Why do people get irritated when you ask what strain they're selling

[mean mr.mustard]

VanXant, you may well go down in history as General Generalization.

You sound sour, bitter, and all sorts of angry. I hope you find some peace, just don't seek solace in your lies.

Could you find some evidence to back up your claims? I found a whole slew of evidence to the contrary.

 

[VanXant]

Tom,

Its nice to see you. Too bad its on these terms.

You should be running several different programs consecutively, making sure to only release the best seedline of them all..not ALL of them. You surely know that this is how it is done in all other breeding worlds of similar plants. Does that sound difficult? or too large-scale? Yea, it IS, and thats what kind of scale is necessary to develop strains that exceed earlier lines, and grow reliably into the "strain" the seed pack says it is.

If you and gypsy and I released all our hackjobs there would be no NEW genes involved. I have all the genes required to make medical and recreational cannabis, and vise versa, so do thousands of other people. The genepool is all in. It would not be necessary for ANY reasons, outside of our own personal whims to engage in the HIGHLY EXPLOITED seedgame. I am not swayed by the romantic idea that there are not enough pot seeds in the world; lets all do our 'duty' to make seeds any way we know how. Not to mention, we now must,.. to pay the SERVER costs now.
We have fully incorporated the genepool by people encouraged to make POOR seedlots for money. Like I said, the pool is all in. There is no reason to keep poly-hybridizing it with small populations. That is not making jackshit, and its eroding the pool. Its RIDICULOUS to claim that this behavior is helping anyone. But I understand Gypsys 'in bizz' and may be not too caring of what kind of a muddy wake hes leaving. Does this world really need 1000 amateur hacks inbreeding the genepool for a LITTLE money? When bagseeds are as good as 99.9% of these seedlots? I say GROW AND SELL WEED ya punks!! Dont destroy the genepool. Of course they cant grow weed, but they can make lots of expensive hack seeds in a closet. While the market is encouraging erosion by having NO quality standards BEFORE the sale. Gyp, Im taking my argument up with you. And that is the right person to address about this because you are the Head of this serpent. I can also tell you that Ive been producing 'medicine' and 'recreation' for many years and I dont ever NEED a seed to do it. Thats just a business slogan of yours, and not real-world. I would never grow seeds out looking for a keeper nowdays, ..seeds are fucked. And I would never tell someone else to grow out seeds, when there are plenty of proven clones out there in WIDE circulation.

Gypsy, we dont really need your seed service. No diss intended. If it werent for you and other seed salesmen, we could use up the seeds we ALL have or could get from friends, we could greatly reduce cannabis genetic losses, and we could have the diversity we had 40 years ago(before breeding pot was something teenagers could do in a closet, for money) to find elite clones to use, as well as to make truly improved drug strains when its time comes.

mustard? show your evidence. I hope you pay more attention to detail in that then you did in your cheap trick sig....

havagoodone

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Evidence? Two words:

Serious

Seeds


I'm wondering why you've decided to denounce the need for cannabis seeds. Gypsy fills a much needed request by many growers. Just because you don't believe that real breeders breed stable strains doesn't make it less true. Why are you so adamant that there is no need for breeding because it's an unacheivable goal?

Growers make their own crosses for their own ends. Breeders make their own crosses for their own ends. Both of these things happen at the same time totally independent of one another.


PS About the sig... it's verbatim Apu... not Cheap Trick

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi VanXant,

It's nice to see you too, but yeah, I disagree with some of that.

What you're describing I should be doing -develop several candivars with the foreknowledge that the vast majority will fail- is exactly what I am doing. It doesn't seem too daunting a task and providing I've first covered my bases by maintaining parental lines I see no reason for it to be causing any damage.

I disagree that we together (the entire online community including seedbanks) represent more than a small fraction of the whole.

All clones folks grow can be improved upon and replaced with superior examples by sprouting seed - happens everyday and why shouldn't it.

