LED Lab 2009

Weezard · Oct 11, 2009

First read a book. Then post.

First read a book. Then post.

asde said:
yo i took a look at those theorem innovation bulbs.. just another shop who offers excellent advertising
just check out how they say their 300w is equivalent to 600w hps, they even post the ppf so its easier to compare - here we go:

300w theorem ti smart lamp: 183 umol/s (0.61/w)
600w hps green power: 1150 umol/s (1.92/w)

whoew those lights must be really amazing making up such a big loss by just the spd, theorem are fucking wizzards!!

"but let's fill in all the light wavelengths that an HPS produces, whether the plant uses 'em or not" (which negates one of leds' main advantage--targeted frequencies...)" -D. H.

183 Umols in the bush is worth 1150 umols bouncing off a bush.
Does that clear it up for ya?

Aloha
Weezard

pinstripe · Oct 12, 2009

Well quoted, Weeze

From curiosity, I've been looking for complete SPD graphs for HPSs. Haven't found one yet, although there was one showing up to 900nm wavelength. That HPS had a nice spike a little over 800nm.

I've got a little something running now. 22W of Golden Dragon Plus LEDs. http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=139586

asde · Oct 12, 2009

Weezard said:
183 Umols in the bush is worth 1150 umols bouncing off a bush.

>40% of the light from hps can be used by the plants - the light part which gives the most photons - even with 100% useful light from the leds it wont even get close to what the hps offers and as i said, they must be gods if they can make up that loss by just the spd - get real.

Weezard · Oct 12, 2009

Which real? I reject your reality, and substitute my own

Which real? I reject your reality, and substitute my own

asde;2765583[COLOR=darkred said:
]>40% of the light from hps can be used by the plants - the light part which gives the most photons [/COLOR]-
Could you cite your reference, please?

even with 100% useful light from the leds it wont even get close to what the hps offers and as i said, they must be gods if they can make up that loss by just the spd - get real.

What?
And give up my low rent big buds?
Nope! :noway:

Not gonna get real anytime soon.

Actually, I can't speak for Theoremes.
No got.
But, Old Mac got.
Side by side with HPS too.
(I like to A-B mine with sunlight.)
He no gonna get real either.

You like to measure umols.
(Kinda like to know how ya does dat)
We like to measure maxi-bud.
I know how to do dat. :joint:

At da end o da day.
You happy, we happy.

But real, I no get. :nanana:

Aloha,
Weeze

Weezard · Oct 12, 2009

HPS, LPS, LED, an it's free.

HPS, LPS, LED, an it's free.

pinstripe said:
Well quoted, Weeze From curiosity, I've been looking for complete SPD graphs for HPSs. Haven't found one yet, although there was one showing up to 900nm wavelength. That HPS had a nice spike a little over 800nm.

I've got a little something running now. 22W of Golden Dragon Plus LEDs. http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=139586

Does this help?

Enjoy,
Weeze

pinstripe · Oct 12, 2009

That one was great, Weeze. Very interesting, thx!

Although not quite the one I was looking for. I'm interested in the spectrum above 800nm, aka heat radiation. Maybe the answer simply is: nope, none. Don't know for sure.

knna · Oct 12, 2009

On our experiments, the best improvement we are getting is about doubling that of HPS spectrums. I hope we will be able to improve it more yet, but achiving 3x the spectral efficacy of HPS seems a dream righ now.

A 600W HPS emits about 1100uE (many, a little less, some, a little more). When using a reflector, avalaible photons drops on average to 875uE or so. So, still with a doubled spectral efficacy of a LED lamp, we need 437uE in order to be able to compare with it.

183uE is very far from that figure. Still if it gets 3x the spectral efficacy of HPS, it will equal to 550uE of HPS, far yet from 875uE.

I think 2x the spectral efficacy is a very great improvement over HPSs. But we need to be aware of excessive claims of LED lamp's sellers. Its almost impossible to get same from 183uE than from 875uE, except if the 875 ones are used wrong and get an anormal low perfomance.

Oldmac · Oct 12, 2009

asde said:
yo i took a look at those theorem innovation bulbs.. just another shop who offers excellent advertising
just check out how they say their 300w is equivalent to 600w hps, they even post the ppf so its easier to compare - here we go:

300w theorem ti smart lamp: 183 umol/s (0.61/w)
600w hps green power: 1150 umol/s (1.92/w)

whoew those lights must be really amazing making up such a big loss by just the spd, theorem are fucking wizzards!!

"just another shop who offers excellent advertising"... How many other LED light mfg/sellers can you list that actually provide photon energy? TI's claims are well within reason, especially if you look at the wild claims made by most Chinese LED crap promoters.

