! I know what you mean about smoking the real, and I hate to say it, but my herb falls into the 90% of pass herb for me...I need the funk...

thats the thing, there is no "recipe", the ultimate goal is to mimic fertile soil, actual soil, dirt, mother earth....and increase the fertility as much as you possibly can, add as much organic matter and strive for humus creation. then the plant will grow funk all by itself.

 

[C21H30O2]

my input: i used fox farm ocean forest cut with a very light coco based soil and it still burnt the shit out of my plants when I transplanted them to go into flower. I will never use the product again, just too much shit packed in the soil. Try roots organics soil if you want a store bought soil. Otherwise make your own. By a bag of roots to hold you over till your mix is done cooking.

 

[maryjohn]

lol I think we can almost all agree on one thing here...

 

[Crazy Composer]

The great, great, GREAT majority of indoor organic growers are NOT establishing self-contained organic ecosystems, as you'd find outdoors. In the outdoors, birds are shitting, bugs are shitting and dying, animals shitting, plant material is decomposing, etc. I applaud the indoor grower who can establish a true organic culture with various fauna shitting on their soil, and plant material decomposing, etc... but this is not going to be feasible for the GREAT majority of indoor growers.

That said... and hopefully understood... the best us indoor growers can do, is to establish a microherd in our pots and keep them happy long enough, and fed just enough to feed our plants until it's time to deny them their food at the end. Denying them access to a food source toward the end of flowering is essential in order to create the kind of starvation that forces plants to use up their stored elements and starches... neither of which we want to smoke in our product. FFOF being such a long-lasting provider of nutrients, makes it damn near impossible to cause starvation in the plants before harvest... meaning... you WILL be smoking too many starches and other stored elements. If you have ever smoked true connoisseur quality weed... you WILL NOT be happy smoking product with excess starch and nutrient still stored in the dry plant material. But this is relative... meaning... MANY people who grow pot have still never experienced the true, highest quality pot... so they will only have the best THEY have ever smoked to compare to. This means that FFOF bud may actually be the best pot in the world to some people. Until they get the opportunity to know there's better, much better smoke out there, they will consider FFOF bud the best ever. It's all relative.

 

[Crazy Composer]

idoreallytry, I also used Light Warrior when it first come onto the scene... it's, as far as I'm concerned, a great product for young plants because it's so, er, um, light in composition. As far as I remember, it's not really a significant source of nutrients, if at all... It's mostly for lightening up your other soil mixes. I figure it would be excellent for starting seeds in.

 

[idoreallytry]

idoreallytry, I also used Light Warrior when it first come onto the scene... it's, as far as I'm concerned, a great product for young plants because it's so, er, um, light in composition. As far as I remember, it's not really a significant source of nutrients, if at all... It's mostly for lightening up your other soil mixes. I figure it would be excellent for starting seeds in.

yeah i figure from now on i will use a lil bit of ffof with light warrior for starting seeds in the beer cups and then go to pro mix and coco for my veg and flowering meduims,,,,thx u can look thru all my threads i always had a hard time flushing when i used ffof now i know why kkk+++ friend,,,peace

 

[montanaorganics]

You want the EWC or compost, at least, in your medium for the humus ultimately. Tea takes a tiny amount of it so do both.

Crazy Composer- I have grown in FFOF, Roots Organics, LC's mix coco, and now my own custom blend centered around Roots. Their have been no discernable tastes from any of these. I disagree about their being any difference between tea guano and topfeeding short of the degree of control you seek. I personally believe guano breaks down faster and finer in a 3 day tea, and once you pour it on its no different than top feeding and then watering. Tomato Tomatoe Whatever.

I give my plants nitrogen based organics right up to harvest. Alfalfa, Guano, EWC N, N, N. Sure I slack off with it but it makes zero difference in cure or flavor, or chlorophyll. I have flushed and not flushed, difference is in-discernable.

My last plants through the same system turned out like dog shit. Nothing changed except I used dolomite lime. I believe its genetics. Those nasty original NL's just have lots of clorophyll. It's taken a week longer cure to get to the point where I'm not ashamed to pass a bowl to a buddy. Normally my medicine tastes better than candy.

And everybody on here is growing weed. Why the need to be egotistical about it? Sorry, but I have little respect for people who act better than their peers.

