i didnt select my males based upon the strain, but on observation of their traits. i saw what i liked and went with it.
What Male to use in a cross?
- Thread starter groady-ho
- Start date
i didnt select my males based upon the strain, but on observation of their traits. i saw what i liked and went with it.
NBtrichgrower
Member
id make the decision on what male to use when you grow them all, check them all out , smell, trich production, structure etc, then decide. Thats what i would do. Id also lean more towards any of the strains in your colection which may be ibl or true breeding to help bring a little stability to your crosses. Not sure if any of yours are .
M
medi-useA
chefboy6969-> Have you thought about saving pollen? I have personally successfully used pollen frozen in a deep freezer for 5+ months. {my Internet Research indicates 2 years+}. I used to use black film cannisters but now I use those cannisters that diabetic test strips come in. Airtight and Medical Grade Plastic! If you know a diabetic...or a FOAF knows one, you could score quite a few in a short period of time.
A branch with flowers on it sitting in a glass of water will continue chucking pollen a week or more. If you put the glass with branch under a 2-3 Ltr plastic bottle with the bottom cut off and the cap off so it can breathe and a clean sheet of paper underneath you can collect the pollen every few days. These branches only need flouro light or windowsill light to continue chucking pollen. Label the containers clearly. Breed what you like. You can mix the pollen with cornflour 50/50 as a carrier for the pollen just before you brush the pollen on...this also allows you to see where you have brushed on the buds!
If you label your pollen and get good results you can use it again. It is possible to get a cannister+ of pollen off a male plant in good circumstances...but you really only need a small amount...a 10th of a jellybean or less {sorry....brainfart...jellybean was the only common denominator I could think of....hang on...I've got JB's on top of the fridge...BRB
...}and you can get a load of seeds from it.
If you regularly grow out a male, take a branch full of flowers, kill the male and save the pollen, you will have a pollenbank to be proud of and happy to play with.
It can be as simple as putting a branch full of flowers into a paper bag for a week!Grow Well, Be Safe, Have Fun!
muA
EDIT: Whodair-> did the strong branching of the fathers pass on to the offspring? What results did you get?
So the male was Back Crossed to it's mother and Criss Crossed to it's sisters?
This is meant to stabilize the breeding line, right?muA
Please don't think in anyway that I endorse Rezdog! I was merely using him as an example as Chimera has had an extreme dislike for him and gone out of his way to show what a shitty breeder that he thinks Rez is. I'm merely stating that for all the shit talk that Chimmy is nothing but more of the same. Rez has never gotten a dime from me and never would.
I guess we need disclaimers around here... but anyway, I don't use Rez as an example of a breeder.
I think Simon is top notch however
so i guess this means that all the icmag server fund beans ain't worth shit..cause that;s all they are...
just so everyone know;s I have decided I am going to use either a Mango Haze male(not sure how I can go wrong with that) or Sam's OH x Sk#1 or Thunk
sorry if you think i am ruining marijuana genetics..I'll be sure never to share these crosses..LOL
btw anyone ever seen this thread..http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=24398&page=54
what ya'll think of that
just so everyone know;s I have decided I am going to use either a Mango Haze male(not sure how I can go wrong with that) or Sam's OH x Sk#1 or Thunk
sorry if you think i am ruining marijuana genetics..I'll be sure never to share these crosses..LOL
btw anyone ever seen this thread..http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=24398&page=54
what ya'll think of that
nvisionary
Member
whodair, is plant structure in cannabis linked to potency, or flavor or? Now you have selected a parent based on just structure, while limiting the genetic options of other important traits. Most important traits in drug cannabis are polygenic! That means the important trait(potency,aromatics,structure, height,adaptability, sexual stability,etc..) is controlled by more than just one gene. Aside from that, there are 2 alleles at each of the genes. What if blueberry flavor is controlled by 4 genes with 2 alleles at each locus? There are LOTS of genotypes produced. How did you know your 2 males would impart (say) Blueberry aroma or sexual stability? you dont. This is related to the Original poster's question, so its not off-topic.
Are you aware(or can you at least acknowledge) that if youd used say 50 males that had good structure, that your chances of ALSO including favorable genes for improved yield, flavor, ability to withstand environmental stresses, etc...would also have been in place,.... which would be available in the seeds you made, and also available for selection in your next generations?
