Epigenetics:)

[englishrick]

Yup... Healthier plants make healthier seeds.

I'd wager mendel much harder to shock than you assume.

maybe your right about mendal.....maybe he would need a lil more covincing

but when you say "Healthier",,,what do you mean exactly?????????,,,,,,,,,fitness,vigor,,,,,,,,,what qualifies MY seeds as Healthier than my friends????

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Well, Seeds are storage. Seeds contain what the plant needs for its first couple of weeks of life. The more resources the plant can dedicate to the seed, the bigger and healthier the seeds will be.

I've made thousands of seeds, and seen over and over... Healthy plants with fewer pollinated calyx make bigger seeds. If the plant is not completely healthy or if the plant is heavily seeded the seeds are smaller. If the plant is not healthy and heavily seeded then the seeds won't fully develop.

I think to some degree, what you are attributing to epigenetics, is merely evidence of well cared for healthy plants.

 

[englishrick]

but.....if you continue to grow the "Healthier" seeds in the same "Healthier Enviroment",,,,an emagine you continue to grow the "unhealthy" in the UnhealthyEnviroment too.......would the 2 lines geneticly differ given time and sucsessive generations?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

any line bred population which is kept distinct from a separate distinct line bred population will eventually genetically differ if the two populations are maintained in consistent environments with significant differences, even though both lines started out identical.

This is easily explainable within conventional genetic paradigms, and is not evidence of 'soft inheritance'.

 

[englishrick]

do we agree?.....similar topology,,,but not the same topology!,,,,,,???

is this NOT Soft Inheritance?,,,,

i would now call them "REMOVED" from oneanother,,,,,when phenotypes are nolonger just an epistatic variations of the same line,,,,,,the difference is genetic,,,,no?

 

[englishrick]

thanks for your time head,,,your cool to talk to....thanks man

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Oh, Rick. Look what you've done. Nothing good can come of this.

Are you aware you've already confused phenotype with epigenetics. Grow half of his small and half of your big seeds all in your environment and see if you can tell the difference then. I think you've managed to derail your own topic in a day...


And I already regret pulling some of those Charles quotes. The one you posted on page one has absolutely nothing to do with epigenetics.

 

[englishrick]

Oh, Rick. Look what you've done. Nothing good can come of this..

honestly ,your sutch an grumpy 1,,,,,i wish i could make you crack a smile just once...that will be the day eh?,,,,,,thanks for replying on my thread anyways bro....i value all your imput ,,,even tho you make me look like a limp dick,,,,did it crack?

Are you aware you've already confused phenotype with epigenetics. Grow half of his small and half of your big seeds all in your environment and see if you can tell the difference then. I think you've managed to derail your own topic in a day.....

NO,,,i was not aware of this...

are you sayin that phenotype is not effected by epigenetics?

And I already regret pulling some of those Charles quotes. The one you posted on page one has absolutely nothing to do with epigenetics.

you did a good thing,,,,,,you inspired me...lol...so funny

 

[GreenintheThumb]

No, I said nothing about epigenetic's effect on phenotype. In fact, epigenetics ONLY effects the phenotype. As mentioned all epigenetic effects are transitory and none effect the genotype. I simply am saying the reason your seeds are bigger than your buddies, which are exactly genetically the same, is because of environmental effects that caused different phenotypes. If you pollinate a lady a little early you may get many small seeds, if you pollinate her later you may get larger seeds. Not to mention the phenotype differences due to your food, temp, lights, and medium.

Now if you really want to try to pry apart any epigenetic effects here you would need to grow his seeds to your seeds in the SAME environment. Then you would know the differences observed were due to the differences in the environments when the parents were grown and seed was set. These proposed differences would be due to differences in gene expression caused by the differences in the parent's environment. THAT is an epigenetic effect.

My guess is you'll find no major differences and you most likely lack the time skill space and effort required to say much of anything with statistical certainty. (not exactly sure how big your garden is but you spend so much time posting I'll assume you're not running 12kw)

As far as epigenetics is considered in general, with respect to cannabis, we know nothing; nothing at all. Maybe one day we'll learn that there's a perfect temperature for mother plants to be in when pollination occurs that ensures the expression of intersex genes won't happen. Or something along those lines. But for now just grow the plants in the best environment you can when making the seed, just like we've all always done.

smile for your limp dicked troubles.

