mycorrhizae with organics

[maryjohn]

by spaghetti ganja, I mean the worm bin. the number of worms at the surface goes up exponentially when the bokashi bran is present, giving a noodles look. I tried to take a picture but it's hard - they retreat as soon as the light is on.

by "keeping tabs on" my em, I mean that as the bottle inflates from fermentation I can get visual confirmation, as all air is voided at the start. That way I don't open the bottle until the end. Not sure If I am doing anything special, just following the directions. I don't put too much stock in those who train with Dr. Higa. They will try to sell you infra red salt and magic ceramics.

as for the coco, I was looking for a longer lasting bedding that does not compress to make anaerobic pockets. Since I am using EM, which is supposed to break down lignin, I figure why not.

as for worms not being meat eaters, I don't believe they discriminate, and the hydrolysate adds to the microbial activity in the bin. I manage it like soil, and I'm not not feeding the worms any more than you are feeding plants.

 

[ganja din]

That would be great, thank you.

No problem. If I don't do it in the next few days PM me to remind me

FWIW, much of what I wrote regarding Luebke compost (CMC) is 'off the books'. There is very little lit. in English regarding CMC, sadly. One must attend a CMC seminar to learn the some of the things I posted. If you are really interested in 'humus management' and CMC, I can send you a program I have been working on which is very on topic. It won't be done for a while, but I think you'll find it extremely useful. For now, what I wrote and that paper by Steve Diver is about as much info as your going to be able to find, save the other couple of papers I have. There is also a very good article by one of the Luebe's top 'students', it's about adding minerals to compost when making the pile. It's called "Remineralize the Earth", or something very similar. I have it on my computer somewhere. It explains the theory behind some of CMC's main inputs (ie. volcanic rock dust, etc)

Cool. I am using live spores. Can AM fungi form a mycelium without a host root?

Not that I am aware. I have only recently read of them forming 'thick' hyphal 'knots' when cultured on agar, 'seemingly' feeding off of a certain bacteria. But only under very specific conditions thus far. I don't think you can do the same, the study was pretty specific about species of bacteria.

Yes I was. What role would ectomycorrhizal fungi play with cannabis? Do any of the AM fungi produce a mushroom?

I'm not sure. Not all ectomycorrhial fungi are "fungi perfecti" (fruiting), many are "fungi imperfecti" (non-fruiting). Many AM fungi inoculants also contain ectomycorrhizal fungi which offer benefits to associated host plants.

No, AM fungi do not produce mushrooms.

Yeah, I am using specific trees and specific mushrooms, I.E. Live oak with Chanterelles, Ponderosa Pine with Boletus Edulis, Manzanita with Leccinum Manzanitae, etc.

Nice!

I am concerned about whether there is already an ectomycorrhizal fungi association that would prevent the species I introduce from grabbing hold. But could I also start seedlings in areas where I know have certain mushrooms?

As far as I understand, ectomycorrhizal fungus which is in mycorrhiza assocition with the tree will not try to 'stop' other ectomycorrhizal fungi from also infecting the tree. But, I am not sure that would happen. In Nature things only happen if they need to...

Do you mean tree seedlings? Sure. But if the fungi are not symbiont or do not have a synergistic relationship to the seedling/tree I don't' see the value. It's not very hard to identify fungi to genus when you have a mushroom to look at and take the surroundings into account.

Well I know that EM fungi can fruit far away from the actual tree, where the roots can still stretch out. How far can fungi stretch out from a host trees roots?

Good question. I don't know. Far I assume. It has been found that a fungus in N.W. Oregon is a single organism and it' like 70 miles across! (facts not accurate, but close enough)

My goal is to get EM mushrooms to fruit under their corresponding host. Any studies/papers on that would be amazing.

I have a few. Truffles are by far the most finicky I know of. However, please realize that many fungi perfecti ectomycorrhizal fungi take years to infect, and then start producing fruit bodies you can harvest (if that's your goal).

You are right. I am still interested to know what type of effect ectomycorrhizal fungi play with cannabis though.

Me too .

• Here is a good list of ectomycorrhizal fungi associated host plants/trees:
  http://www.hortsorb.com/Ectomycorrhizal_Fungi_Associates.asp
  
• .
• Another good list of AM fungi associations:
  (but remember that most every AM fungi can infect most every (AM fungi) mycorrhizal plant/tree/etc:
  http://www.horticulturalalliance.com/Plant_Species_and_Type_of_Mycorrhizae.asp

Also, there are some cool journals that deal with the subject. Mycorrhiza and Mycoscience. Have you read those? Semms like there is a wealth of knowledge in those.

