What Male to use in a cross?

[groady-ho]

i do clone, sometimes.. but i like alot of variety..
all seeds he, i or anyone else make are not going to be SHITTY..do you think every pack/strain you buy is great, think again, some suck bad..
please, tell me how to get good genetics w/o paying and arm and a leg..i would like to know..
btw, i didn't read where he was going to go public..it is his right to play around..

 

[nvisionary]

You are not going to find even ONE stabilized True F1 Hybrid that has been engaged in a long-term breeding program. So you wont need to bother with chopping your leg off for any.

No..its not his RIGHT to destroy the potential of the next generation of seeds. Do you use or buy things that someone has pissed on first? Im sure you wouldnt appreciate growing his seeds out, spending months to discover they are all hermaphroditic, or weak,low yielding,slow growing, or smell like donkey shit.

If those are the kind of seeds you think are good, get some from him and use them all up.

 

[Chauncy]

maybe he will stop any poor breeding he may have been doing. The conservation movement would embrace his inputs and insight.
We have ALL done poor breeding. Even you Chaunce...The first step is acknowledging the problem. And STOP doing it. This will require having some ETHICS, which are short in supply.

I think Chimera and Mr Hill could comply. I think they could get on board. They can sell finished cannabis like many others do, which does not directly erode the genepool.

Of course I've done poor breeding. The difference is that I don't sell them all over the world for outrageous prices. If Chimera has ethics he will do real breeding and sell those and take the rest of his lines off the market.

Tom Hill is awesome. He doesn't bullshit, he doesn't epeen. He still doesn't have the best breeding practices do to the political environment. The difference is he doesn't shit on everybody while pretending to do the right thing.

ok.

Why dont you learn how to clone?

You could grow for 100 years and not make POOR seeds.

I guess you dont understand that the seeds you can make from 2 plants are going to be shitty. Theres more to good weed than it just being a cannabis plant.

p.s. its NOT all about having FUN. You have the potential to destroy something that is not easily recovered. Thats a terrible misunderstanding you and many others have. Its also not your RIGHT to erode the genepool(in case you were planning on going there).

You dont NEED to keep making seeds. I know that for a fact.

It is having fun if he is doing it for himself, so leave the guy the hell alone.

By your logic, Chimera, DJ Short, Rezdog, Paradise, Greenhouse and just about every other glorified seed maker needs to stop and pull all of their genetically eroded polyhybrid garbage off the market and start thinking about real preservation... not a single one of them are doing it... be realistic!!

Think about this shit seriously for a minute... the only real difference between Chimera and Rezdog is that one dude bid on his own shit but both offer the same genetic junk. Hell, at least Rezdog is at least trying to do stabilized work with his IBL projects. That is more for preservation than anything Chimera has ever done in his long and snobby career.

Prove me wrong and show me how he is any different than the rest. I'm talking about practice and not a bunch of non applied textbook bullshit. Chimera thinks he knows who I am but he doesn't I've met him a couple of times, and he needs to stick to playing guitar.

 

[chefboy6969]

Chauncy..you have so much knowledge..where have you been all this time? Let me guess you just got a computer lol...Dude go flame elsewhere..I have been on here for years and was a member of overgrow..and i am still LEARNING...stop trying to show how big your dick is alright..seriously..I have lost interest in this thread....MOds please lock thread...

peace
Chefboy

 

[mean mr.mustard]

God forbid any real evidence come into play.

 

[Chauncy]

Chauncy..you have so much knowledge..where have you been all this time? Let me guess you just got a computer lol...Dude go flame elsewhere..I have been on here for years and was a member of overgrow..and i am still LEARNING...stop trying to show how big your dick is alright..seriously..I have lost interest in this thread....MOds please lock thread...

peace
Chefboy

You are from overgrow, so what? so am I and lots of people. He I was trying to help you out after all, it was Chimera who came in here first and slapped you in the face. I haven't said a cross thing towards you, just pointing out somebody else's contradiction.

Since Chi is on the subject of hacks... Nice job you did with that Krush cut. You aren't even supposed to have that cut. You tried to weasel that from a couple of us people back in the day and we said no because of what you would do with it... You know what that cut means to us and those seeds should be free!

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi Nvisionary, good to see you back.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking you are all alone on this, plenty of us are aware of what is going on.

