What Male to use in a cross?

[englishrick]

i wish you guys would provide a more realistic approach............this is just gettin silly........especialy with the characterization of system reliability when handling redundancy allocation problems you guys oviously have no clue...........

consider repairable series-parallel systems comprised of components subjected to corrective maintenance actions with failure-repair cycles modeled by renewal processes where "multiobjective optimization" is applied..........

since increasing the number of redundancies not only enlarges system reliability but also its associated costs..........

a multiobjective genetic algorithm is coupled with discrete event simulation and its solutions present the compromise between system reliability and cost..

please consider it.........

think of repairable systems subjected to perfect repairs......... what i say might be valuable tool for the decision maker when choosing the system design....

in the selection step,,,,,,, the relation of dominance among individuals in the current population is evaluated according to their penlized fitness values...... on the other hand, the nondominated individuals continue and are candidae solutions that may be stored....

imo we need to walk many many roads and we need many friends to walk them roads with us, then old man time wont catch up with all of us, an the comon goal of man will be achived remember a beautifull mind

imo.. peeps cant expect a kush to stay a kush "forever" if peeps take a bunch of seeds out of the mountains and breed with it indoors under a sh11ty HPS. the only way to retain novel traits after an enviroment collaps is ......N-Vishon,,,,,i wish he were here now

 

[3dDream]

englishrick - Really dude?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

That saddens me. A company with a monopoly in their home market to grow as they wish, with the financing, equipment, and skills to truly step things up to a new level, and for the sake of the price of some plane tickets and a small purchasing budget, they ignore, quite literally, all the potential the worldwide cannabis gene pool has to offer.

Um, what? They bought from the foundation of all the drug type cultivars. No doubt in my mind. My only disappointment is that they only have to pay off one guy for the whole of our pool. This speaks to our failures more than his successes IMO. Or maybe my glass is always half empty

And if in 5 or 10 years, they change their mind, who knows how much genetic information will have been irrevocably lost?

Not sure what they'd be changing their minds on. But any genetic information that is lost is OUR fault. All of our faults. We're the one's interested in the drug pool and it's not in big pharm's interest to maintain it.

We may see the day where the cure for a crippling disease is down to the fact that a few "hardened criminals" had the foresight to keep a few thousand beans from some isolated village in their deep freeze. Madness.

Or something more likely: like we lost the cures to many diseases due to the failure to maintain most of the diversity of the ecosystems of this world. Cannabis is just a small part of it, but the part I care so personally about.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

GitT,
Who said there would be more failures later in the program? I didn't say that, did I say that?

Hmm, that's what I was getting from you. "In later generations, as more lines are discarded, the number of plants for evaluation per surviving lines are able to be increased."

The last sentence is correct. Selfing causes a deficit (a lack of) herterozygous plants (a deficit of heterozygous plants = inbreeding depression). Crossing these lines helps to eliminate that deficit (creates more heterozygous plants). More heterozygous plants equals vigor (heterosis), and creates a buffer when introducing said lines into new environments.-T

yeah, you're SO right. I just reread it and it made perfect sense. Sorry about that, my confusion is often drug induced. My bad.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

i wish you guys would provide a more realistic approach............this is just gettin silly........especialy with the characterization of system reliability when handling redundancy allocation problems you guys oviously have no clue...........

consider repairable series-parallel systems comprised of components subjected to corrective maintenance actions with failure-repair cycles modeled by renewal processes where "multiobjective optimization" is applied..........

since increasing the number of redundancies not only enlarges system reliability but also its associated costs..........

a multiobjective genetic algorithm is coupled with discrete event simulation and its solutions present the compromise between system reliability and cost..

please consider it.........

think of repairable systems subjected to perfect repairs......... what i say might be valuable tool for the decision maker when choosing the system design....

Are you a super clever troll by the funniest man ever to step foot in this forum? Or are you just retarded? Either way, I don't think anyone wants anything to do with you. PLEASE refrain from derailing this thread further. Go post something in the Allard thread and I'll deal with you there...

Try to notice the post count devil spawn. (666)

 

[Blimey]

GitT - Maybe I overplayed my first point - I don't know what variety of germplasm they acquired from their one source, but I still feel that there is more out there they probably have missed.