Yea they are very good, I not too familiar with either though, sadly. I am going to check them out in depth tomorrow. I tend to use Google "Scholar" search function, I find tons of on-topic material that way. I also have access to huge University library system Though, I do want to purchase a subscription to like 10-15 journals, I assume there is sooo much cool info missed when one does not read the whole journal on each release. Too bad it's generally expensive to get a membership. (I probably have over $4,000 worth of journal articles on my computer I got for free )



PS. If you have references for journal articles you would like to read you can PM me the list. I can probally get them all for free.

Thanks again.

NP

 

[ganja din]

by spaghetti ganja, I mean the worm bin. the number of worms at the surface goes up exponentially when the bokashi bran is present, giving a noodles look. I tried to take a picture but it's hard - they retreat as soon as the light is on.

Ah! Thanks for that, I miss the obvious sometime

by "keeping tabs on" my em, I mean that as the bottle inflates from fermentation I can get visual confirmation, as all air is voided at the start. That way I don't open the bottle until the end. Not sure If I am doing anything special, just following the directions.

Yea that is the standard method. Next time you may want to try the ratios I gave you for EM:molasses:water and AEM:molasses:water (for fermenting wheat bran). The info I gave you about fermenting EM into AEM is better than the directions the EM company provides, trust me

I don't put too much stock in those who train with Dr. Higa. They will try to sell you infra red salt and magic ceramics.

Awww, come'on now . But I know what you mean. However, Eastern cultures have a different view of 'energy' (eg. "chi) then we do. Irregardless, no matter where you get your EM it is from people who trained with Dr. Higa (if you get it from EMRO or SCD World; otherwise it's not EM). Your comment is similar to my point about Dr. Higa's [translated] claim that EM has "nuclear energy" (or something very similar).

BTW, the EM Mother Culture from SCD World is superior to that of EMRO, in my opinion, and the opinion of other people I trust. Vinny Pinto was consulted by SCD World...

as for the coco, I was looking for a longer lasting bedding that does not compress to make anaerobic pockets.

Well, worms usually live/stay in the top 3 inches of bedding. How deep is your bedding/food? Have your read the great book "Worms Eat My Garbage"? You can get it from any local library. It's good.

Since I am using EM, which is supposed to break down lignin, I figure why not.

Huh? Where did you read that? Could you please give me a link? Im pretty positive no microbes in EM (from either company) are known as primary lignin degraders. Fungi is most effective at degrading lignin but there are some species of bacteria that can also degrade lignin.

FWIW, current science states a majority of humus which ends up in finsihed compost is derived from the lignin within the pile...

as for worms not being meat eaters, I don't believe they discriminate, and the hydrolysate adds to the microbial activity in the bin. I manage it like soil, and I'm not not feeding the worms any more than you are feeding plants.

It's a free world. But I would add molasses not h.fish. Molasses 'feeds' mainly bacteria, which is the 'food' of choice for most 'vermiculture' worms. OTOH, h.fish 'feeds' mostly fungi, along with some bacteria...

I want to say thanks for being a cool person. We got off on the wrong foot but I like where we are now.

 

[ganja din]

@ quadracer

Don't forgot to order compost fleece! CMC requires it. Enough fleece to cover two piles, both 3.5'x3.5'x4', would be about 30-40' long. That costs about $80-100. I think it's ~$3.00 a foot.

You will LOVE it, especially if you have ever composted without a fleece you will see a *huge* difference

 

[ganja din]

I guess I should rephrase that

Since this is a Cannabis forum and normally we do not discuss forest reclamation much, then why are we talking about one species that is known not to benefit cannabis?

One quick point of clarification. We are discussing a whole 'type' of fungi, not a species, not even a genus. "AM" (Arbuscular Mycorrhizal) fungi refers to the myriad of fungi which are mycorrhzial and form "arbuscules" within the root. The "arbuscule" is how the fungi 'feed' and give the plant what it wants. The hyphae enters the root and then the tip of the hyphae open up like a flower, but to me, looks more like a bullet after it hits a wall (smooshed).

And this quote: "that is known not to benefit cannabis?" is not accurate. I might have misrepresented something, if so I apologize. AM fungi will absolutely infect Cannabis spp.. But, the question is whether that fact becomes moot once we add low-moderate levels of 'ferts' with P which is fast to med-fast available (ex. bone and blood meal, hoof meal, bat guano, etc), and also when we take infection time into account.