I have been advocating OP matings in regards to line maintenance and large male pollen mixes etc since the day I walked of the hill and first signed onto the cannanet world (overgrow, etc) - and practicing it for much longer.

I have agreed with you often (want links?) in regards to the vast majority of selection methods happening today and its effects on population genetics.

You and I both know I can make just as many seed with 1 plant (you've seen how large I can grow them I assume) as with 100+, I choose the later as often as possible.. Why is this do you think? I think you know and for those that don't it's because I understand what Nvisionary is saying and care about what I am doing.

I am currently building clonal libraries (candidates<2%) in the hopes of creating some of these true F1's that you say do not exist - something with a good description, and plants that fit it.

When you say that it is impossible for me to do the same type of job as I could if I could select from thousands and thousands of plants well then you got me there this is true, but..

You'd like to see me try? Well I am, and if more were we'd be making progress - comparatively. Yes, yes, I am still driving a car so to speak and polluting, but as least often as is possible for me. This doesn't seem good enough for you though does it. You'll not be happy until we all put away our stock and go home. This will never happen amigo, and I'd be replaced by much worse than myself in a heartbeat - you know this to be true man. So where exactly does that leave us? Sincerely, -Tom

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I just want the blanket statements to stop. A lot of people don't understand what the consequences of their crosses are. A lot of people do though... the literature is available and not just to a select few.

My true point is that breeding gets you places... and sometimes those places are good and new to the world.

If I keep all my original strains and open pollinate them once in a blue moon, am I not trying to future cannabis by making new crosses while preserving my old ones?

When and how are we to find new combinations? Who is capable of saying that they are the only one knowledgable and experienced enough to work a new strain? What are we going to see that we haven't seen before if we are only concerned with preservation?

I do agree that preservation is important, it's just not beyond the reach of anyone who realizes this. I think that making a new cross is a good direction as much as it is a bad one.

I'm not going to pretend to know what people intend to do with their genes, I simply know how to treat mine. It's not very wise to assume that nobody else knows anything... and saying so just seems childish.

 

[nvisionary]

Yea welcome back. Lets see how long it takes the truth to penetrate the liars....

I see you need to be 'coaxed' out of hiding.I am glad to hear from you..haha.

That being said, I understand you might be doing all you can do with the limits we have on us, but no, its not good enough. Do you think its good enough Tom?
I would not like to see you put your seed stock down, but I would like to see you try to put your SEED-SELLING away, make REAL inbred lines and store them. Youre only supporting the machine by hawking your SMALL population releases. For what? paper? internet fame from idiots/seed buyers??
I have seen your operation and your plants and..well.., it looks fun but im not as easily impressed as most i guess. To me this is not an unusual scale nor an adequate scale to make the kind of seeds we should aspire to... But what Ive seen from your pics(actually ONE pic of a bunch of bud samples is all) is not a scale to breed for sustained seedline improvements and seedline releases and you know it. Cant you find something else to do, man? Im sure you already have an income that does not necessitate this.

I will go look more into the grows of your customers and see how things have been going with your seeds..When I comment I will try to be nice and objective. I have a feeling we will find the typical rants and raves, poor grows and good grows, bad seedlings and good ones too that we find in every seedmaker's forum. Do you think your seeds are going to clearly shine above all others? Would you like to comment on how YOU RATE YOURSELF in the seedmaking scheme of things? Your humble yet honest attitude that everyone seems to LOVE about you will go a long way here, Sir.

I have more respect for you than 99% of these shitheels, so dont let my pointed remarks take you over the edge, but please consider what Im saying. I think it will take people like YOU and CHIMERA, among others with community respect AND plant breeding knowledge to turn this chipping machine around. If you guys dont take any sacrifices to make the necessary CHANGE, who would care if some few little seedbootique seed hacks took the stand and pulled their stupid crosses out? Cannabis needs YOU.

 

[Tom Hill]

Coaxed out of hiding lol, you know where to find me.

You've not seen all of my facilities currently being used but no matter, in the end -no- not a large enough scale for sustained seedline improvements. I'm just getting started though, have viable 10+ year old seedbanks below the frost line in the bank of the woods, and do have the resources to expand to an impressive scale beyond what most are capable of.