It seems to me that the degradation of the genepool was well underway before any seedbanks existed, so I do not see them as this great serpent. The serpent, if there is one, is that there are too few folks like yourself and Chimera etc around working to educate more folks on how to do more correctly what we know they'll be doing anyway - effecting the genepool. I also believe that there is plenty of room and ability for beneficial work still to be done in todays environment.

What happens when we die in the middle of your store/save/wait plan. I see and understand the value of those thoughts though and would give much to turn the clock back.

I believe as many genetics as possible should be available. The farmer decides what is crap and what isn't. Elite lines will be located and maintained by conservationists or farmers, successfully, or not. All of this seems inevitable - the same as with any plant in the history of plant and man.

Many of my personal favorites seem to have been bred out of folks' backyards as apposed to large scale operations - from the Brandywine Tomato and Hookers Corn to the Eel River Muskmelon and many varieties of cannabis.

The proposal that it can not be done correctly and therefore should not be attempted - discouraging folks is pushing rocks uphill in my opinion but I know you'll continue to have at it . Encouraging folks with some direction and insight seems to me a much more realistic approach in bringing positive/beneficial results. I'll say this, you have affected my own thought processes (I have learned much from you) over the years (and continue to do so) and I thank you sincerely for that. Guys like Gypsy surely helped to make that possible and I thank him sincerely for that as well. -Tom

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

Tom,

Its nice to see you. Too bad its on these terms.

You should be running several different programs consecutively, making sure to only release the best seedline of them all..not ALL of them. You surely know that this is how it is done in all other breeding worlds of similar plants. Does that sound difficult? or too large-scale? Yea, it IS, and thats what kind of scale is necessary to develop strains that exceed earlier lines, and grow reliably into the "strain" the seed pack says it is.

If you and gypsy and I released all our hackjobs there would be no NEW genes involved. I have all the genes required to make medical and recreational cannabis, and vise versa, so do thousands of other people. The genepool is all in. It would not be necessary for ANY reasons, outside of our own personal whims to engage in the HIGHLY EXPLOITED seedgame. I am not swayed by the romantic idea that there are not enough pot seeds in the world; lets all do our 'duty' to make seeds any way we know how. Not to mention, we now must,.. to pay the SERVER costs now.
We have fully incorporated the genepool by people encouraged to make POOR seedlots for money. Like I said, the pool is all in. There is no reason to keep poly-hybridizing it with small populations. That is not making jackshit, and its eroding the pool. Its RIDICULOUS to claim that this behavior is helping anyone. But I understand Gypsys 'in bizz' and may be not too caring of what kind of a muddy wake hes leaving. Does this world really need 1000 amateur hacks inbreeding the genepool for a LITTLE money? When bagseeds are as good as 99.9% of these seedlots? I say GROW AND SELL WEED ya punks!! Dont destroy the genepool. Of course they cant grow weed, but they can make lots of expensive hack seeds in a closet. While the market is encouraging erosion by having NO quality standards BEFORE the sale. Gyp, Im taking my argument up with you. And that is the right person to address about this because you are the Head of this serpent. I can also tell you that Ive been producing 'medicine' and 'recreation' for many years and I dont ever NEED a seed to do it. Thats just a business slogan of yours, and not real-world. I would never grow seeds out looking for a keeper nowdays, ..seeds are fucked. And I would never tell someone else to grow out seeds, when there are plenty of proven clones out there in WIDE circulation.

Gypsy, we dont really need your seed service. No diss intended. If it werent for you and other seed salesmen, we could use up the seeds we ALL have or could get from friends, we could greatly reduce cannabis genetic losses, and we could have the diversity we had 40 years ago(before breeding pot was something teenagers could do in a closet, for money) to find elite clones to use, as well as to make truly improved drug strains when its time comes.

mustard? show your evidence. I hope you pay more attention to detail in that then you did in your cheap trick sig....

havagoodone

First off.......if there was no demand for seeds then I would not be supplying them. There is a huge demand because most people that want to grow are not able to get clones........Many people that buy or are are gifted seeds make clones and a very few of them share or sell the clones......why?....You cannot store clones and usually they don't travel so well, are much more difficult to conceal and have to be kept alive with light food and water, where-as seeds don't need that......