 

[maryjohn]

Now CC, let us assume you have had better weed than me. I just haven't grown, touched, or imagined the real thing. Fine, I will concede that. But I have an ok palate and nose, trained on fine wines from an old gig. So I think your are perhaps not the only one in the room with anything to say on the matter. For an oenophile, terroir is very important. Riesling from NZ, the Mosel valley, and Washington state are all going to express different traits, identifiable repeatedly and consistently by a trained palate. If you grow weed in a soil too rich you will get crap weed. Try adding lots chicken shit to your soil - even outside if you want - and you will get crap weed. And even though the palates I worked with were always better than mine, I would definitely be able to point out the crap weed.

A good organic soil with the right amount of ferts will not spoil your weed. Indoors, outdoors, whatever.

I don't need to have a living ecosystem in my house to cycle nutrients. I have a wormbin and bokashi bins. Food and plant wastes go from kitchen and plant to bokashi bin to worm bin to soil and back up the plant and into the kitchen and bong.... I pay for food scraps, why not use them.

that's my ecosystem. Disjointed, but partially functioning. It gives me plenty of organic matter, and microbes, reduces my trash, and allows me to flush from day 1.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Don't go to wines, either... I got that one covered. Which slopes of the Mosel Valley? Which side of the river do you prefer? I've had Reislings that would satisfy a picky Kaiser. The irony is that you and I would probably get along just fine in real life... But when it comes to weed... well... let's just say I know what I'm talking about even more than with wines. My wine dealer knows what I like and orders special just for my tastes, which, as you might have guessed, are fairly fastidious. Back in the days when I owned and operated a newspaper, a drink was named after me at the local coffeeshop... "the Aristocrat"... Because I was known for being particularly particular with what I liked. I was a restaurant reviewer for the same reasons... So here I am now, well-known for my ability to discern and report on what makes the best pot in the world the best pot in the world, and I'm being challenged by someone who feels they are qualified because they appreciate wine? I'd know if you were coming from a place where I should pay close attention, after all, you don't get to do what I do unless you know who to listen to in the first place. I have a very open ear to any good information... But I must say, your information seems a bit misplaced... good-meaning, but misplaced... close to the truth, but not quite there. I can't remember who it was, but there was someone whose organic theories you agree with and teach to others... some member on this site... can't remember... But I remember he was saying that no one was really growing organically unless there was a food web identical to the outdoors. And he was using a bed style of growing where each bed was individually composted after every crop, etc. This is entirely impractical for most growers, and it's certainly not the only way to grow organically indoors. May I suggest opening your mind to a wider array of possibilities? There's more than one way to skin a cat, as the mainland Koreans say. What I'm saying here, generally, is that there are times when flushing organic soil makes complete sense. There are also soils that are pointless to flush.

BTW, my favorite wines are fortified wines, mainly Tawny Ports of at least 20 years of age... aged in white oak of course. Vintage Ports are okay, but I find you need to spend at least $100, at LEAST to get something worth writing home about... you know... the ones that stain your entire digestive tract a deep purple because they were aged on top of their own skins. YUM! There are also some killer Madeiras out there. People usually use them for cooking, but I LOVE them stand-alone, as long as they're done by a vintner who gives a shit about keeping them hot in the attic, in oak, for long enough. There are tons of terrible Ports and Madeiras, too... just visit the local liquor store or grocery store to find those.

Ever try "K Syrah"? A Washington State wine, possibly no longer available. K Syrah “Phil Lane” — Walla Walla Valley... one my of all-time favorite reds... and from Washington, no less! Not a big fan of Frenchie wines... I like to drink while drinking more than while eating. Chile has become interesting, and Australia has that big, in-your-face flavor you can expect from American wineries.

I'm going off on a tangent... wine is another subject I am very interested in. I love drinking it, shopping for it, talking about it, reading about it (I own several wine encyclopedias that I read as I enjoy my wine), and I even make my own wine sometimes. I enjoy the finer points of the finer points of the finer things in life. The little things that make life so much more fun, including exquisitely grown marijuana, stanky cheeses, and other such sensual indulgences, within reason.

If you, maryjohn, still don't want to admit that there are, indeed situations where flushing an organic soil makes complete sense... then please, just agree to disagree and we can call it a day.

 

[MeltingPOT]

Well thanks Montana Orangics! I may add some compost to Promix, then use WormTea...then i'll add some guanos later and see how we do....

You two keep bickering and I'll swear that you're crushing on one another.... LMFAO

 

[Crazy Composer]

 

[montanaorganics]

You know the saying about as many ways to grow as there are growers is totally true and i think the same is true of taste. Every thing i smoke that tastes sweet the wife says is dirt/eaarthy. Drives me nuts hehe. Except bagberry. We both agree if you like smoking berry captain crunch, then bagberry is perfect for you. Hehe i think we would both prefer smoking berry skoal over trying that crap again.