Of course you will find both happy and dissatisfied customers. We are talking about 10 packs of non-F1 seed in outcrossers, not clones or DH lines for fricks sake - reality? No, I do not think my current/previous seed offerings will shine clearly above all others. Certainly not in regards to % of outstanding plants judged by the individual grower (who is generally looking for hybrids in reality). They are however unique, of value, and far removed from this polyhybrid mishmash you speak of.

I rate myself high on the curve (top 10%?) in the seedmaking scheme.

With knowledge, resources, and these average well removed lines, I intend to isolate superior genotypes and bring to the table hybrids and inbred lines that do clearly shine. It will not be a walk in the park, nor is it unattainable either. You can tell the guy who's growing out a few plants and breeding them that he's wasting his time and will only do harm (though 1 in 100 of them will prove you wrong), but that shit don't wash with me man. I have everything I require to develop and deliver a superior product while documenting my work. And no, unfortunately I could not afford to do this out of pocket without some type of minimal compen$ation to help make it happen. And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what I'm getting, minimal, haha.

Cannabis needs us and we need cannabis. I lament the genes I have squandered, and am thankful for the genes I have saved.

You honestly envision a few respected members of the community packing-up their bags and everybody following? Other hacks will rejoice and get right to work at what they do. With all due respect, I think you're being more than a tad bit naive on that point. I thought education was the key? Or is it close all seed sales down immediately? One seems doable, the other seems like pure fantasy, honestly.

I think you know as well that I have a great deal of respect for you, your thoughts and your accomplishments. But you do not strike me as a man of much compromise, and on this matter I think you'd do well to give some or screw the pooch like you did the last time you blew through -cannabis needs you too. You want to turn it all around quickly not unlike many folk on many a thing, but brother, prepare yourself for a long ride or settle for being able to say "I told you so" in another 30 years. Surely you can do better than that? I'll meet you half way if I can, I'll give, but you must know that I'll be stopping short of someone dictating to me just how I'll go about it. Respectfully, Tom

 

[nvisionary]

I understand. Youre willing to 'give' as long as its when and how you decide, and you dont think its going to change anything, so basically, youre not going to change anything. HAHA! And if (by your definition of what went down) I screwed the pooch last time thats ok. Thats all that has to happen....Im screwing the pooch forever until it gives birth to something better.

You certainly may well be rated high on the local curve based on seedmaking experiences and knowledge of cannabis. But that doesnt make your seed introductions any better for the genepool. You arent evaluating 2000 plants each generation are you? And doing recurrent selection on that size group each generation, out to f6? Dude, I dont care if your facility is 10,000 acres in Humboldt County; you are not evaluating plants on a proper scale. Your 3 plants to Rezdogs one are nowhere near a proper scale.

Yes, I think if the respected players in the seed scam -like you- began taking a stand against hack jobs, and spoke out against hack jobs, you could influence change. Its going to take balls. You underestimate yourself and the impact you could have on the herd if you said "im not contributing to this hack fest", and really did something about it, then went about TEACHING how it can be done, advocating change in how this hack fest goes down, influencing your BOSS and friends in the seedbizz. So what if Rezdog and the seed noobtiques sell more of their trash into the market when you and others get out. That will be temporary. The winds of change will be blowing and these punks will be held in contempt in short order. He/they will get with the program when it means money. Or even better, they will get out of the seedgame because they cannot open pollinate worth a shit in a closet or bedroom. This will be fine; cannabists dont NEED all the extra garbage that closet hacks produce. These internet amateur breeders arent capable of making anything different than you, or Chimera, or me. Its a numbers game. All 3 of us know this is a fact. You know its a fact, right? I think you may have good intentions but I dont believe you are contributing anything important to the genepool with your seed introductions.

Chauncy's all over Chimera's jock right now, and probably rightfully so. I dont approve of what Chimera is doing. Hes a friend, and Im sorry but I cant justify what hes doing. I have told him all this. He knows how I feel about him participating in the scam. Im hoping he will come along because cannabis needs his positive input.


PLANTING SEEDS

This thread is getting lots of attention so dont think no one is paying attention to what is being discussed. They are waiting to see if you are just another culpable participant in the seed scam or if you really have some balls. By your last post Tom, Im continuing to ponder what your main motivation to make seeds really is, man. I suspect its a mix of money and fame from newb seed addicts, which would be sad. Its always money tho..... Maybe you think gypsy is a good friend now that he's got your back on the seed deals, and that youve been paid your low percentage a few times.

