zmanforever
Member
my post was a question and with it the answer from u.
i received knowledge so no i will not delete.
i post to learn.
thanks for clarifying ET
my post was a question and with it the answer from u.
i received knowledge so no i will not delete.
i post to learn.
thanks for clarifying ET
rmccinc719
Member
just as evil stated. i meant 3 weeks veg before a full flower cycle. sorry for your confusion.
ok you are the smartest person on this thread so far that has made sense
ok 4x4 rockwool in the pots or on a flood table will get you 4-5 oz per plant .
yes if you grow in rockwool in the two gallon pots you will get 4-5 oz per .
yes if you grow sure to grow (STG) inserts you will get 4-5 oz.
all the products that have been mentioned it can be done 4-5oz per.
clay pebles( hydroton) this is not posible to get 5-6 oz in 2 gallon pots.
there is not enough root space for plant to build that kind of mass,buds.
if you all go back to my first post on this thread you will see that i said ''the system sucks 2 gallon pots'' gallon pots filled with clay pebles.i was referring to growing in clay pebles but i guess everyone here has done grows with this system and gotten 5-6 oz per plant.all that claim this cant prove this and real grower are not commenting.i have checked this out for myself so i just wanted to bring real facts to people that realy want to grow and learn.on a plant not veg out for 4-5 weeks on this system will get you 2 oz per plant 4-5 will get you 3 oz. note:in 2 gallon pot filled with just clay pebles.if you have 4x4 rockwool cubes in there with clay pebles then i see you hiting 4-5 5 being the most.this is because roots can grow through rockwool and can take up the 4x4 space and become that 4x4 in root mass plus the half gallon roots that you'll get from clay pebles...if you cant make sense of this then i guess your experience level with this subject is not all there
i'm done with this thread peace to all
ThePieEyedPiper
Member
I never said I get 5-6 oz per plant. I get up to 5 to 6 oz per plant. Here you go Pro since you want to misrepresent what I said. We get between 3 and 6 oz per plant. Others have done this with this system. We have a mod on here who gets 4zips each in these 2gal buckets. Dude you flap with the piss flaps a bit much!
B
blueybong
Okay, everyone has made their points. So why not just let it be? No need to continue this Ego War. How about a group hug?? LOL
D
DHF
There are "many" paths to Nirvana.........Ego`s left at the door please.......
There are "many" paths to Nirvana.........Ego`s left at the door please.......
Guys........The standard ebb and grow`s and multiflow`s are 2-2.5 gal buckets ok ?.......Depending on length of veg in said buckets will determine size of each plant but will STILL be strain/environment dependent on what each plant will pull come harvey/choptime........
Ya`ll are battin oranges and apples when container size only matters if you pre-veg/veg to properly fill each container with sufficient rootmass for the size plant/buds you seek..........BUT........
I`ve seen buncha 1 gal pots(6 x 6) of coco top fed pull 4 oz plants in ebb and flow tables with very lil vegtime and hortinova screen holdin everything up fed once a day ........
So size of rootmass doesn`t really play a part in yield as long as the plants get what they need during the bloom cycle since roots don`t grow during flower after the stretch.........they only suck juice for bud swellage.........
BUT.......The plants foliage/budmass MUST be supported if the containers and rootmass can`t do so thus the wrap around netting......
Now..... that said and me having built and used 5 gal buckets for my ebb and flow flip rooms for 5 yrs +/- I`d always been of the mind that roots make shoots and rootmass is paramount in supporting upper veg growth as well as heavy ass plants with saggin colas and such..........after all........I started with Krusty buckets and 2 1/2 lb plants in 5 gal buckets of lava for 8 yrs before that......
My setup`s worked but I was wrong .......When coco came into vogue several yrs back and showed me that as long as upper growth was supported, rootzone management mattered not as long as PH was kept inline where maximum nutrient uptake could be achieved for maximum yieldage per plant through the flowering process.......
I stand by my 5 gal buckets and their track record but I saw Heath Robinson @ another site grow well over 2 lb AK-47`s and Critical mass plants in regular multiflow 2 ? gal pots with a whole bunch of strings holding up the massive colas like my`ol krusty plants but half the rootmass.........
I never grew more than 2.5 oz plants in my flip rooms and 5 gal buckets but I grew 35 of em under 3-600 watt bare vertical bulbs in 6 x 9 rooms using major air exchange , no CO2, very lil a/c ,and dehuey`s as needed ......
There`s lotta ways ta skin a cat but only after you dial your room`s air exchange , RH, and temps.......Rootmass size is a thing of the past for bottom line yields but you`ve gotta know howta get there and it won`t happen overnight or with a magic potion............Do your homework and dial your environments...........monocrop and dial your strains...........Then your yields will fall in line ..............
