ahahaha, this place is quick...
... the Chinese should be envious...
... the Chinese should be envious...
What Male to use in a cross?
- Thread starter groady-ho
- Start date
Back back and forth we go
First off I have to ask you why you've never conducted anything like this in real life. Surely it's been brewing in the back of your head for years now. You know it's been itching, time to scratch.
I still don't know about the whole 40 for evaluation idea. Something about it rubs me wrong. It makes sense on paper, but I think real world experience will show that you'll never find the perfect individual who is homozygous for all the traits of interest. The thing is "real" breeders are looking at probably one single trait that they're monitoring the segregation on. It's a lot easier to take good pure homozygous stock that breeds true for nearly trait of interest and maybe look for a particular color of seed. Then I agree, it would be easy to look at 40 and see if the color is segregating. But with us we're taking a muddled soupy mess and trying to make something out of it. What do you do when the lines that breed true for increased resin production segregate like crazy on yield, flavor, quality of high, and bract size?
And I'm not sure what you mean on the idea of OPing or bulk crossing the surviving lines to eliminate the deficit of heterozygous plants from selfing. Hmmm, not following you on that one. Good discussion tho, now we just need someone to come in here and crap on both of us
First off I have to ask you why you've never conducted anything like this in real life. Surely it's been brewing in the back of your head for years now. You know it's been itching, time to scratch.
I still don't know about the whole 40 for evaluation idea. Something about it rubs me wrong. It makes sense on paper, but I think real world experience will show that you'll never find the perfect individual who is homozygous for all the traits of interest. The thing is "real" breeders are looking at probably one single trait that they're monitoring the segregation on. It's a lot easier to take good pure homozygous stock that breeds true for nearly trait of interest and maybe look for a particular color of seed. Then I agree, it would be easy to look at 40 and see if the color is segregating. But with us we're taking a muddled soupy mess and trying to make something out of it. What do you do when the lines that breed true for increased resin production segregate like crazy on yield, flavor, quality of high, and bract size?
And I'm not sure what you mean on the idea of OPing or bulk crossing the surviving lines to eliminate the deficit of heterozygous plants from selfing. Hmmm, not following you on that one. Good discussion tho, now we just need someone to come in here and crap on both of us
furious george
New member
I think it's admirable that amature/closet breeders are doing what they can to improve and preserve the cannabis genepool as best as they can. But I think it would be more than a little egotistical to think that these amature/closet breeders are eroding the cannabis genepool or conversely are it's best hope for survival.
Natural stocks are still out there and hybrids can be untangled for their desireable traits if you have the numbers or the tech.
Big Agri business have developed incredibly impressive techniques for genotyping, phenotyping and even accurately predicting the outcomes of crosses. It's only a matter of time before they apply these methods to cannabis on a significant scale (I'm sure many will debate that point!) and when they do we'll see big advances.
Keep breeding away, whether you're hacking or trying to follow good principals, enjoy what you're doing but don't worry about saving the genepool etc. We're all just playing compared to the Agribusiness boys.
Natural stocks are still out there and hybrids can be untangled for their desireable traits if you have the numbers or the tech.
Big Agri business have developed incredibly impressive techniques for genotyping, phenotyping and even accurately predicting the outcomes of crosses. It's only a matter of time before they apply these methods to cannabis on a significant scale (I'm sure many will debate that point!) and when they do we'll see big advances.
Keep breeding away, whether you're hacking or trying to follow good principals, enjoy what you're doing but don't worry about saving the genepool etc. We're all just playing compared to the Agribusiness boys.
And where will the Agribusiness boys gather germplasm?
Back and forth and round and round
In later generations, as more lines are discarded, the number of plants for evaluation per surviving lines are able to be increased.
Simultaneous selection (several traits per generation) based around the non-formal "breeder's preference" is in fact a very commonly applied practice in plant breeding.
One of the main reasons to develop several lines is because we know that several will likely segregate like crazy still, we'll be ditching those and keeping the best.
Selfing lines creates a deficit of heterozygous plants (inbreeding depression) measured in comparison with the Hardy-Weinberg frequency. Crossing them helps to eliminate that deficit.
I've never done anything like this because I was too busy open pollinating inbred lines, hehe. Because I've had no reason to develop lines that would excel in the indoor environment/ yield per sq ft etc before. If I needed more yield from my lines outdoors in the past, I would simply grow more plants - problem solved. But new challenges await and yes, I've been throwing ideas around in my head about it for a while and look forward to seeing how it works out. Place your bets
In later generations, as more lines are discarded, the number of plants for evaluation per surviving lines are able to be increased.
Simultaneous selection (several traits per generation) based around the non-formal "breeder's preference" is in fact a very commonly applied practice in plant breeding.
One of the main reasons to develop several lines is because we know that several will likely segregate like crazy still, we'll be ditching those and keeping the best.
Selfing lines creates a deficit of heterozygous plants (inbreeding depression) measured in comparison with the Hardy-Weinberg frequency. Crossing them helps to eliminate that deficit.