 

[VerdantGreen]

epigenetic expression sounds a bit like phenotypic expression to me - perhaps someone can explain the difference.
and, if it has some permamnent effect, how do heirlooms like the cheese or ,in wider horticulture, cox's orange pippin get cloned/grafted for many years yet still stay the same??

V.

as for "adaptation is mutation" surely that is inaccurate as without natural selection how would the advantageous mutation live on to alter the future genetics

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Epigenetic effects are heritable. You don't expect most environmental affects (never know when it's affect vs effect, my professors would be pissed) to be inherited. Usually you have a genotype, you put it in a particular environment, you get a phenotype. If you then grow the kids out you don't expect that old environment to affect the children. Turns out it some situations it can. There was a study where they took fruit flies and if they put the embryo at a certain temperature the fly came out having red eyes. This is the normal phenotype thing we all understand (it can be the reason the cheese looks slightly different in your garden than your friends). The surprise is that when they mated these flies the progeny also had the red eyes, and this was true for several generations. The DNA of the flies hasn't been changed, it's simply an environmental affect that deals with gene expression, not mutation or other permanent changes.

Epigenetics investigates heritable alterations in gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in DNA sequence. Here's a proper definition: “an epigenetic trait is a stably inherited phenotype resulting from changes in a chromosome without alterations in the DNA sequence.”

As far as your observation about old clones: This is why I think some of epigenetics is hype. Sure it's a nice buzz word for stoners to throw around on here like they know something; and they sure love to quote papers (actually they prefer the press releases and other media reports, it's easier that way ) talking about this revolutionary change to genetics. Sure it is novel, and cool, and no doubt does have an effect (affect, damn i should get that straight) but it isn't as important as some make it out. I put genes first because they're all the possible variation we'll observe, then I put environment because it's the filter through which we observe the genes. It will change the expression of the genes but as you said: clones are clones. We can all agree Cheese and OG Kush are great regardless of the differences in environment that make different phenos of these clones. Epigenetics I put last because it's concerned with the ancestor's environment. Big surprise, what your plants are growing in now matter more than the environment her great great grandmother was stuck in. We can't even agree on a Y chromosome, we're completely clueless when it comes to marijuana's epigenome.

 

[kopite]

Usually you have a genotype, you put it in a particular environment, you get a phenotype. If you then grow the kids out you don't expect that old environment to affect the children. Turns out it some situations it can.

I've been led to believe it can effect for future generations, but then all of sudden can change or revert back.... (its not something I fully understand)

 

[VerdantGreen]

so in laymens terms, somehow certain parts of the genetic code can be 'activated' in relation to environmental factors, and these activated parts can remain activated in subsequent generation regardless of the environment that the progeny are grown in??

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

so in laymens terms, somehow certain parts of the genetic code can be 'activated' in relation to environmental factors, and these activated parts can remain activated in subsequent generation regardless of the environment that the progeny are grown in??

No. Future generations will revert once the environmental conditions have not been present for a while.

 

[englishrick]

Now if you really want to try to pry apart any epigenetic effects here you would need to grow his seeds to your seeds in the SAME environment. Then you would know the differences observed were due to the differences in the environments when the parents were grown and seed was set. These proposed differences would be due to differences in gene expression caused by the differences in the parent's environment. THAT is an epigenetic effect..

it gets better Green,,,,,the seeds are Cheese S1,,,,,the polen was from a reverced Cheese clone,,,,,im lettin T grow his small seeds and il grow my large ones,,,,,,then im going to repolinate with the origonal polen,,,,,,,,its a wickid project in my eyes,,,,,,epigentics seems to be a vairiable of this semi controled expeiment and maybe its allready raised its head,,,soft inheritance could easly be part of my results

My guess is you'll find no major differences and you most likely lack the time skill space and effort required to say much of anything with statistical certainty. (not exactly sure how big your garden is but you spend so much time posting I'll assume you're not running 12kw).

im not just on icmag,,how single minded would that be,,,my time is handdled well G, lol...