Also, you said you based your selections purely on phenotype, -and that is TYPICAL of amateur plant breedings, but not efficient selection. With the polygenic traits(of low heritability), genotype does not always equal phenotype. In other words, it is not a reliable method to base a selection on completely, thus, the more inclusive method of selection and mating Im talking about.
URUK nailed it on post 44.
Are you aware(or can you at least acknowledge) that if youd used say 50 males that had good structure, that your chances of ALSO including favorable genes for improved yield, flavor, ability to withstand environmental stresses, etc...would also have been in place,.... which would be available in the seeds you made, and also available for selection in your next generations?
Also, you said you based your selections purely on phenotype, -and that is TYPICAL of amateur plant breedings, but not efficient selection. With the polygenic traits(of low heritability), genotype does not always equal phenotype. In other words, it is not a reliable method to base a selection on completely, thus, the more inclusive method of selection and mating Im talking about.
URUK nailed it on post 44.
I guess we need disclaimers around here... but anyway, I don't use Rez as an example of a breeder.
I think Simon is top notch however
Yeah, I thought people would read in to the irony I was trying to get across.
My problem is this, I don't know enough about a vast majority of the seed makers out there to have a truly informed decision. I know I like Tom Hill because he seems honest and I believe what he says when he talks about what he does. People say Shanti is very stand up as well but the plain fact is that none of his stuff has roused my interest.
My favorite plants from seed have come from DJ Short and/or hybrids made from DJ Short's work but I really think that DJ Short is a poor breeder in practice. Unless stuff is hemp, if you grow out enough of it you'll find keepers everywhere.
I have enough now that I don't need anymore seeds and won't buy any until real honest to goodness hard work is being done. In recent memory the only one that has even come close to real work that has been documented was when Breeder Steve was in Switzerland.
you callin me a chucker?? hells yes!! i have little clue what you are talking about scientifically.
did you say blueberry flavor and aroma? no thanks, skunks are for smoking not blueberries...
my mom brings the potency. i didnt want much influence from the male.
my seeds have given me better results than any dutch seed bank offerings i have grown.
LOL kinda did go off track huh? Hehe.
If it were my choice, I would use the [haze x sk1] from sam or the NL/H x S ... if you're going with just a single male I think one of those would lose the most alleles and and get the gene pool real dirty. Joking - I think those would be 'safe bets' to produce some consistent, nice prodigy.
The age old argument of male selection. I remember this same topic raging back on the ole cw lol. Having said that it is a very important subject imho.
My 2 cents, that i also practice, is that if i can not at the time progeny test the males for traits passed to female offspring, then i just use all the males of any given selection run, and only select on the female side. Many would and will scoff at this but just look at it with some logic and it makes sence. I dont care how vigorous your male grows( could well be just an enviromental factor, like the male was in the sweetest spot of the grow ect) how many times u jerk off the stem and smell your fingers, u cant difinitively know what the male will produce, or what u will select out of the line. The only side effect of using all your males is that it eases the slection pressure, which imho is a very good thing as to many breeders are in such a hurry to apply as much selective pressure as possible, to get where i dont think they even know. Nothing wrong with variability in a line, as long as the junk has been eased out of the line.
My take on modern breeding is i see alot of folks being to aggressive with their lines, when imho they should practice techs that have more of an approach of finess and patience, instead of trying to hammer your line into submission, maybe gently guide it to your end goal.
Anyways i could ramble on and on but just wanted to add my 2cents
much respect
Moonunit
My 2 cents, that i also practice, is that if i can not at the time progeny test the males for traits passed to female offspring, then i just use all the males of any given selection run, and only select on the female side. Many would and will scoff at this but just look at it with some logic and it makes sence. I dont care how vigorous your male grows( could well be just an enviromental factor, like the male was in the sweetest spot of the grow ect) how many times u jerk off the stem and smell your fingers, u cant difinitively know what the male will produce, or what u will select out of the line. The only side effect of using all your males is that it eases the slection pressure, which imho is a very good thing as to many breeders are in such a hurry to apply as much selective pressure as possible, to get where i dont think they even know. Nothing wrong with variability in a line, as long as the junk has been eased out of the line.
My take on modern breeding is i see alot of folks being to aggressive with their lines, when imho they should practice techs that have more of an approach of finess and patience, instead of trying to hammer your line into submission, maybe gently guide it to your end goal.