I've never done anything like this because I was too busy open pollinating inbred lines, hehe. Because I've had no reason to develop lines that would excel in the indoor environment/ yield per sq ft etc before. If I needed more yield from my lines outdoors in the past, I would simply grow more plants - problem solved. But new challenges await and yes, I've been throwing ideas around in my head about it for a while and look forward to seeing how it works out. Place your bets
furious george
New member
I'm imagining that as harsh as prohibition has been, researchers will still find ample stocks out there. I've done a fair bit of travelling and there is no shortage of what you might call landrace strains in the Indian subcontinent, S.E. Asia, South America, many regions in the African continent, and many more regions of the world. The germplasm in the hands of most amature/closet breaders tends to stem from Skunk #1, Haze, NL varieties, and Afghanis. Erode or advance that all you want. I'm not entirely clear where the loss to the general cannabis genepool is occuring.
Well,the strainhunters arrived first...
The introduction of femenized seeds is going to create a "minimal" impact,according to franco.gh...
furious george
New member
Well,the strainhunters arrived first...
The introduction of femenized seeds is going to create a "minimal" impact,according to franco.gh...
Strainhunters, lol.
But so long as these feminised seeds aren't exported en masse to every corner of the traditional cannabis globe, the impact will be minimal. What closet growers are doing doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of global canabis. Prohibition and bad breeding have not made that big of an impact in the Himalayas or the Congo basin, the original germplasm is still out there. Pioneering hippies gathering seed in the 60's and 70's didn't get everything there is to get, and I just don't see how closet weed warriors and seed hacks will save or destroy the genepool.
There's plenty of plants out there in the world and I'm sure academic institutions and licenced agribusiness already have significant seed stocks. Looking at other plant lines that have been worked by agricultural breeders, I don't see too much to worry about with cannabis.
Tom
What makes you think that in later generations more lines wouldn't make the cut?
Can you further your idea of OPing or bulk crossing the remaining lines? Would you do that even if the goal was to make hybrids or would you individually test their specific combining ability?
btw- uh, get to work on some indoor shit. I might not make it to Cali for a few years and even then i'll still be growing indoors. You gatta hop on board, indoor growers aren't going anywhere my friend.
Furious George
Your views strike me as rather naive. If you (edited for mistake)think what we call landraces have been perfectly maintained and frozen in time, well, I find that laughable. You say hybrids can be untangled with numbers but how do we untangle the genes that have been lost? Why are you sure that academic institutions and licensed agricompanies have significant seed stocks. I'd love some links on this Or are you just pulling this out of thin air and gut feelings? Welcome to icmag.
What makes you think that in later generations more lines wouldn't make the cut?
Can you further your idea of OPing or bulk crossing the remaining lines? Would you do that even if the goal was to make hybrids or would you individually test their specific combining ability?
btw- uh, get to work on some indoor shit. I might not make it to Cali for a few years and even then i'll still be growing indoors. You gatta hop on board, indoor growers aren't going anywhere my friend.
Furious George
Your views strike me as rather naive. If you (edited for mistake)think what we call landraces have been perfectly maintained and frozen in time, well, I find that laughable. You say hybrids can be untangled with numbers but how do we untangle the genes that have been lost? Why are you sure that academic institutions and licensed agricompanies have significant seed stocks. I'd love some links on this
Or are you just pulling this out of thin air and gut feelings? Welcome to icmag.furious george
New member
What genes do you worry are being lost?
It would be nice (if unlikely?) to hear from a representative of a company such as GW Pharma (developers of Sativex), who are the nearest thing we have here in the UK to legitimate cannabis Big Agro/Big Pharma.
Are they collecting landrace seed from around the world for their R&D? Are they storing landrace seed Millenium-Bank-style for future research? They certainly have a few PhD's there, and must be aware of such issues and concerns.
Or are they just big-scale closet hacks, playing with Dutch/Canadian seedbank genetics?
Do people feel that their legitimacy carries with it a burden of reponsibility for such issues. Or are they only in it for the money?
Good thread, gentleman (and ladies), despite the occasional....interruptions.
Are they collecting landrace seed from around the world for their R&D? Are they storing landrace seed Millenium-Bank-style for future research? They certainly have a few PhD's there, and must be aware of such issues and concerns.
Or are they just big-scale closet hacks, playing with Dutch/Canadian seedbank genetics?
Do people feel that their legitimacy carries with it a burden of reponsibility for such issues. Or are they only in it for the money?
Good thread, gentleman (and ladies), despite the occasional....interruptions.
furious george
New member
No I don't think that 'Landraces have been perfectly maitained and frozen in time'. I think they've been loosely cultivated in their regions of orign. and they're still there in abundance. as they were in the 60's and 70's.
that was poorly phrased. Official bodies globally have been working with cannabis for decades (and it's not unreasonable to assume that they maintain seed stocks of these). They have access to all the seeds the cannabis community have access to as well as all the many varieties that can be found on a botany field trip to any traditional cannabis region.