I'll stand by the statement, Theoreme Innovation is producing the best available off the shelf LED grow lights today.

Can better lights be made, yes. But we will have to build them ourselves.

Oldmac · Oct 12, 2009

Hey knna,

Does the TI Pro-Booms claim of 183uE seem correct or reasonable to you? I realize this is short of a 600w HPS, but there is a metric shit load of unusable light with the HPS.

I've just moved the pair I have to a new set up that is an aero/fog grow tray. Put the 2 of them on a light rail to cover 4'x4' as an experiment, we hope to put 4 of the TI's over the tray soon. That will be 732uE over 16sqft, not going for power savings just max grow power.

Pic of getting ready.

knna · Oct 12, 2009

Oldmac said:
Hey knna,

Does the TI Pro-Booms claim of 183uE seem correct or reasonable to you? I realize this is short of a 600w HPS, but there is a metric shit load of unusable light with the HPS.

I've just moved the pair I have to a new set up that is an aero/fog grow tray. Put the 2 of them on a light rail to cover 4'x4' as an experiment, we hope to put 4 of the TI's over the tray soon. That will be 732uE over 16sqft, not going for power savings just max grow power.

Pic of getting ready.

Yep, that 183uE figure seems pretty reasonable. And stating it accords to an honest seller, that gives actual light emission from the lamp.

I think it still exaggerates with perfomance compared with HPS lamps, but its far from the wild claims of other sellers.

For me, the problem it has is the brick design with a glass barrier, that does difficult to get an higher light emission. The 0.6uE/W figure already includes all losses, so its all avalaible light, but I believe we need to go past 1 uE/W of LED light in order to save watts respect to HPSs in a way a LED lamp results cost competitive.

If the spectral efficacy improvement of the TIs over HPSs is about 2x that we are getting on the spanish group, the 0.6uE figure allows to get similar yield using similar watts than enclosed HPSs. Give or take, similar results on a installed watts basis.

A doubled efficiency for a LED lamps, around 1.2uE/W is achievable with current LED tecnology, and that would allows to double the perfomance (g/W) of HPS, reducing watts to half in order to get similar yield. With 1-1.1uE/W, that is way easier than the 1.2 figure, that needs edge technology or underpowered LEDs (expensive), may reduce watts to 60% of HPS watts, and that must be cost effective if the initial cost is not excessively high, with the aditional advantages due reducing cooling needs.

I believe that if the TI manufacturers uses the highest bins avalaible and work on reducing the optical loss due the glass barrier, it may reach that 1uE/W emission without many problems.

There are many red LED models right now emitting at 1.2uE/W still when running hard, as top bins of Lux Rebels, Osram Golden Dragon, Cree XP or SSC P4 that arnt expensive. Running soft, they reach 1.5uE/W figures.

With the new perfomance breakthrough of the Cree XP-G, with 139lm/W at 1W and 105lm/W at 3.3W, meaning blue chip's efficiencies well past 50%, probably around 60% at 350mA, probably there is going to be new LED lamps models achieving emission figures well over 1uE/W. And probably many existing lamps, as the TI, will upgrade to those levels on 6 months or still less (it will depend of the amount of stocked lamps, though).

Definitivelly, you must expects great buds using that light density. There are two guys on the spanish group trying similar light densities right now, and their plant's growth is being amazing. They are starting flowering right now :woohoo:

Oldmac · Oct 12, 2009

I keep waiting and waiting to build another light, hoping the "next" generation of diodes arrives soon (and that I can afford them). I'm in total agreement about a block design being limited, that's why I keep looking at 4' (120cm) long heat sink material. LOL

I had thought about removing the glass from the TI's, but when you see how dirty it can get....it's a lot easier to clean the glass then 150 diodes.

From the experiments we've done so far with the TI's, we were convinced that 4 of them will do some serious growing. I even have some good feelings about using just 2 with the light rail, but just in case I'm going to go to a 14hr photoperiod. I figure what I lose in intensity I'll try to get back with more duration.

asde · Oct 12, 2009

@knna: very good post, beein able to explain in a good way is one of my weakness - you got my respect now as you seem to not be blended by what random so called companys claim, you seem to know what you talk about while beein able to do 1by1 comparisons with explanations - big up
BUT keep in mind the cannabiscafe forums (i think you talk about those) are not the best place to gather informations from as they started selling leds on their forums based on lies already like 2 years ago, i dunno if it changed by now but this forum been a real goldmine for corrupt sellers back in the days

@oldmac: it doesnt matter if they say its equal to 600w hps or 600000w hps if in the end it remains a lie, im not trying to make YOU(except if you work for them ;p) look bad them and i got a reason for it, hope you understand that im not after trouble but help even if its hard for me to keep objective sometimes, sorry

knna · Oct 12, 2009

Asde, spanish cannabiscafe is different from the english site. Its a long story, they were started together, as part of a deal between the original idea person (latinoamerican) and the owner (who puts the money on those distant days, when there wasnt cannabis forums). The spanish site was apart of the business of the US site, but when traffic becomes huge, owner becomes greedy. At the end, forum members rebel and created their own "cannabiscafe", that is owned by forum members, so its not linked to any seeds or other cannabis related products bussiness.