When you can`t increase yields anymore after doing all the above........Add CO2.........and jack up room temps to allow increased transpiration and direct absorption through the open stomata from the increased temps and the plants sweating........
I`ve never used it but some folks swear by it........Exchanging your room`s air twice per minute will give you constant CO2 for your plants to absorb it naturally during the course of lights on.......
Plant`s give off CO2 during lights off and expell what they didn`t use with the light phase so exhaust fans on timers and thermostats increase environmental control even during lights off by getting rid of the excess CO2 and RH.....
Takes a few yrs ta get in yer groove........Patience is a virtue and all that other profound bullshit.........
Peace.....DHF.....
........
There are "many" paths to Nirvana.........Ego`s left at the door please.......
Guys........The standard ebb and grow`s and multiflow`s are 2-2.5 gal buckets ok ?.......Depending on length of veg in said buckets will determine size of each plant but will STILL be strain/environment dependent on what each plant will pull come harvey/choptime........
Ya`ll are battin oranges and apples when container size only matters if you pre-veg/veg to properly fill each container with sufficient rootmass for the size plant/buds you seek..........BUT........
I`ve seen buncha 1 gal pots(6 x 6) of coco top fed pull 4 oz plants in ebb and flow tables with very lil vegtime and hortinova screen holdin everything up fed once a day ........
So size of rootmass doesn`t really play a part in yield as long as the plants get what they need during the bloom cycle since roots don`t grow during flower after the stretch.........they only suck juice for bud swellage.........
BUT.......The plants foliage/budmass MUST be supported if the containers and rootmass can`t do so thus the wrap around netting......
Now..... that said and me having built and used 5 gal buckets for my ebb and flow flip rooms for 5 yrs +/- I`d always been of the mind that roots make shoots and rootmass is paramount in supporting upper veg growth as well as heavy ass plants with saggin colas and such..........after all........I started with Krusty buckets and 2 1/2 lb plants in 5 gal buckets of lava for 8 yrs before that......
My setup`s worked but I was wrong .......When coco came into vogue several yrs back and showed me that as long as upper growth was supported, rootzone management mattered not as long as PH was kept inline where maximum nutrient uptake could be achieved for maximum yieldage per plant through the flowering process.......
I stand by my 5 gal buckets and their track record but I saw Heath Robinson @ another site grow well over 2 lb AK-47`s and Critical mass plants in regular multiflow 2 ? gal pots with a whole bunch of strings holding up the massive colas like my`ol krusty plants but half the rootmass.........
I never grew more than 2.5 oz plants in my flip rooms and 5 gal buckets but I grew 35 of em under 3-600 watt bare vertical bulbs in 6 x 9 rooms using major air exchange , no CO2, very lil a/c ,and dehuey`s as needed ......
There`s lotta ways ta skin a cat but only after you dial your room`s air exchange , RH, and temps.......Rootmass size is a thing of the past for bottom line yields but you`ve gotta know howta get there and it won`t happen overnight or with a magic potion............Do your homework and dial your environments...........monocrop and dial your strains...........Then your yields will fall in line ..............
When you can`t increase yields anymore after doing all the above........Add CO2.........and jack up room temps to allow increased transpiration and direct absorption through the open stomata from the increased temps and the plants sweating........
I`ve never used it but some folks swear by it........Exchanging your room`s air twice per minute will give you constant CO2 for your plants to absorb it naturally during the course of lights on.......
Plant`s give off CO2 during lights off and expell what they didn`t use with the light phase so exhaust fans on timers and thermostats increase environmental control even during lights off by getting rid of the excess CO2 and RH.....
Takes a few yrs ta get in yer groove........Patience is a virtue and all that other profound bullshit.........
Peace.....DHF.....
........
Mist
Member
Well I think you hit the nail on the head there DHF. A properly dialed in setup is paramount to a good yield. I am just finishing my second round with my Ebb&Gro system and the first round was to sort out which pheno would produce the best and this second round was spent dialing in how my vegg and training of the plant would produce the best yield. My current grow will be done in 2 weeks and I know exactly what tweaks I want to do on the next one which is ready and waiting in the wings.
I have gotten strains from a friend that performed outstanding for him in soil with huge yields and it took 2-3 grows to get things dialed in for the same results in hydro. And it has also worked in the opposite direction with strains I got huge yields with in hydro having to be dialed in for his soil setup.
Good nutrients, good enviroment and good strain doesn't always equal a good yield. There are just too many factors.
And as far as the root mass issue goes. I grew in 5gal. DWC buckets for 10 years and grew them huge with plants finishing in the up to 4ft. range with roots filling the buckets to the point where 2gal of nutrient was all it could hold. And now with the the smaller bucket Ebb&Gro system I am getting just as good of results as I did with the 5gal. DWC buckets for similar sized plants.