Alll the best

 

[vonforne]

Thanksfor all the info. And since you have posted cannabis related info .......and I missed it then that tells me to re-read te thread. Like I said it is over my right now. I need things simplified........I am not as young and smart as some of the younger members here so I do need as much help as possible.

What is you next subject?

V

 

[ganja din]

Thanksfor all the info.

Your very welcome. One reason I like to help others is it keeps this info fresh in my head. I don't like to rely upon notes, I like to keep everything in my mind. But, don't get me wrong, I have TONS of notes, haha, I just don't like to use them...kind of like a crutch, ya know?

And since you have posted cannabis related info .......and I missed it then that tells me to re-read te thread.

Well I don't think I explicitly stated, 'this is about cannabis'. It really is only about Cannabis sativa L. ruderalis, not C.sativa or C.indica. However, keep in mind when you re-read this, that *all* the studies I am referring to and all the info I am relaying is directly applicable to, Cannabis.

And I look at it this way: Considering I found many errors in a 32 page mini-book about AM fungi written by a pretty well known PhD who specializes in AM fungi, with the main goal of teaching specialists in the field (ex. consultants, etc) to become "experts", anyone who didn't need to take time to read and digest it all would be a mutant!

Like I said it is over my right now.

That's no big deal. If you are willing to re-read the tread again, and maybe a few posts a few more times, you will easily understand it all, I have a good feeling about you I like to take lots of notes when I am learning something new.

Please keep in mind I went way off-topic and wrote much info I don't believe one can find anywhere else, short of reading and analyzing and taking notes on hundreds of journal articles. A lot of what I wrote is VERY valuable to most people here and like I said, is unknown to all but a few people not in an ivory tower, MicrobeMan being one of them. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but much info I provided is far advanced over, and more accurate than many other source I know of.

Some topics I covered (some more thoroughly than others) you may want to look out for:

• bokashi
• silage
• EM and AEM
• LAB serum and LAB pure culture
• advanced composting
• info on microbial biofertlizers and how organic P turns into chemical P
• usage of raw OM (Organic Matter)
• "Controlled Microbial Composting" from the Luebke family
• vermiculture
• compost fleece
• disease suppression (PM)
• nitrogen reclamation while composting
• 'humus management' and the clay-humus-ca aggregate
• that Dutch Master Penetrator (regular and gold) is a scam
• Proper Cannanbis spp. taxonomy and nomenclature
• etc
• etc

I think the info I wrote and the great paper by Steve Diver, along with the referenced article "Reminerizle the Earth" might be my 'best' contribution to this community, and organic growing. Well, to those who compost that is. This info can not be found elsewhere that I know of. There is very little lit. (in English) about Luekbe composting and it's too bad. Much I wrote about CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) and "ammonification" via. "nitrogen volatilization", and stuff about clay-loam, etc, can not be found outside of an expensive course to learn CMC (Controlled Microbial Composting) or extensive journal article and literature review.

I need things simplified........I am not as young and smart as some of the younger members here so I do need as much help as possible.

Well my writing style in this thread is about as simple as I can get. I just don't know how to write 'less confusingly'. Sorry. But, if you read this thread a few pages at a time, so you can absorb and digest the info, you have no trouble. It's not like I have a degree in anything, I just happen to be pretty good at teaching myself things I am interested in...

Anyway I can help let me know, and if you need something explained a few times so be it!

Please don't' forget: I could have easily written something incorrect, or my understand of issue(s) might be incorrect. However, to the best of my knowledge, everything I wrote is accurate, at least I hope!

What is you next subject?

V

Haha. What do you want to know about? (seriously). However, I have little time to devote here. I have already been here wayyy to much this past week. But once I opened Pandora's Box with my first post I thought I would be very rude and lame of me to not stay and try to help people who wanted my help. I could write about many topics, but I fear none will be written to the satisfaction of most IC member's (as is apparent by the many negative posts in this thread).

All the best

 

[vonforne]

but I fear none will be written to the satisfaction of most IC member's (as is apparent by the many negative posts in this thread).

We are a `shunned`people is why some of us have a difficult time accepting others not of the grow community. You must consider that you get to openly do research while we must hide in a closet with the ever present fear of imprisonment. Just for growing a weed.

But your information is much appreciated along with Microbeman and CT. We have come to accept and learn from you guys.

It just takes some time is all.

I will get back to you tonight with a suggestion for the next topic. I have to think on that one......and being a little slow it might take me some time to think of one I feel would be the most useful subject to us. Microbeman has been schooling us on the proper procedures for ACT.