It is far more simple and legally less encumbered to distribute seeds internationally to those that require them for medicinal or recreational purposes.... I am not a breeder but act as a portal for various breeders/seedmakers to be able to supply the demand of the ever growing world out there and I also collect seeds from my travels that in turn supply those that wish to breed and produce seeds themselves from this collection....

If nobody needed my services then why do I constantly get requests for them?....what you say seems to smack of some sort of illogical reasoning...I see far more diversity amongst cannabis populations than I ever did 30 years ago due to growers growing out seeds from all parts of the world and making selections to breed with from them....and then releasing these seeds for us all to grow with.....

Referring to me as the head of some serpent is plainly ridiculous....I have collected land race varieties of seeds from several continents over the years and freely in many cases distribute these as well as keeping some back for my own personal collection......Not everyone wants to grow 'bag seeds'......they would rather grow something that has been worked to some extent or fully by a breeder/seedmaker and the results generally produce happy growers...

Why would you not grow seeds out to look for a keeper?......how else are we to keep cannabis alive and growing if we refuse to use seeds to do this when not everyone can get clones, and even if they could get clones who is to say that these clones are as good as what they might find in a seed?......after all every clone at some point originated from a SEED!

 

[SEVEN47]

A couple dealers I bought from in the past knew the strains they were selling. I've landed some conniseur strains like ny diesel, kush, lui, champagne, jack herer, etc. And when they don't know, it's usually not that great.
​

 

[BigOrangeJim]

thx Gypsy for making dreams come true.....

i moved to BF Arkansas in 2000..bought 14 acres and started living the dream...only seeds i could get were from some Mexican Brick i was paying $25 1/4 for. i picked the best lookin and saved them for growing outside.
...life was good...harvest was great,Free Weed always is..plus just the feeling u get from growing ur own is awesome.

i always dreamed of goin to the 'Dam and smoking some of the killer herbs,still till this day i dream..but,i'm not a rich man.

But when i found Gypsy's site on the Net in 2001.. i brought the 'Dam to BF Arkakansas for less than $100...and after the Fall harvest that year, i was flying 1st class in my own backyard w/o leaving the ground...

Cali-O...Sensi-seeds
Skunk #1..Sensi-seeds

this is what the seed co.'s do for the world..this is what Gyp does for the world..gives peeps a chance...a chance to live there dreams .

thx again...this Backwoods HillBilly state will be the last to go Med!

thx,peace out

ps Gypsy...love ur vids on the Tube...Hash/Moroc

 

[hazy]

Why do people get irritated when you ask what strain they're selling

Dude, your dealer is really VanXant and he's getting pissed at you for being so fucking stupid that you think there's different strains of pot.

 

[shawkmon]

Dude, your dealer is really VanXant and he's getting pissed at you for being so fucking stupid that you think there's different strains of pot.

ty gypsy, i havent had to see A dealer but once all year, i hope i never have to goto crack town ever again looking for some weed.

 

[3dDream]

We can let ourselves off the hook, people have been selecting weed for 2,400 years... I do see VanXant's point, but what lines are worth saving? Were they original to begin with? I have to admit that it does irk me a bit when I see the phrase "great genetics" and <insert name of clone with unknown origins> in the same sentence. I will gladly go to the top of some mountain and preserve a population of cannabis. I just need to be paid... who wants to fill my collection bucket?


http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/59/15/4171

The Yanghai Tombs near Turpan, Xinjiang-Uighur Autonomous Region, China have recently been excavated to reveal the 2700-year-old grave of a Caucasoid shaman whose accoutrements included a large cache of cannabis, superbly preserved by climatic and burial conditions. A multidisciplinary international team demonstrated through botanical examination, phytochemical investigation, and genetic deoxyribonucleic acid analysis by polymerase chain reaction that this material contained tetrahydrocannabinol, the psychoactive component of cannabis, its oxidative degradation product, cannabinol, other metabolites, and its synthetic enzyme, tetrahydrocannabinolic acid synthase, as well as a novel genetic variant with two single nucleotide polymorphisms. The cannabis was presumably employed by this culture as a medicinal or psychoactive agent, or an aid to divination. To our knowledge, these investigations provide the oldest documentation of cannabis as a pharmacologically active agent, and contribute to the medical and archaeological record of this pre-Silk Road culture.