UK kids dont go crazy with lights like them guys in the USA, we leave the stupid grows to the chineese 100amps lol,,, a single ringmain in a standard UK home is only 32 amps,,,100amp is the max your gona get outa the whole house,,,,,,,,,if i count my mates lights at there houses,,,, 12kw is nothin,,,more than that is runnin right now easly,,,wait till 8 tonight an electric prices go down an that figure that will skyrocket,,,,thats what being cool with mates can do,,,,,ive worked in a headshops in town centers across the UK for most of my adult life,,,an ive sold more seeds than anyone i know,,,[/QUOTE]

smile for your limp dicked troubles.

an you said,,,,, "nothing good will come of this".....have some fun G

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

That's what is so fun about pseudoscience, it is all so subjective and unobservable in any meaningful way. If you can demonstrate anything which would be unexplainable by conventional plant science, mendelian inheritance, and phenotypical variation, then i'll be impressed, Rick. I'll even write a letter on your behalf to several major universities recommending an honorary degree for you in botany.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Kopite- You are correct sir. Always a pleasure

VG- yes, but those changes in expression aren't coded on the DNA and they eventually "wash out." The amount of time it takes is dependent on the species and the trait. I think they took the fly study past generation 10 and it still had red eyes. Other effects could disappear sooner. Also, some of the genetic code can be 'suppressed' just like it can be 'activated'.

Greatfulhead- first and foremost: your name is great. But the epigenome is real and certainly not pseudoscience. Spend a night reading induced twin pig studies and I think you'll agree. The epigenetic case is pretty damn rock solid. What Rick does is pseudoscience eigenetics is the real deal.

Rick- I told you the best way to take a gander at epigenetic effects with the seeds you and your friend made. Big surprise, it fell on deaf ears. Your wicked plan is to backcross Cheese S1s? Good luck with all of that. I'm sure you couldn't make good Cheese seeds if you had Sam himself holding your hand every step of the way.

I must admit the thought of you muddying up another forum with your misguided ideas and plain lack of knowledge does turn my stomach. Slow down a bit Rick, it's tough enough cleaning up all your threads on one forum.

Many houses in UK only have 32 amp service? That sounds pretty low. My air conditioner alone would trip your breakers? That doesn't make sense. What if someone wanted to vacuum while the oven was on? And the thought of you running 12kw gardens and using them to sell seed and change the genepool is



But your right Rick, making fun of your limp dick and cleaning up your shit storm of a thread was a bit of fun. Here's another smile for ya

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Greatfulhead- first and foremost: your name is great. But the epigenome is real and certainly not pseudoscience. Spend a night reading induced twin pig studies and I think you'll agree. The epigenetic case is pretty damn rock solid. What Rick does is pseudoscience eigenetics is the real deal.

agreed. ricks specific efforts at proving his concepts about epigenetic traits applicability to cannabis breeding is what i was calling pseudoscience. Epigenetics is a sound concept, with greater implications for cannabis growing than cannabis breeding.

 

[englishrick]

Kopite- You are correct sir. Always a pleasure

VG- yes, but those changes in expression aren't coded on the DNA and they eventually "wash out." The amount of time it takes is dependent on the species and the trait. I think they took the fly study past generation 10 and it still had red eyes. Other effects could disappear sooner. Also, some of the genetic code can be 'suppressed' just like it can be 'activated'.

Greatfulhead- first and foremost: your name is great. But the epigenome is real and certainly not pseudoscience. Spend a night reading induced twin pig studies and I think you'll agree. The epigenetic case is pretty damn rock solid. What Rick does is pseudoscience eigenetics is the real deal.

Rick- I told you the best way to take a gander at epigenetic effects with the seeds you and your friend made. Big surprise, it fell on deaf ears. Your wicked plan is to backcross Cheese S1s? Good luck with all of that. I'm sure you couldn't make good Cheese seeds if you had Sam himself holding your hand every step of the way.

I must admit the thought of you muddying up another forum with your misguided ideas and plain lack of knowledge does turn my stomach. Slow down a bit Rick, it's tough enough cleaning up all your threads on one forum.

Many houses in UK only have 32 amp service? That sounds pretty low. My air conditioner alone would trip your breakers? That doesn't make sense. What if someone wanted to vacuum while the oven was on? And the thought of you running 12kw gardens and using them to sell seed and change the genepool is



But your right Rick, making fun of your limp dick and cleaning up your shit storm of a thread was a bit of fun. Here's another smile for ya

32amps on a single ringmain,,,,100amps is available from the average UK home consumer unit,,,,remember im also a builder,,,,most magnetic ballast fire up at 6amps,,,,your the one not makin sence now kido..

im not even gona raise to the limp dick comment,,,,,lol,,,,,it seems to be the 1 thing that makes you smile,,,

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Greatfulhead- Well that makes a lot more sense. I was going to say you sure do know a lot about this pseudoscience Take care.

Rick- I truly am a bundle of sunshine.