Have a nice day.

V

 

[maryjohn]

Ah! Thanks for that, I miss the obvious sometime


Yea that is the standard method. Next time you may want to try the ratios I gave you for EM:molasses:water and AEM:molasses:water (for fermenting wheat bran). The info I gave you about fermenting EM into AEM is better than the directions the EM company provides, trust me

I will try your ratio next time. thanks! btw I figured out your quoting trick... I'm not talking about ratios, but rather the total amount of liquid relative to the volume of the container. I guess I am a bit higher than the standard ratio because I leave about 75mL of potential space for gas, but ferment with the bottle deflated at first. I need to do pics.

Awww, come'on now . But I know what you mean. However, Eastern cultures have a different view of 'energy' (eg. "chi) then we do. Irregardless, no matter where you get your EM it is from people who trained with Dr. Higa (if you get it from EMRO or SCD World; otherwise it's not EM). Your comment is similar to my point about Dr. Higa's [translated] claim that EM has "nuclear energy" (or something very similar).

Dr. Higa's bullshit comes from no traditional school of agriculture or medicine, it is mumbo-jumbo made up out of confusion or deception. I am a believer in chi and traditional chinese medicine, but this is just stupid.

BTW, the EM Mother Culture from SCD World is superior to that of EMRO, in my opinion, and the opinion of other people I trust. Vinny Pinto was consulted by SCD World...

I got it from EM AMERICA. good? bad? works for bokashi but that is not saying much.

Well, worms usually live/stay in the top 3 inches of bedding. How deep is your bedding/food? Have your read the great book "Worms Eat My Garbage"? You can get it from any local library. It's good.

Have read similar, can only say that the worms live throughout the worm bin bag, but do as you say in a plastic bin. perhaps it is the breathable nature of the design. The worms are always 3" from "the surface". I take from the bottom to add to the top, and there are often worm and cocoons down there.

Huh? Where did you read that? Could you please give me a link? Im pretty positive no microbes in EM (from either company) are known as primary lignin degraders. Fungi is most effective at degrading lignin but there are some species of bacteria that can also degrade lignin.

FWIW, current science states a majority of humus which ends up in finsihed compost is derived from the lignin within the pile...

I have read this quite a few places, but always from an EM dealer. Is it true? and does it only work if the material is fermented for long periods (is it the microorganisms directly or a waste product). EM america has a description. And also on page 6 of this hardly legible pdf from scd

It's a free world. But I would add molasses not h.fish. Molasses 'feeds' mainly bacteria, which is the 'food' of choice for most 'vermiculture' worms. OTOH, h.fish 'feeds' mostly fungi, along with some bacteria...

I don't "add" anything but waste products and bedding to my bin. When my plants get molasses, any left over goes in the bin. If I have leftover mixed hydrolysate I pour that in. Waste from my bokashi trash goes in as well, when it's doesn't get used on our drains. But that worm funnel is roaring, and can digest fast. the hard body bins get the normal rules and treatment. However I find the standard list of do's and don'ts is not great. Worms will eat meat no problem, but using it is problematic. Rather than say this, the literature claims worms "don't like it". They just need it to break down quite a bit first. I will see if bokashi meat works, a bit at a time. If I get rats forget it.

My environment is being ruined to get me "neptune's harvest" (smells like menhaden, which should be protected). I am not pouring it down the drain, and I am not going all the way outside to throw it on a garden that doesn't need it.

I want to say thanks for being a cool person. We got off on the wrong foot but I like where we are now.

Right back at you. Am enjoying this conversation and this tangent, and the other one about linguistic implications of putting science in the hands of laypeople.

 

[VerdantGreen]

can someone answer this question please

will i be able to see with the naked eye whether or not myco has successfully colonised my roots when i tip out the pot after harvesting?

thanks

V.

 

[otherwhitemeat]

As MJ wrote, it can harm 'good' and 'bad' microbes.

To control PM have your tried repeated applications of well made (and tested) ACT? Dr. Elaine Ingham states (believe) that it's the fungi from ACT which offer the most protection from PM (for example). Supposedly fungi can survive longer in the phyllosphere than bacteria (from ACT), according to Elaine (I think). More than a few people have told me that AEM has help prevent/stop PM...

GL

I was just using PM as an example. I am always surprised at Neem's ability to suppress fungus. We had blight real bad in these parts (I know, not really a fungus). I treated one tomato plant with Neem and it actually produced a few tomatoes before eventually succumbing.