In the end the most important factor is just plain old experience with a system or method. And confidence in that system/method helps too.
So maybe not everybody will pull 4-6 oz per plant in the Ebb&Gro. Maybe they wouldn't pull that much with soil or 5gal. DWC setups either. There are just too many factors involved to go damning a system because it didn't perform well for "You".
So switch whatever you think may be the problem and you will have confidence in your decision and it may perform better for you.
Too many factors. Just too, too many factors.
Happy Growing.
I have gotten strains from a friend that performed outstanding for him in soil with huge yields and it took 2-3 grows to get things dialed in for the same results in hydro. And it has also worked in the opposite direction with strains I got huge yields with in hydro having to be dialed in for his soil setup.
Good nutrients, good enviroment and good strain doesn't always equal a good yield. There are just too many factors.
And as far as the root mass issue goes. I grew in 5gal. DWC buckets for 10 years and grew them huge with plants finishing in the up to 4ft. range with roots filling the buckets to the point where 2gal of nutrient was all it could hold. And now with the the smaller bucket Ebb&Gro system I am getting just as good of results as I did with the 5gal. DWC buckets for similar sized plants.
In the end the most important factor is just plain old experience with a system or method. And confidence in that system/method helps too.
So maybe not everybody will pull 4-6 oz per plant in the Ebb&Gro. Maybe they wouldn't pull that much with soil or 5gal. DWC setups either. There are just too many factors involved to go damning a system because it didn't perform well for "You".
So switch whatever you think may be the problem and you will have confidence in your decision and it may perform better for you.
Too many factors. Just too, too many factors.
Happy Growing.
morrisgreenberg
Member
big buhdda blue cheese, 4 weeks veg minimum , used 1 inch RW starter cubs in clay, this one run the roots never went into the bottom bucket for some reason, all plants were finished at 4ft, also run whiteberry, trwainwreck and La con, all have roots in the bottom pots and im convinced i can let them go to 6 ft, i actually thought it was impossible to get root bound in hydro? if root bound is an issue then why do people use one gallon pots of clay on a flood table and achieve 3 ft plants? if this were soil to obtain a 3ft plant happily you need 3 gallons of media
morrisgreenberg
Member
my bad i left out yield...smallest plant go 4zips and larger 5-6
morrisgreenberg
Member
i am perplexed about the 4x4 rockwool DR was talking about, with these systems you have to place RW 1/2inch above flood line to avoid constantly wet RW, therefore size of starting RW is a moot point since all roots are scavengers and grow downward looking for water. this system is designed for production and veg time and from the users on these forums anything less than 70g per plant is a total failure
brownstormy
Member
Look. It's about *surface area* folks.
Roots aren't just a tube with a hole at one end leading to the plant's stomach at the other end and they do way more than just deliver food.
The more rootmass you have amassed, the more surface area you have for the various exchange and reaction processes that the roots are responsible for.
More rootmass DOES mean that the plant will have access to more water, more nutrients and more oxygen (and we're not even considering beneficial organisms) .
Anyone who's worked with bonsai may have come across having to trim the roots after having trimmed a lot of leaf. The smaller root mass slows the upper half of the plant from reaching too fast.... making it a tiny cute bonsai.
I'm not saying those of you running 2 or 3 gal buckets are growing bonsai or anything.. Just trying to illuminate the principles involved.
Roots aren't just a tube with a hole at one end leading to the plant's stomach at the other end and they do way more than just deliver food.
The more rootmass you have amassed, the more surface area you have for the various exchange and reaction processes that the roots are responsible for.
More rootmass DOES mean that the plant will have access to more water, more nutrients and more oxygen (and we're not even considering beneficial organisms) .
Anyone who's worked with bonsai may have come across having to trim the roots after having trimmed a lot of leaf. The smaller root mass slows the upper half of the plant from reaching too fast.... making it a tiny cute bonsai.
I'm not saying those of you running 2 or 3 gal buckets are growing bonsai or anything.. Just trying to illuminate the principles involved.
D
DHF
Bump.........Ya`ll wanna know howta do it and do it well just holler........I`m retired and bored with oodle`s of info on howta be a more proficient ebb and flow bucketeer........
My first tip would be to add an extra bucket in the bloom rooms with an industrial float switch wired back to the feed pump that`ll compensate for rootmass growth in the buckets instead of having to depend on a bullshit cheap-ass timer on a bucket/controller that`s doomed for failure.........
Krypto-type controllers are the weak link in the chain unless maintained regularly on the float switches......
With my setups the floatswitch kills power to the feed pump if levels fill before the timer kicks off as a failsafe device and waits for the drain pump on a timer to kick on and pull juice back to rez at light speed while pulling major O2 down into each rootzone from the sucking action....