 

[maryjohn]

Cc, it's basic science I'm after, and knowledge, not the pissing contest over palates or a deity to worship so I can take his word for it instead of thinking. Sounds like you are my better in all aspects. Fine. I was attempting to bring up something I am half good at (not an aristocrat like you). My purpose was to convince you you were not talking to ants, but to people capable of understanding what you are saying and maybe even teaching you something. I would not dream of challenging you superiority, just the level of my inferiority.

I believe you made a half assed attempt (buying a bag of not organic soil) at letting the microherd manage plant nutrition, and while I appreciate how knowledgeable and experienced you are, please don't tell people you can't grow great weed in truly organic soil in which the gardener has no control over nutrient delivery. FFOF is a poor example. It's got triple phosphate, and I don't know what else. Not organic.

We shall agree to disagree, as we shall never reach an accord. Beyond the personal friction, we have fundamentally different definitions for "organic growing".

oh, and for the mosels, I'm not that educated, give me anything that isn't cloying and smells like a gas station. And I am the kind of person who enjoys Chinon. Not so keen on big wine, but maybe you like what you can buy.

scotch I don't like too smooth.

cigars I pretended to like for a while.

pot I'm big on the nose, actually not so picky about the smoke. Don't like citrus or floral or perfumed.

there you have it, I'm not telling you my taste in women.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I believe you made a half assed attempt (buying a bag of not organic soil) at letting the microherd manage plant nutrition

Yes! That's exactly the mistake I made in buying FFOF. I figured I could cut out all the mixing and matching I usually do to create the organic mix I need... And I am paying for it now, because it was a mistake to try and take the easy road. Mistakes, admitted, are the longest steps, leading to the top the fastest. Make mistakes, indeed, but know why the action was a mistake. Stumble... but stumble forward. I make mistakes regularly... Without them, we remain stagnant. It's my many mistakes over the years that have lead me to a very strong understanding of what works and what does not work.

Rezdog, who I have a close, sometimes stormy, but always interesting relationship with, tells me I should stick with one method so my smoke always tastes as good as it does when I have things perfectly dialed in. To this suggestion I always tell him, "I'm always trying something different, how can I tell others what works if I don't know what does not work?" Therefore, I will always try new methods, and I will stumble across ideas and methods that do not work.... and I will be able to share with other growers what has worked, and what has not worked. Willingly making mistakes is what keeps me learning. Sticking to one, successful method leads to stagnation.... I am not in the business of stagnation, I am in the business of cannabis growing education, and that takes sacrifice and quite frankly... some balls. It's not a comforting feeling to move on from a method that produces the best smoke I've ever smoked, just to see if another method produces something better. But that's what I do, and I don't see an end to this experimentation any time in the near future.

BTW, I don't think of this so much as bickering, as I do a constructive conversation. And a bit of fun, to be honest.

 

[maryjohn]

yeah, I was enjoying it too CC. Thanks for doing that experiment. Sorry you paid so dearly. The hash should be smokable though. I just scrogged a mazar-i-sharif plant that smells a bit like cleaning fluid. You wanna talk nasty smoke? I can't wait to cry. Nasty waxy leaves. Not sure if I should breed it or chuck it. I was thinking crossing it with a sativa dom just to see. It's very cold hardy. Anyway I may be making hash too.

So what's your next method? I'd like to see you do LC mix with nutes mixed in, just water from the start, and let me know if I have to settle for knowing I have a rough palate.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I'll be returning to what I know works for the next run... because I want to smoke again. But I never know what inspirations and ideas will lead me astray to new and uncharted territory in the future. With this last experiment I've learned not to stray too far from a light organic mix. I want to stay away from feeding ANYTHING by way of mixing nutes with water... The ease of never mixing nutes in water is way too nice to give up on. I'm thinking future experiments will have something to do with top-feeding. All I know for sure is... I won't ever stop trying new methods, no matter how satisfied I am with what I'm doing at any given time.