Papua New Guinea strikes me as an example - so many examples of splendid isolation - and thus genetic differentiation, yet how many cultivars/strains do we know of from that neck of the woods? Two that I can think of.

The last two points, I think, are, as you say, a case of whether you think the glass is half empty or half full. But if we lose genes, we'll never know if they were of scientific value.

We are of one mind, I think re diversity of all species, and our passion for that one special one.

Thanks for your insights.

 

[englishrick]

its funny when peeps put me down,,,i do it fo my peoplez,,iiiii

 

[VerdantGreen]

well im still here and trying to keep up - the last few pages have some great insight!

would love to hear someone talk some more about the limitations of backcrossing.
what is an example of a good backcross and a bad one ??

as far as gw pharm as far as i know for sativex they grow 2 strains/clones - one is hig in cbd and the other is high in thc. these are mixed to form sativex.
cbd has strong anti-phsycotic properties (which is interesting given that weed was upgraded in the uk on the basis that is can cause schizophrenia.)

V.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

VG

FWIW GW Pharm created those chemovars. They put in the work to make them, and to do it they used an extensive selfing campaign. Doesn't have much to do with what I said about them purchasing clones/germplasm.

Backcrossing is often used to pull a simple singular trait out of one line (donor parent) and add it to an already nearly ideal, relatively true-breeding genotype (recurrent parent).

 

[englishrick]

you a super clever...the funniest man ever to step foot in this forum


are you just retarded?

Try to notice the post count devil spawn. (666)

so ,,,,firsly,,,thankyou,,,,,,and yes comedy genuis too

but you do know im autistic,,,,,^^^,,,i cant actualy use a pen an paper ,,i cant even hold a pen in my hand how you do....if i didnt laugh myself to sleep everynight thinkn how the world is going to sh1t but my brothers are saved,, i might take offence to your retard comment....oh the irony

 

[furious george]

GitT

I don't understand who these "official bodies" are. What big agriculture company has been working with cannabis for decades?

refereing to GW Pharma:

They bought from the foundation of all the drug type cultivars. No doubt in my mind.

FWIW GW Pharm created those chemovars. They put in the work to make them, and to do it they used an extensive selfing campaign.

So you did have some idea that "official bodies" have been working with cannabis. Ok GW has only been going 8-9 years, but many other institutions have conducted academic work that involves cultivation going back to the 70's

Quoted from the paper I reference again below (link: http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/91/6/966#ABOT-91-06-10-HILLIG2) : "Numerous biochemical studies of Cannabis plants grown from achenes ("seeds") of known geographic origin have been reported (Fetterman et al., 1971; Fetterman and Turner, 1972; Nordal and Braenden, 1973; Small and Beckstead, 1973a, b; Turner et al., 1973; Turner and Hadley, 1973a, 1974; Boucher et al., 1974; Holley et al., 1975; Small et al., 1975; Rowan and Fairbairn, 1977; Beutler and Der Marderosian, 1978; Clark and Bohm, 1979; Turner et al., 1979; Fournier and Paris, 1980; Hemphill et al., 1980; Veszki et al., 1980; de Meijer et al., 1992)."

Sorry, but you wanted references my pedantic chum

And where will the Agribusiness boys gather germplasm?

Taken from A chemotaxonomic analysis of cannabinoid variation in Cannabis1 (Cannabaceae)

Karl W. Hillig2 and Paul G. Mahlberg [SIZE=-1] Department of Biology, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana 47405 USA [/SIZE]
Received for publication June 19, 2003. Accepted for publication February 12, 2004.

"Germplasm collection
A diverse collection of 157 Cannabis accessions of known geographic origin was obtained from breeders, researchers, gene banks, and law enforcement agencies. Each accession consisted of a small packet of viable achenes. Passport data, accession codes, and the assignment of accessions to putative taxa are published elsewhere (Hillig, 2004). Industrial hemp strains selected for low THC production were excluded from this investigation. Voucher specimens are deposited in the Indiana University herbarium (IND). The a priori assignment of accessions to species is based on a multivariate analysis of allozyme allele frequencies and on geographic origins, without regard to cannabinoid content (Hillig, 2004). Assignment of accessions to infraspecific taxa (biotypes) is primarily based on geographic origins, morphological traits, and presumed purpose of cultivation."