Anyways i could ramble on and on but just wanted to add my 2cents
much respect
Moonunit
nvisionary
Member
I wouldnt do it.
-You cant base a male's inheritance on just how it looks the one time you grew it out.
-You dont use a single male of unknown inheritance when breeding cannabis. You use many plants in order to increase the chances of making good seeds.
-You cant predict the outcome of a cross based on its name. ever.
Dont do it.
-You cant base a male's inheritance on just how it looks the one time you grew it out.
-You dont use a single male of unknown inheritance when breeding cannabis. You use many plants in order to increase the chances of making good seeds.
-You cant predict the outcome of a cross based on its name. ever.
Dont do it.
Chauncy, if you think ANY of todays seedbank strains are "pure" you need to have your head examined my brother. The pure ones like the skunks & northern lights, etc are all hybrids themselves! Other indiginous landrace strains from third world countries usually don't hold a candle to modern hybrids as more highly tuned hybrids flower faster, yield more, & have far greater potency through selective breeding. The only big benefit of the "pure" landrace strains are things like naturally occuring pest, drought, & disease tolerance which normally don't matter to most growers in a controlled indoor set-up.
Even the so called pure "hazes" are all hybrids of varying sativa lineage, and some flower for 16 weeks..yeah let me get right on that lol
Crossing a so called "pure" tall wispy low yielding slow flowering haze to a short squat high yielding 6 to 8 weeker of afghani heritage to create hybrids with qualities of both plants is nothing short of intelligent successful and purposeful breeding with much better results than the originals. This is why strains like Northern Lights #5 x Haze are so well regarded.
I surely don't agree with the random crosses of random crosses being grown out in the wild but I don't think it's got nearly the potential impact that some whistle-blowers would have you believe. Worst case scenario it might pollinate some hemp fields somewhere and the farmers would get a big suprise next season! hahaha
Even the so called pure "hazes" are all hybrids of varying sativa lineage, and some flower for 16 weeks..yeah let me get right on that lol
Crossing a so called "pure" tall wispy low yielding slow flowering haze to a short squat high yielding 6 to 8 weeker of afghani heritage to create hybrids with qualities of both plants is nothing short of intelligent successful and purposeful breeding with much better results than the originals. This is why strains like Northern Lights #5 x Haze are so well regarded.
I surely don't agree with the random crosses of random crosses being grown out in the wild but I don't think it's got nearly the potential impact that some whistle-blowers would have you believe. Worst case scenario it might pollinate some hemp fields somewhere and the farmers would get a big suprise next season! hahaha
seedmaking using polyhybrids without forethought or a breeding plan only weakens our valuable resource - the limited genepool.
Please don't harm the species we love by going ahead with this "plan".
Grow sinse. Don't weaken or resource.
Please reconsider.
-Chimera
Please don't harm the species we love by going ahead with this "plan".
Grow sinse. Don't weaken or resource.
Please reconsider.
-Chimera
While I agree in terms of production seed - for the average grower learning and playing at home, I don't think there is anything wrong with doing test crosses. Sure the numbers aren't there to really "do it right" but there is as good a chance as any of finding a keeper out of home made crosses.
It's not like his pollen will be flying into your garden...
You are incorrect Vorsprung to say that there is as good as a chance as any in finding a keeper, and in your assertion that no damage will be done.
The random pollination seeds he makes will become part of the global cannabis genepool. ALL improperly bred seeds have the potential to damage the future of Cannabis, in fact they do- potentially valuble alleles are lost with every unplanned mating.
They surely will not make it into my garden, but they may make it into someone else's, and so on down the line. If you have been paying attention for the last 15 years as I have, you would surely see how random hack jobs become incorporated to known "rated" seedlots that end up on the market, and thus make a significant impact on the global cannabis genepool. I could give you a list as long as any seed catalog available on the internet.
A single rated, bottlenecked hackjob has the potential (as it has in actuality, repeadtedly) become part of the global cannabis genepool- incorporated by stoners fucking plants together in closets for profit.
With every unplanned mating, genetics are lost.
Not to mention, there is no statistical probability of finding anything better than what is already in his stable, and ZERO probability of making a genetic improvement.