You dont have to do this. Its wrong and you know it. YOURE better than this, man.


Im planting 'seeds' here. Change can start from a seed.. you hearin me?

 

[Tom Hill]

I understand. A couple of weeks ago you were happy to have Gypsy demand OP seedlots and sell 100 seed packs, but today everybody is crapping all over the place that doesn't grow 2000+ each generation. You raised the bar again it seems.

This wouldn't happen to be a do as I say not as I do type of gig would it?

F6, a project ends when it is completed. I intend to grow out thousands of plants to locate 20-40 breeding candidates in hopes of bringing a couple unique lines to the table that may or may not be around for my child to enjoy - but they will be good. You have a problem with this do you?

I'm not sure I'm even clear as to what exactly you'd like to have folks on board with. Spell it out if you would. I'm listening. You know as well as I that there are many methods that do not require 2000 plants per generation. -T

 

[nvisionary]

I dont know why you are crying about a number. You arent even planning on using 100....2000 is a number based on an IDEAL. 100 is a COMPROMISE, in order to improve the sustainablity over what is happening now. jesuschrist.

Its a "do as is necessary to not erode the gene pool".

Tom. just admit it. It is YOU YOURSELF that will fight change. not rexdog.

You know what Im talking about. You just want to keep making hack shit for money. You SAY that you INTEND to do shit, but you wont.

You totally avoided my last post.

 

[spliphy]

don't hold your breath

don't hold your breath

I'm not sure I'm even clear as to what exactly you'd like to have folks on board with. Spell it out if you would. I'm listening. You know as well as I that there are many methods that do not require 2000 plants per generation. -T

after chumming the waters, setting the lines, reeling them in....you will not not get much more than "2000 per generation" as the solution for the impending disaster coming on the cannabis gene pool.....sorry, I'm not biting this time

he shows up every year or two with the guilt trip to the amateur breeders who try to preserve good genetics and make something unique...more power to them

prohibition, by far is the greatest destroyer of cannabis genetics...work to legalize, not demonize growers

 

[nvisionary]

amateurs dont preserve jack shit. none of the plants or "strains" excuse me, are even kept by anyone.

In the last 20 years, 99% of the "strains" amateurs have made are now completely gone. Sound like amateurs are trying to preserve genetics? yea.

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

nvisionary: man, what's your point here? you seem to have a really strong obsession with plant numbers in breeding processes... and you're right of course, the more plants are used the higher is the chance to find what you are looking for, but that's all you got a higher chance...

this post i wrote to you in another thread but you completely ignored it, seems like you are not here to discuss but to force anybody to accept your position... maybe take a deep breath and rethink what this site is all about: to learn from eachother...

You sure have a point there... nobody in the cannabis seed buisness is able to work with the numbers that breeders of legal crop do... wheat breeders work with millions i have heard...

BUT: that does not state this much about quality, it always depends on what the goal of a selection is, and in the commercial breeding this nearly always is quantity and NOT QUALITY. Sure they create lines that grow uniform and stable (and for them that does mean something entirely different than with cannabis strains) but that only shows how much of the gene-pool is lost - take f.e. apples there now is a movement which tries desperately to prevent that many apple strainsdie out, because the commercial breeders have only one interest: apple trees that grow fast, carry a lot of fruit (every year not every 2nd or 3rd) and that grow apples without visiual flaws and with high resistency against mold... because of this selection goals (which doesn't have much to do with how the apple tastes at all) many old lines are for those commercial breeders just not worth to work with... until now there already have been lost a variety of old apple-strains, now imagine you would try to find the apple that tastes best - you won't really have a better chance in the commercial strains

legal and bigger does not mean better! as bad as the whole seed biz situation is (i agree on that it's fucked up in many parts) there are still keepers to be found for everyone who searches... so stop moaning and grow some seeds good luck




...

now if you only can be happy with strains that were created with 10 000s of plants, it would be a little smarter to try to change the laws that created this situation than to come on here and tell folks what they either already know or don't want to hear...

anyways why not show us some pics of your selections?

btw maybe try some of skunkman's seeds - he claims to have worked with 10 000s of plants in the breeding - but hey wait... it's also just cannabis and also isn't perfect (another point: ever thought about that what is a good plant for us humans not necessarily is a good plant for the whole entity?)