Here's a corny fact... when I first started growing pot, I had a dream featuring the perfect bud. It was bubblegum, and tasted/smelled just like bubblegum should. Although I don't remember smoking it in the dream, I got a sense from this dream that this was the absolute gold standard for what bud should be. This bud floated in the blackness, like the only important thing in existence. To this day I consider this bud the best bud I've ever experienced... and it was just a dream. I know, however, that the quality of that bud is attainable in the real world, and I have been striving to achieve this standard ever since. My goal is to standardize a method in which the dream quality is what I can expect from every crop. Corny, I know, but this is what has helped drive me to that end all this time... and I have never shared this dream before, besides with my wife. Perhaps the glass of Cold River Vodka I have been sipping on tonight has loosened my lips a bit. If you get the chance to try Cold River Vodka, and enjoy the world's finer spirits, don't pass the chance up. It is considered the best vodka produced in America... I agree. cc

 

[VerdantGreen]

interesting discussion, whilst i respect mj's assertions of the way organics works, i dont think senescience can be relied upon to rid plants of excess nutrients at the end because we are not growing the plant in its natural (seeded) form.

i recently had the pleasure to grow the UK cheese clone. i grew two plants in the same soil, my standard organic mix EXCEPT that i added 2 parts coco for one of the plants, so the nutrients (guanos, seaweed meal and rock dusts) were reduced by about 16%. not very much you may think.

here is the plant without the coco - so the richer soil mix.
8 weeks

9 weeks

and here is the plant in the soil lightened by coco
8 weeks

9+ weeks

you can see that the one in the lighter soil finished much more 'flushed' than the plant in the richer soil, and whilst both were great smoke, the second one again was more aromatic and clearer tasting.

i got to a point where i was growing good plants that were finishing nicely and then i started reducing the ferts in the soil mix to see how far i could safely reduce them without starving the plant, of course different genetics can require more or less, that is all part of getting the plant dialed in, and the only way to find out for sure is to go too far - but i agree with CC that constant tweeks and experimentation is the way to learn as much as possible about your plants and the soil they like

V.

 

[maryjohn]

I agree for the most part Verdant. The only real difference is, I am after soil that is not too rich and heavy from the start, but still has enough resources to support the plant start to finish. An obvious disadvantage, as most readers may be thinking, is that I can't change course very easily. I have to actually grow out a plant to know if it worked, and it's almost impossible to change course mid grow.

The assumption I'm challenging is that the only way to get the flavor benefits of a not overfed plant is to flush it. If a large amount of nitrates is introduced into the medium (guano is full of urea, no?), you have a problem to solve. No nitrates, no problem. It's just like oregano. If poo is to be used, it's given to the worms, not the plants.


But like I said earlier, I'm quite convinced that your brand of organics works. It's the standard. I've seen and tasted. I'm tinkering too, remember, only the potted plants are a fraction of what I'm doing. I'm amazed at how much i took for granted outside, that can trip you up inside. I'll be discussing from this position for a while - if it doesn't work out I will happily go back to flooding my soil with nitrates - but only inside. Outside, I'm never going back. It will take conceding that organic growing can't truly be practiced indoors without having giant containers like microbeman's.

what it comes down to, is that I used to think about what to spray or add to soil to give the nutes required when I had a problem. Now if I see a problem, I try to think "why isn't my microherd working with the plant?". There are tons of nutes in most established soil, they are just locked away inside creatures. If I can unlock them but not too fast, I am fine. I'm convinced that means having very good wormcastings (my topdress of choice). That little bit of bloodmeal in my mix - by the 3rd month of growth, how is that going to cause me problems? What any conventional gardener should be asking is why the hell did I not run out of N? I suggest it's because I am relying on a completely distinct delivery system for N.

Nothing I have said above should be taken to mean cannabis will taste right if grown in soil that is too rich. If food sources and conditions for the microbes are wrong (overly generous, stingy, or skewed to one type), that will be reflected in the plant. A good place to start, I'm convinced, is LC mix #1, found right here.

And this thread has inspired me to try modulating nutrient availability via the water supply: I've noticed dryer conditions lead to symptoms of deficiency, I'm assuming because it slows things down in the soil. Since using plant nannies, I've noticed I have more access to N than I did when the soil used to dry out.

One more note: I think we should avoid looking down on each other's tastes. CC's description of bubblegum bud, which sounds awful to me (I hate most sweets), is his holy grail. And he likes vodka. If you think of the opposite of those things, that's what I'm into. You, reading this now, you may have totally different tastes, less specific, more specific, high, low, whatever. My point is, you want things in life that make you happy, not things that impress others.

CC, you know, the romantic in me likes to believe that terroir could develop in the MJ field if only we had access to the soil, and that true expression of it would blow our minds far beyond these primitive mixes we make.