The presence of so many recognized cannabinoid degradants is consistent with very old cannabis samples. The very low concentration levels measured in the HPLC analysis may indicate that the sample provided contained significantly more leaf and twig material than flower material, rather than being evidence in itself that the sample was of low potency originally. This plant material is therefore conclusively cannabis derived from a population of plants within which THC was the dominant cannabinoid. By contrast, a sample taken from a mix of wild-type Cannabis sativa would customarily harbour a more equal mixture of THC and CBD (de Meijer et al., 2003). It would appear, therefore, that humans selected the material from plants on the basis of their higher than average THC content. To elaborate, a chemotaxonomy of cannabis previously outlined indicates three types (Small and Beckstead, 1973): chemotype I (drug) strains with high-THC:CBD ratios, chemotype II low-THC, higher-CBD (fibre) strains, and chemotype II with more equal ratios. THC and CBD production are mediated by co-dominant alleles BT and BD, respectively (de Meijer et al., 2003). By comparison, pooled samples from cannabis fields in Morocco and Afghanistan will normally produce 25% high-THC plants, 25% high-CBD plants, and 50% with lower, mixed titres, combining to yield roughly equivalent amounts of the two phytocannabinoids (Russo, 2007), a pattern not observed in our specimen.

 

[kopite]

Thanks to all,

a good read for a sunday morning before the mancs rip my team a new arsehole(gypsy should get it), I agree mostly with VanXants points, that said TH seems to be doing a stellar job at what he does, for which I thank him, my main concerns are the amount of polyhybrids I see being traded or even sold... even by some mentors (some of which didn't even realise) it seems the norm and to me when it shouldn't be.

First off.......if there was no demand for seeds then I would not be supplying them. There is a huge demand because most people that want to grow are not able to get clones........Many people that buy or are are gifted seeds make clones and a very few of them share or sell the clones......why?....You cannot store clones and usually they don't travel so well, are much more difficult to conceal and have to be kept alive with light food and water, where-as seeds don't need that......

Hopefully with the age we are now in and the rate things advance, artificial seeds will help here as you would get an exact replica of the clone... I look foward to it...

Anyway Thanks again for the likes of Tom Hill and VanXant


Kopite

 

[kopite]

I've been trying to switch the word "variety" to describe plants.

Hi 3d I think the term "Varietal" is best used as in wine ie its a varietal from a variety.... to me blueberry is a variety that can produce many varietals.....

kopite

 

[VanXant]

Gypsy,

You are "getting requests" for something that you are not delivering, man. You allow seedmakers to make claims about seedlots they threw together, and buyers expect what the seedmaker promises. Buyers are so happy to receive pot seeds in the mail that they are blinded by the process. Most of these buyers are very inexperienced at growing pot (as evidenced by even entertaining the idea of buying amateur-bred potseeds off the net)and do not understand that in a pack of 10-15 amateur seeds, the likelyhood of finding a truly good plant is next to impossible. They are happy with half-assed plants. They ALL grow into cannabis plants, but the seed description never just promises "cannabis". Naw, these guys have to assert that they are very skilled and experienced plant breeders whose parent plants are of the very best stock(really just offspring of a previous hackjob), they promise that the seeds will all produce very good plants with perfect growth, aroma, sexual stability, high yields,among many other un-truths that are easily swallowed by pot newbs. The handful of seeds these guys closet produce actually perform exactly like bag seeds; no better or worse. You are shipping bag seeds and charging people for the shipping and handling. And proud of it!

The gold rush of making quick and dirty seedlots has not created so much as ONE single new Cannabis gene, Gyspy. Not one. Quite the opposite. It has facilitated the LOSS of Cannabis genes. Im guessing that you do not want to understand that breeding with small populations CAUSES GENETIC EROSION, Gypsy. I think you know this is true; but you choose to allow it.
And to boast about your travels where you dilute the worlds land races with Western hackjobs is enough to make some of us ill. That is pollution and vandalism and should be considered criminal. It takes one generation to fuck a land race, and much work(that will not be done) to repair it. Genes are lost alot easier than they are FOUND.