and everything has two sides, so does breeding with many plants - the more plants you use the more impossible it gets to really know the plants you use for breeding, with less plants in a selection you get a more detailed impression of every single plant

but i have a feeling that you won't understand this post and will just keep on moaning and bitching about seed-quality... maybe it's not only the seeds but the ways you are growing them - i for one am blessed with quite a few keepers (i know you will tell me now that they are not keepers because they are genetically eroded or what not, but fact is: i'm smoking herbs that taste great, get me stoned every single fuckin day and are a joy to grow, hell i even would call me a happy grower - despite the legal situation and all this bs in the seedbiz)

and of top of it you are not telling this to ajran, or some of that new "breeders" with their elite-cuts, no you are telling it to tom hill - who sure wasn't aware that numbers matter before, and now that you enlightened him will use ten times more plants in his breeding...

(if you find irony in my statement you may keep it)

greetings

 

[URUK]

I think first we need to stop people using bad breeding practice, ie all 1:1 matings etc that we see and all the poly seed swapping..

We need to regulate ourselves first and foremost, the more that are educated by people spreading the word and pointing people in the right direction the better, you will always get people looking to profit no matter what but it is up to us weather we buy the product they sell or not...

I do not know if and when the day will come when we can do 2000 plant grows, even then very few will be able to achieve this sort of thing...

One thing that irritates myself is the lack of good info out there on breeding, we see "mentors" etc giving out so called info, and mods here once in a blue moon.. why cannot some of the experienced members like Tom Hill, Chimera, SamS, Nvisionary take control... as long as theres no agenda to seedboutique/seedbay too often you see people self promoting..

As much as chauncy has took viagra for chim, he/she has also made some valid points.

anyway the only way I feel we will ever achieve anything is together and with our $$$$$$
and to act accordingly.

 

[Tom Hill]

Good morning,

Hey Nvisionary,

Whether doing an OP, or pollinating the top 5% with male pollen mixes,,, I have been using 100+ with very few exceptions for a quarter of a century - typically, hundreds of plants per year.

2 of 3 seed productions this year were 100+ plants, documented. I came to this conclusion on my own decades ago while watching folks drive lines to the dirt in a few short years with their 1:1's on the hill. I do know what you're talking about, I've known what you're talking about before you were talking about it.

I'm about 400 in this year, and have about 8 clones to show for it. I continue, and if I find 2 that nick, or one that selfs well, and it turns out when you finally get your cards on the table (if you ever do) that you are against that then yeah... I'll fight your change. I'd fight it if I wasn't selling seed too. I'll fight it because I disagree with it if I understand you correctly. Which, I'm not entirely sure that I do - right now, all I'm getting on this is akin to raving granola at a chainsaw convention with no real plan to put forward except, "STOP". Again, you do not seem to me a man of compromise.

Further, you're telling me that I've not done what I have done, you're telling me that I will not do what is currently underway. I beg your pardon, but you're full of shit on both counts.

If folks are in possession of superior phenotypes, and want to embark on selfing, or backcrossing programs, I support that. I will help them if called upon, so that they may put their best efforts forward.

I support folks compromising, in order to improve the sustainability over what is happening now. Are you sure that you do as well? -T

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

there's nothing wrong with 1:1 seedproduction when it is made for creating seeds that are growing for buds and not further breeding and if the 2 plants are selected with care... otherways many specialists around here would complain the strain isn't stable enough


rule#1 in making seeds (for real breeders as well as for pollenchuckers like me ) is: the offspring has to be better than the parents (while the parents have to be desirable of course). If this rule is followed there is no reason why you shouldn't produce seeds with smaller numbers

 

[URUK]

there's nothing wrong with 1:1 seedproduction when it is made for creating seeds that are growing for buds and not further breeding and if the 2 plants are selected with care... otherways many specialists around here would complain the strain isn't stable enough


rule#1 in making seeds (for real breeders as well as for pollenchuckers like me ) is: the offspring has to be better than the parents (while the parents have to be desirable of course). If this rule is followed there is no reason why you shouldn't produce seeds with smaller numbers

I completely disagree, use a proven clone already for bud, do not use a 1:1 mating to try and find the one etc