I didn't realise ICmag posts were subject to such high standards as posting references, but I'll try not to turn into englishrickI'd love some links on this
the quantam world will fuk with your mind,,,so will i,,,dont let little old me distract you from your massive problems in the visable world,,,,
i get into selfing, suddenly im a wanker!!,,,,,but then 1 of you gahdoos get into selfing and your bringin the moshiach,,,,,laughable,,,,,
draw me an N-Dimenshion,,,,,,,deraw mw a fugin clowd....then il be impressed
shmoks
i get into selfing, suddenly im a wanker!!,,,,,but then 1 of you gahdoos get into selfing and your bringin the moshiach,,,,,laughable,,,,,
draw me an N-Dimenshion,,,,,,,deraw mw a fugin clowd....then il be impressed
shmoks
furious george
New member
You said it budy!
GitT,
More lines won't make the cut because this is the way it goes man. This is what a great deal of this argument is about - breeders re-releasing into the genepool less than their best effort - nothing to compare it to, not enough bets on the table to truly select superior developments.
If developing a hybrid of one of those developments crossed out to another (removed) line I would rather progeny test separately the developed lines to said removed line with an eye to the best specific combination.
If I was to develop an inbred line from them I would try to open pollinate or bulk cross the remaining superior lines in an attempt to eliminate some of the deficit of heterozygous plants caused by the selfing. -T
More lines won't make the cut because this is the way it goes man. This is what a great deal of this argument is about - breeders re-releasing into the genepool less than their best effort - nothing to compare it to, not enough bets on the table to truly select superior developments.
If developing a hybrid of one of those developments crossed out to another (removed) line I would rather progeny test separately the developed lines to said removed line with an eye to the best specific combination.
If I was to develop an inbred line from them I would try to open pollinate or bulk cross the remaining superior lines in an attempt to eliminate some of the deficit of heterozygous plants caused by the selfing. -T
eg
Go to Morocco...
Tom
Why would there be MORE failures later in the program. I figured you'd be working more toward the ideal and you'd have more successes.
I still don't follow you on your last sentence. Unless you want to increase vigor and you meant to type homozygous instead of hetero?
Blimey-
GW Pharma got all their germplasm from one man. I think you'd be surprised how empty these imaginary libraries truly are.
FG-
I don't understand who these "official bodies" are. What big agriculture company has been working with cannabis for decades? What country are these gardens located in? What have they accomplished with their decades of work and the money they spent? Welcome to the internet, people like some facts to back up conjecture. Figured you were familiar with the gameplan
Why would there be MORE failures later in the program. I figured you'd be working more toward the ideal and you'd have more successes.
I still don't follow you on your last sentence. Unless you want to increase vigor and you meant to type homozygous instead of hetero?
Blimey-
GW Pharma got all their germplasm from one man. I think you'd be surprised how empty these imaginary libraries truly are.
FG-
I don't understand who these "official bodies" are. What big agriculture company has been working with cannabis for decades? What country are these gardens located in? What have they accomplished with their decades of work and the money they spent? Welcome to the internet, people like some facts to back up conjecture. Figured you were familiar with the gameplan
GitT - Thanks for the response.
That saddens me. A company with a monopoly in their home market to grow as they wish, with the financing, equipment, and skills to truly step things up to a new level, and for the sake of the price of some plane tickets and a small purchasing budget, they ignore, quite literally, all the potential the worldwide cannabis gene pool has to offer.
And if in 5 or 10 years, they change their mind, who knows how much genetic information will have been irrevocably lost?
We may see the day where the cure for a crippling disease is down to the fact that a few "hardened criminals" had the foresight to keep a few thousand beans from some isolated village in their deep freeze. Madness.
That saddens me. A company with a monopoly in their home market to grow as they wish, with the financing, equipment, and skills to truly step things up to a new level, and for the sake of the price of some plane tickets and a small purchasing budget, they ignore, quite literally, all the potential the worldwide cannabis gene pool has to offer.
And if in 5 or 10 years, they change their mind, who knows how much genetic information will have been irrevocably lost?
We may see the day where the cure for a crippling disease is down to the fact that a few "hardened criminals" had the foresight to keep a few thousand beans from some isolated village in their deep freeze. Madness.
GitT,
Who said there would be more failures later in the program? I didn't say that, did I say that?
You are figuring correct, later stages are about fine tuning and building on earlier successes after we've eliminated the rest.
The last sentence is correct. Selfing causes a deficit (a lack of) herterozygous plants (a deficit of heterozygous plants = inbreeding depression). Crossing these lines helps to eliminate that deficit (creates more heterozygous plants). More heterozygous plants equals vigor (heterosis), and creates a buffer when introducing said lines into new environments.-T
Who said there would be more failures later in the program? I didn't say that, did I say that?
You are figuring correct, later stages are about fine tuning and building on earlier successes after we've eliminated the rest.
The last sentence is correct. Selfing causes a deficit (a lack of) herterozygous plants (a deficit of heterozygous plants = inbreeding depression). Crossing these lines helps to eliminate that deficit (creates more heterozygous plants). More heterozygous plants equals vigor (heterosis), and creates a buffer when introducing said lines into new environments.-T