I have used occasional Neem/Azamax drenches to kill fungus gnats. I have had a few bouts with them over the past few months as the soil I used to buy seemed to always have gnats.

I've noticed that the straight Azadirachtin (like Azamax) seems to have little to no effect on my plants, whereas the more broad spectrum Neem products (like Einstein oil for example) seem to slow my plants down a bit. Perhaps just anecdotal, but now that I've started feeding with guano teas, the recovery may happen a bit quicker. I just started using Myc in my soil and want to be careful to protect their population so I am hoping that I don't need this any more now that the winter is coming.

 

[VerdantGreen]

@ ALL

.....

(I also have a bunch of journal articles, re: the biology of composting, etc. I found many sources which back up my belief it's OK, and now normal to have peak heating into 170F. After all, it's mostly the bacteria genus Bacillus spp. which does most of the OM (Organic Matter) reduction during the compost process. The reason that is important to know, is the Bacillus spp. can/do from "endospores" if the temp in the pile gets too high. And some fungi also has similar methods to survive hostile conditions. Anyway, once the temp reaches the thermophilic stage (135F-155F) the Bacillus spp. endospores will 'germinate' (along with fungi), and they start the most important part of the hot composting process.


....

i would add that size is important if you want your compost heap to behave properly and cook nicely - the bigger the better but 1m cubed is about minimum.

V.

 

[ganja din]

can someone answer this question please

will i be able to see with the naked eye whether or not myco has successfully colonised my roots when i tip out the pot after harvesting?

thanks

V.

The best answer I know is: possibly. It all depends upon the infection % which generally allows for greater mycelium growth an 'outreach' from the rhizosphere. In that pic I post on page two you can see what it looks like with the naked eye, that is a real pic. If you can see mycelium (little white 'ropes') extending out from the roots there is a good chance they/it is AM fungi/us. For example, MicrobeMan mentioend he saw mycelium prodruding out of roots, that to me sounds like some type of AM fungi.

For now I think that is the most accurate answer. Unless you have a microscope...

 

[Microbeman]

Well I still did not read everything. I just do not have the time right now but here are a few comments.

b) "Using a Microscope to Study Mushrooms"
by Micheal Kuo
(most of this you know I'm sure, but maybe you'll find it interesting)
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/microscope.html

Thanks. I believe I wrote this person once asking why they thought 1000X oil was necessary but got no reply.

"The Microbial World: Mycorrhizas"
by Jim Deacon
Institute of Cell and Molecular Biology, The University of Edinburgh

I like Jim Deacon very much.

Yes. But it's not up to us, unless we starve the micro-herd. As MM eluded to, a plant can 'tell' microbes in the rhizosphere that it needs more of substance X (via. exudes in most cases). And the communication is two way, microbes can 'tell' the plant they need substance Y. Basically the micro-herd and plant tried to achieve homeostasis in the media and especially the rhizosphere (or would that be 'rhizostasis', or other?). Thus, 'they' can decide when, why and how much 'water soluble' inorganic minerals are needed and will/can be supplied (aka "microbial bio-fertilizers"). That is a very simplistic explanation but it's accurate enough I think. (MM, your thoughts? Corrections?)

Simplistic is where its at. That’s why there are people like us…to simplify. Homeostasis is correct. Microbial bio-fertilzers = nutrients provided through microbial loop

I don't know if you guys/gals realize how big of a step this is. One main limiting factor in the study of AM fungi is the general inability to do so in vitro. If this method turns out to be a viable option that would be very cool. I would love to germinate some spores and grow out some petri


Here is a link to the full text as HTML:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=123902


ANd here is a link to the full text as a PDF:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...2&blobtype=pdf

Yes this is interesting and needs exploration!!

I would like to mention that I could have written something inaccurate, or incorrect, but I don't think I did. When MM gets back I'm sure he will glance over this thread and let me know if I said something stupid (or at least I hope he would tell me ). BTW, were is tad?

Most things look in order but we must always realize the changes which take place in human knowledge through time. Tad is watching.

You will not find fruiting mycorrhizal fungi 'in the open'. But if you mean you put the seedlings next to tree roots and hope that fungi from the soil will 'infect' the tree it still won't happen. Fruiting mycorrhizal fungi are "ectomycorrhizal" fungi, not AM fungi. One can't do the work of the other.