The proven clones perform. They are already useful in every respect. Amateur seedlings have too many poor traits to be useful. BECAUSE they cannot employ the proper scale of seedline improvement.
In REAL agri-settings, seeds are only used when they are truly improved seedlines, because the net return is too low to risk. Whenever a proven elite clone is feasible to use, they use them.
You dont think tobacco strains were produced by guessing amateurs with a few seedlings...nor were elite perennials, annuals, vegetables....

The 10 seeds that come in the post are not worth the 6 months waiting, only to find they are below average..over and over.

 

[headband 707]

I'm guessing the guy doesn't know and feels if it's good it's all good then lol.. I would feel the exact same way. Although I love to know my strains I have a really hard time believing anyone even the clubs as I think everyone is so full of shit!!!!!! So rare do you really get the strain your going for even in seed. peace out Headband707

 

[KingFriday]

Not to attribute to the shit storm here.

BUT!

You are all wrong. What is being produced are cultivars not varieties.

Varieties are a population within a species that are different in NATURAL populations.

Cultivars aka "Cultivated variety" was a term coined by L.H. Baily, different plants within a species developed vegatatively.

Examples would be: *IN SINGLE QUOTES!!!*

Cannabis indica 'Legends Ultimate Indica'
Cannabis sativa 'SSH'

Since everyone wants to get real deep into it at least be correct. This is coming from a Horticulture grad student. No disrespect to anyone.

Information that is correct, is that there a little to no cannabis strains. Few plants in this genus are true from seed.

 

[justjeff81]

I am definitely not the most knowledgable, but here's my 2 pennies.

2 years ago my wife was diagnosed with cervical cancer. We were both about 1/4 to 1/2 ounce a week smokers and we had been hearing a lot about prop 215 and decided to we were going to grow our own meds. Not in Cali but in a med state. Before that I had thrown a few bagseeds around in the spring and have hopes in the fall but never much success. Never new what to expect from what I was putting out.
A while back I found seed boutique and I'm damn glad I did. I haven't bought 1 seed pack that wasn't worth it. I like the fact that I can go to seed boo, look at the 1000's of "hack jobs", read the description, come to IC read feedback from others who have tried the "strain" or same variety and decide whether or not I want top buy that seed pack. In all fairness I don't have years of knowledge in growing yet, but every pack I've bought the description I've read before purchase has been pretty damn close to the results I get. Also I've never had a very big circle of friends and since my son was born 7 years ago it's gotten smaller so access to clones isn't there. I don't know shit about a dilluted genepool, but I know everything I've grown from labeled varieties has been grown into damn good pot that matches the description that I bought it for. So if you can hear me down here from up there on your high horse VanXant, hacks like gypsy and his breeding buddies helped in my wifes battle with cancer and provided us with the ability to grow our own grade A herbs with ease. I for one appreciate it.

 

[steppinRazor]

Gypsy,

You are "getting requests" for something that you are not delivering, man. You allow seedmakers to make claims about seedlots they threw together, and buyers expect what the seedmaker promises. Buyers are so happy to receive pot seeds in the mail that they are blinded by the process. Most of these buyers are very inexperienced at growing pot (as evidenced by even entertaining the idea of buying amateur-bred potseeds off the net)and do not understand that in a pack of 10-15 amateur seeds, the likelyhood of finding a truly good plant is next to impossible. They are happy with half-assed plants. They ALL grow into cannabis plants, but the seed description never just promises "cannabis". Naw, these guys have to assert that they are very skilled and experienced plant breeders whose parent plants are of the very best stock(really just offspring of a previous hackjob), they promise that the seeds will all produce very good plants with perfect growth, aroma, sexual stability, high yields,among many other un-truths that are easily swallowed by pot newbs. The handful of seeds these guys closet produce actually perform exactly like bag seeds; no better or worse. You are shipping bag seeds and charging people for the shipping and handling. And proud of it!