The population sizes alone dictate that he has no significant chance of finding a new elite specimen. What he has as mother plants already (each of them in and of themselves, the results of improper and bottle-necked breeding schemes) are at their end result in terms of genetic improvement, and that potential is diminished with every un-planned hackjob mating as potentially beneficial alleles and combinations thereof are looked over or lost without proper selection.
Regardless, the claim that these are test crosses in unwarranted. Test crosses take place on specific flower sites- pollen applied by a brush and labelled. Chef himself says 1 male will be pollinating his whole crop, for seed... as stated in his post above "I will be doing pollination of the whole plant also..strictly as seed run nothing else...".
I am repeatedly inundated with requests from people for tips on breeding, because as they tell me "breeding is the next step in becoming a good grower". This is nonsense... breeding is not as simple as taking two plants and mating them and giving the seedlot a fancy name and marketing it. 99% of people offering seeds today should not even be making seed, as they have no intention OR ABILITY to make genetic improvements.
What's wrong with just growing great dope? It's an honourable task in and of itself..... why not just do something really well, as opposed to doing something poorly... that damages a resource we ALL need?
Again, chef I ask you to reconsider your plan...
Respectfully,
-Chimera
The random pollination seeds he makes will become part of the global cannabis genepool. ALL improperly bred seeds have the potential to damage the future of Cannabis, in fact they do- potentially valuble alleles are lost with every unplanned mating.
They surely will not make it into my garden, but they may make it into someone else's, and so on down the line. If you have been paying attention for the last 15 years as I have, you would surely see how random hack jobs become incorporated to known "rated" seedlots that end up on the market, and thus make a significant impact on the global cannabis genepool. I could give you a list as long as any seed catalog available on the internet.
A single rated, bottlenecked hackjob has the potential (as it has in actuality, repeadtedly) become part of the global cannabis genepool- incorporated by stoners fucking plants together in closets for profit.
With every unplanned mating, genetics are lost.
Not to mention, there is no statistical probability of finding anything better than what is already in his stable, and ZERO probability of making a genetic improvement.
The population sizes alone dictate that he has no significant chance of finding a new elite specimen. What he has as mother plants already (each of them in and of themselves, the results of improper and bottle-necked breeding schemes) are at their end result in terms of genetic improvement, and that potential is diminished with every un-planned hackjob mating as potentially beneficial alleles and combinations thereof are looked over or lost without proper selection.
Regardless, the claim that these are test crosses in unwarranted. Test crosses take place on specific flower sites- pollen applied by a brush and labelled. Chef himself says 1 male will be pollinating his whole crop, for seed... as stated in his post above "I will be doing pollination of the whole plant also..strictly as seed run nothing else...".
I am repeatedly inundated with requests from people for tips on breeding, because as they tell me "breeding is the next step in becoming a good grower". This is nonsense... breeding is not as simple as taking two plants and mating them and giving the seedlot a fancy name and marketing it. 99% of people offering seeds today should not even be making seed, as they have no intention OR ABILITY to make genetic improvements.
What's wrong with just growing great dope? It's an honourable task in and of itself..... why not just do something really well, as opposed to doing something poorly... that damages a resource we ALL need?
Again, chef I ask you to reconsider your plan...
Respectfully,
-Chimera
Why would I need my head examined? Where did I say any seed banks were selling pure genetics? Read what I actually say and don't put words in my mouth to make yourself look better. BTW, what experience do you have with land race genetics to say that hybrids have far greater potency or better yield? List all the land race hybrids you've grown and smoked please...
Well no shit it is a hybrid and an unstable one at that... so what is your point other than you have no patience to enjoy longer flowering plants?
Well regarded by who? That is another example of mishmash breeding, hybrid x polyhybrid. How do you know that it is better than the original if you haven't grown them? I've grown lots of NL/Haze and never kept a single plant... Pure Haze destroys it. Not sure how this example furthers your flawed argument though.
See here is the problem, you need to become more informed... The fact is that modern junk is making it's way in to the wild. If you don't think that is a problem then you've got problems.I surely don't agree with the random crosses of random crosses being grown out in the wild but I don't think it's got nearly the potential impact that some whistle-blowers would have you believe. Worst case scenario it might pollinate some hemp fields somewhere and the farmers would get a big suprise next season! hahaha
All it takes is one male (insert hyped hybrid here), toss pollen out by some pure Afghan field to cause havoc. And your hemp example is exactly why this is a problem yet you think this is funny! what a nice guy you are...