Peace....DHF...
My first tip would be to add an extra bucket in the bloom rooms with an industrial float switch wired back to the feed pump that`ll compensate for rootmass growth in the buckets instead of having to depend on a bullshit cheap-ass timer on a bucket/controller that`s doomed for failure.........
Krypto-type controllers are the weak link in the chain unless maintained regularly on the float switches......
With my setups the floatswitch kills power to the feed pump if levels fill before the timer kicks off as a failsafe device and waits for the drain pump on a timer to kick on and pull juice back to rez at light speed while pulling major O2 down into each rootzone from the sucking action....
Peace....DHF...
E
EvilTwin
My first tip would be to add an extra bucket in the bloom rooms with an industrial float switch wired back to the feed pump that`ll compensate for rootmass growth in the buckets instead of having to depend on a bullshit cheap-ass timer on a bucket/controller that`s doomed for failure.........
Krypto-type controllers are the weak link in the chain unless maintained regularly on the float switches......
With my setups the floatswitch kills power to the feed pump if levels fill before the timer kicks off as a failsafe device and waits for the drain pump on a timer to kick on and pull juice back to rez at light speed while pulling major O2 down into each rootzone from the sucking action....
Peace....DHF...
Question: Why is it necessary to add an entire extra bucket to add that float. Wouldn't it accomplish exactly the same thing by putting that float in the controller?
And the AquaHub controller kit already has that extra redundant float wired back to the output pump. And it's in the controller...
ET
pugnacious
Active member
whats the max amount of buckets you can put per 55 gal drum?
Mist
Member
The companies that make both the Ebb&Gro and Multi-Flow systems say 48 sites, but I can tell you for sure that it would wear you out keeping the resovior full. I would say 36 sites would be reasonable and you would still be refilling the resovior every other day during flower. I think 24 sites is probably the best balance for this setup since the flood and drain times would be so much longer with many more sites than that.
Anyone here running 36 or more sites that can chime in?
Anyone here running 36 or more sites that can chime in?
pugnacious
Active member
Thanks for the info. So plugging the master bucket into a 115 res would be a better idea.
D
DHF
Hey ET.......I failed to say that I had done away with controllers in my setups with that extra bucket in each room serving as said controller instead.......
I`d heard and seen way too many nightmare stories about krypto/multiflow/ebb and grow type controller buckets flooding growrooms from the bullshit cheapass lil float switches sticking open that`re accidents waiting to happen.....hopefully the components have improved but......
Unless there`s been major improvements I stand by my way of using 2 seperate external inline pumps on their own timers with the feed pumps having the extra bucket in each flip room with an industrial float switch as a failsafe device ..............
It kills juice flow at the pre-determined fill level of the buckets regardless of being on a timer since rootmass increases as plants grow and displace volume ......
So the time it takes to fill the buckets will need to be shorter and shorter as rootmass expands till the end of stretch or rather that was what I witnessed over several yrs...........
I used major flow to blast feed into the rootzones and push stagnant air out through the medium/upper buckets and then the drain pumps sucked solution out at lightspeed to pull major O2 back down through the medium to the rootzones 3 times during lights on ..........
Total feed and drain time were minimal.....That`s why timers really didn`t haveta come into play except as a schedule type thingy rather than an off and on kinda useage..............
DIY`s not for everyone but with pre-manufactured growing systems just be wary of the weakest link in the chain and be diligent in maintenance and upkeep......
Take care.....DHF.....
I`d heard and seen way too many nightmare stories about krypto/multiflow/ebb and grow type controller buckets flooding growrooms from the bullshit cheapass lil float switches sticking open that`re accidents waiting to happen.....hopefully the components have improved but......
Unless there`s been major improvements I stand by my way of using 2 seperate external inline pumps on their own timers with the feed pumps having the extra bucket in each flip room with an industrial float switch as a failsafe device ..............
It kills juice flow at the pre-determined fill level of the buckets regardless of being on a timer since rootmass increases as plants grow and displace volume ......
So the time it takes to fill the buckets will need to be shorter and shorter as rootmass expands till the end of stretch or rather that was what I witnessed over several yrs...........
I used major flow to blast feed into the rootzones and push stagnant air out through the medium/upper buckets and then the drain pumps sucked solution out at lightspeed to pull major O2 back down through the medium to the rootzones 3 times during lights on ..........
Total feed and drain time were minimal.....That`s why timers really didn`t haveta come into play except as a schedule type thingy rather than an off and on kinda useage..............
DIY`s not for everyone but with pre-manufactured growing systems just be wary of the weakest link in the chain and be diligent in maintenance and upkeep......
Take care.....DHF.....