The gold rush of making quick and dirty seedlots has not created so much as ONE single new Cannabis gene, Gyspy. Not one. Quite the opposite. It has facilitated the LOSS of Cannabis genes. Im guessing that you do not want to understand that breeding with small populations CAUSES GENETIC EROSION, Gypsy. I think you know this is true; but you choose to allow it.
And to boast about your travels where you dilute the worlds land races with Western hackjobs is enough to make some of us ill. That is pollution and vandalism and should be considered criminal. It takes one generation to fuck a land race, and much work(that will not be done) to repair it. Genes are lost alot easier than they are FOUND.

The proven clones perform. They are already useful in every respect. Amateur seedlings have too many poor traits to be useful. BECAUSE they cannot employ the proper scale of seedline improvement.
In REAL agri-settings, seeds are only used when they are truly improved seedlines, because the net return is too low to risk. Whenever a proven elite clone is feasible to use, they use them.
You dont think tobacco strains were produced by guessing amateurs with a few seedlings...nor were elite perennials, annuals, vegetables....

The 10 seeds that come in the post are not worth the 6 months waiting, only to find they are below average..over and over.

 

[kopite]

You are all wrong. What is being produced are cultivars not varieties.

A cultivar would describe a clone would it not? in relation to cannabis

Kopite

 

[sparkjumper]

Gypsy said mailing clones is not really a feasible endeavor and I have to disagree.And this is from someone that never mailed a clone in his life,and they all got 3000 miles across country with all of them rooting.Likewise what was sent me all rooted also.Its no big deal I'd like to see more of it because the seeds I've grown in the past year or so have been pretty bunky

 

[VanXant]

jeff,

I know you are just relaying your story and thats cool. And I sincerely hope your wife has gotten relief from cannabis!

Let me ask you,
Are you just (loose quote)"throwing a few around in the Spring" of the seedbay/boutique seeds you bought, or are you cultivating them with more care?...now that your wife now has a medical need?

I suspect that since you paid money, and you were also provided a new internet experience, and a really cool 'seed description' with your purchase, AND now that you have an urgent medical need to get a harvest, you improved your cultivation/care of the bought seeds, because,

the seeds were the same quality.

Bag seeds from commercial indoor grow operations(where you WERE getting your seeds before) arise from plants that either were passed among growers for their status as good commercial plants -possibly elite genotypes-,... or they were from growers growing out 'strains' they were given or sold. In some cases, bag seeds can arise in your 1/4oz. from a seedmaker/grower who accidentally sold you a pollinated bud.

In ANY case, the breeding methods are ALL QUITE SIMILAR in that there is no large-scale recurrent selection for the polygenic traits. Did you know? The traits we deem important from drug cannabis are polygenic(controlled by more than one gene), and short-term breeding with small populations DOES NOT stabilize a cannabis population in polygenic traits. This creates nothing more than unstabilized polyhybrid offspring. These kinds of "breeding" are even LESS effective when MALES of unknown inheritance are involved.

Hey Hort Grad! What is being produced is not even a cultivar, by definition.
From wikipedia:
"Formal definition

The cultivar is defined in Art. 2 of the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants. In the 2004 edition (7th edition) this starts off by etablishing the cultivar as a category:

* "The cultivar is the primary category of cultivated plants whose nomenclature is governed by this Code. [...]" (Art. 2.1)

It then describes a cultivar as a unit in that category:

* "A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that has been selected for a particular attribute or combination of attributes, and that is clearly distinct, uniform and stable in those characteristics and that, when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characteristics." (Art. 2.2)"

All of this stuff is nothing more than a seed lot.

definition from Garden Web:

Seeds of a particular crop gathered at one time and likely to have similar germination rateshttp://glossary.gardenweb.com/glossary/germination_rate and other characteristics.

They are not STRAINS. They are not VARIETIES. They are not CULTIVARS.

Theyre seed lots. Unstabilized polyhybrid seed lots.