Doesn't look like they have any problems obtaining or maintaing germplasm. I think you guys can relax.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Yep. Looks like 157 is the magic number. Don't worry guys law enforcement was there to pass on our germplasm. It's all safe in that Indiana herbarium. Such a perfect place to maintain populations. Time to relax guys. Have you seen the cans of joints the federal government provides to its MMJ patients? And that fine quality product, ahem trash, was grown in Mississippi. Good thing the IND is there to save us.

 

[furious george]

You were talking like there weren't any "official bodies" working with cannabis breeding or germplasm collection/storage. I just pointed out a couple that are. And that I believe they have already made a pretty good start in collecting germplasm.

157 (including 89 Sativa, 62 indica) accessions including landrace strains gathered from Afghanistan, Pakistan, China, India, Nepal, Thailand, Gambia, Lesotho, Nigeria, South Africa, Swaziland, Japan, South Korea, Russia, Hungary, and others. That's a very diverse selection they have, covering an extremely wide variety of biotypes and chemotypes (read the paper, you should find it a reassuring read). Any breeders here have that kind of a genetic palate to work from?

But you're probably right. The future depends on you guys OPing some old Afghani line, or line breeding the blend of Sk#1, NL and Haze that makes up a significant portion of the genepool in the hands of amatures. Go Team Hack!

 

[3dDream]

Sativex is made using two strains of cannabiss which GW bought from Dutch-based researchers Hortipharm more than a decade ago.

This should help...

http://pharmexec.findpharma.com/pha.../ArticleStandard/Article/detail/600049?ref=25

 

[VerdantGreen]

VG

Backcrossing is often used to pull a simple singular trait out of one line (donor parent) and add it to an already nearly ideal, relatively true-breeding genotype (recurrent parent).

thanks GitT so thats a 'good' back-cross.

presumably the 'bad' backcross is trying to use backcrossing when attempting to create a seedline from a clone - in this case then selfing and testing progeny would be a better way?

what is it that makes backcrossing lead to trouble further don the line - as tom mentioned ?

thanks,
V.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

FG-

Are you aware that Indiana isn't maintaining all that germplasm? This fact seems to be beyond your awareness. Indiana doesn't have the space and resources to properly maintain all those accessions. The study has absolutely nothing to do with that. Big deal, they grew out a few of each accession once for chemotaxonomic analysis.

And GW Pharm is the only example you can come up with? Well then I guess we DO matter because they gathered their germplasm to a very special drug cannabis breeder.

Don't worry Tom, you can stop maintaining your afghan lines. These guys in Indiana collected 10. Looks like you're not needed Get real.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

VG-

Backcrossing is mostly useful for simply inherited traits. It becomes more difficult when you're trying to incorporate a recessive trait. This requires a full-sib mating to ensure homozygous recessives are used. If not, your trait of interest would be masked at every cross to the recurrent parent.

Also, if your recurrent parent isn't very truebreeding already the resulting generations segregate. Another drawback is that you can only incorporate a single trait at a time. If you're looking to gather more than one trait it's more effective to use other methods.

 

[englishrick]

"multiobjective optimization" is the best method to use for everything,,,,,,,

 

[Kaneh]

I'd love some links on this Or are you just pulling this out of thin air and gut feelings? Welcome to icmag.

Welcome to the internet, people like some facts to back up conjecture. Figured you were familiar with the gameplan

I'd like to see some facts to back up what you're saying!
(and you're saying lot, LOL)
How do you know what genes GW Pharm, etc. has?
Agriculture, Pharma and tobacco is big business, I'm sure they also have plans if pot becomes leagal.

...But it doesn't help us if THEY have the genes!
Hmmm... *planning seedbank job*

PS.
This thread is like a good movie, it has drama, comedy, action, suspense and is pretty artsy(englishrick), just the way I like it!
...But who's the bad guy???
...plot thickens...

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I know when what and where GW Pharm got their germplasm because there's been dozens of articles written on the subject. It's called google folks, it ain't that hard

Maybe big pharma do have plans if pot becomes legal but until then it's still illegal for them to be in possession of marijuana. That includes seeds. If they have/are looking into marijuana they'd require special licenses and theoretically we'd know about it. Kind of like how we know all about GW Pharm and Hortapharm BV. If you guys think monsanto has dozens of greenhouses filled to the brim with landraces and other cultivars simply bidding their time until legalization, you're kidding yourselves.