LowGrow · Oct 13, 2009

seen this on a site and thought someone may be interested...
"whether LEDs are better to grow plants is questionable. Researchers at the Nebeser Co. in Tokyo tried experiments with different colors of LED lights. Of all the colors of light tested, the pink LED light produced the most balanced and healthiest plant."

Weezard · Oct 13, 2009

pop science

pop science

LowGrow said:
seen this on a site and thought someone may be interested...
"whether LEDs are better to grow plants is questionable. Researchers at the Nebeser Co. in Tokyo tried experiments with different colors of LED lights. Of all the colors of light tested, the pink LED light produced the most balanced and healthiest plant."

Thanks Lowgrow.

Actually, that was the Nebesei Co. a long time back.
And the "pink" led light was good old red and blue LEDs.

They did three grows.
1 all red.
1 all blue.
and one of both red and blue.
Reporter called it pink.
Looks purple to me.

Take anything you find on E-how with a few grains of salt, brah.

Aloha,
Weezard

TrickyRicky · Oct 13, 2009

hello all, I am Going to Start a Grow After 30 Years of not Growing (& Smoking!!) I used High Times as a Grow Guide & used grow-lux Lights then! to the point. for Flowering ,what do you all think of this LED Set up on Ebay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...39542&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Thanks Tricky :joint:

expnow · Oct 13, 2009

TrickyRicky said:
hello all, I am Going to Start a Grow After 30 Years of not Growing (& Smoking!!) I used High Times as a Grow Guide & used grow-lux Lights then! to the point. for Flowering ,what do you all think of this LED Set up on Ebay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320424239542&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Thanks Tricky

I would not get that. It will barely be enough to keep a vegging plant going. What I found to be the most effective after trying 4 different LED setups was the 90w 7Red:1Blue:1White ratio. For the grow area I would recommend a 2x2 with mylar walls. I have not tried to flower with just the 90w, I would recommend throwing in some 2700k CFLs when ready for flowering.

If I had to compare the 90w tri spec to a HPS I would say its close to a 250-300w for vegging. Flowering with about 100watt of CFL added, you should be able to get as good if not better results then a 250-300w flowering.
Here is a link to one of the 90w UFOs that I have found to be effective.

http://cgi.ebay.com/90W-FULL-SPECTR...ryZ42225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Weezard · Oct 13, 2009

TrickyRicky said:
hello all, I am Going to Start a Grow After 30 Years of not Growing (& Smoking!!) I used High Times as a Grow Guide & used grow-lux Lights then! to the point. for Flowering ,what do you all think of this LED Set up on Ebay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320424239542&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Thanks Tricky

Aloha.

Weezard

TrickyRicky · Oct 14, 2009

Hey Guys, Is this any good? I thought, I Read in this thread That Yellow & orange LEDs is Better In Late Flowering. My flowering cabnet is 18" X 26" & 5.5' Tall. I have an 18" x 26" & 27" high for veg I'm Not in a big hurry to get a Flowing Light Right now, I won't be to that Stage of my grow for two months or so. i Want to Go with LEDs To Keep The Heat down. All Advice is welcome! tell me What You think! All i need is 3 to 4 oz. Evrery six months or so. Thanks, Tricky http://cgi.ebay.com/90W-FULL-SPECTR...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b394b170

expnow · Oct 14, 2009

TrickyRicky said:
Hey Guys, Is this any good? I thought, I Read in this thread That Yellow & orange LEDs is Better In Late Flowering. My flowering cabnet is 18" X 26" & 5.5' Tall. I have an 18" x 26" & 27" high for veg I'm Not in a big hurry to get a Flowing Light Right now, I won't be to that Stage of my grow for two months or so. i Want to Go with LEDs To Keep The Heat down. All Advice is welcome! tell me What You think! All i need is 3 to 4 oz. Evrery six months or so. Thanks, Tricky http://cgi.ebay.com/90W-FULL-SPECTR...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b394b170

Tricky like I said I would go with the RED, BLUE, WHITE. I have seen the best results with that.

LED Lab 2009

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