I realize you know but to avoid confusion, it is ectomycorrhizal which ‘in our knowledge’ associates with trees but some of these fruiting mushrooms (even ectomycorrhizal species) grow in fields (puffballs, agaric species like various meadow mushrooms) and there are species which can grow in compost, wood chip or straw richly amended soil (the Garden Giant Stropharia - rugoso-annulata; Shaggy Mane [mmmm] -coprinus comatus; Garden Oyster - Hypsizygus ulmarius;
All available in kits from www.fungi.com
I'm unsure of the other species but know that Shaggy Mane is mycorrhizal to trees. If I have misread let me know.

Here is a picture of the association between mycorrhizae and an individual root-tip.....my biggest question is which species of mycorrhizae are the most effective at interacting with cannabis roots? most myco products have lots of different kinds of myco species, but which species has the best chance of being fully blossoming (as it were) within the soil?

I posted this previously:

New species, combinations, host associations and location records of fungi associated with hemp (Cannabis sativa)

JOHN M. McPARTLAND a1 and MARC A. CUBETA a2
a1 Vermont Alternative Medicine/AMRITA, 53 Washington Street, Middlebury, VT 05753, U.S.A.
a2 North Carolina State University, Department of Plant Pathology, Box 7616, Raleigh, NC 27695–7616, U.S.A.

Abstract

The following fungi species have been identified associated with Cannabis sativa

Micropeltopsis cannabis sp. nov. and Orbilia luteola (Roum.) comb. nov. are proposed. New Cannabis host associations include binucleate Rhizoctonia spp., Curvularia cymbopogonis, Sphaerotheca macularis, Glomus mosseae, and Pestalotiopsis sp. The geographic ranges of Pseudoperonspora cannabina, Septoria neocannabina and Fusarium graminearum are expanded


http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=41995

Follow Up Research by TJ Wilson; cursory

Micropeltopsis cannabis – Ascomycota phylum – pathogen; could not find more without extensive research

Orbilia luteola – Ascomycota phylum – could be beneficial – further research required

binucleate Rhizoctonia – Basidomycota so probably beneficial - appears to be an endophytic mycorrhizal type associated with orchids but some races are pathogens
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/89/11/1852

Curvularia cymbopogonis – Ascomycota phylum – described as pathogen – leaf spot

Sphaerotheca macularis – Ascomycota – otherwise known as powdery mildew – yuck

Glomus mosseae – Glomeramycota phylum – endophytic mycorrhizal – this is the main spore you want to inoculate roots for Cannabis plant species – ding ding ding!!

Pestalotiopsis sp. – is an endophytic fungi but apparently not micorrhizal – I found references to pathogenic function as well as benefit to the host plant – more research is required and I don’t have subscription authority to most journals

Pseudoperonospora cannabina – (correct spelling) – Oomycota phylum – almost always a pathogen – in this case downy mildew – yuck again

Septoria neocannabina – Ascomycota phylum – not a friend – causing yellow leaf spot

Fusarium graminearum – Ascomycota phylum – fusarium is a well known pathogen

Also Glomus intraradices forms associations with Cannabis so it gets a ding ding ding!

2) Re: Info on Luebke composting:
https://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=109

I’m a fan [and have Ingham bruises to prove it <GRIN>]

The biggest concern IMO, is that it does not contain Trichodarma spp.. The jury is still out on weather its wise or not to co-inoculate Trichoderma spp. spores with AM fungi spores. I am on the 'don't do it side',

I’m working on it but so far I’m also trending towards don’t do it.

Would I be out of place by asking this thread be place in the "Organic Soil Reference Library" sticky?

If it goes there it will be locked so it should be filtered for unecessary discussion first (e.g. should only contain relevant info)

If AM fungi is not effective for us.....then why are we talking about one specific fungi? I believe the the approach by the Lady could be termed as the ´Shotgun` approach which we all seem to follow.

My jury is still out. It may infect faster if used right in the rooting media. Gotta get rich enough to sit around doing experiments. Mr. Din; Time for a huge donation.

With new fungi being discovered every day, how are we to know which ones benefit the type of plant and environment that we grow in?

Stick with what we do know and with the species that thrive naturally in compost and soil. Keep your soil alive and the fungi will thrive.

1) Ferment in a container with a small (width) mouth. I ferment AEM in gallon jugs.

I use clear 2 litre pop bottles with labels removed for light permeation.

Place a aquarium heater in the AEM water mix. Make sure you don't get a kind with auto-shutoff at a certain temp. I use the cheapest ones from Walmart which are for upto 5 gallon tank. Place the heater in the water, with the same heater it will keep ~0.9 gallon of water at ~90F all the time. That is good. The microbes are "mesophelic", that is they prefer temps around 100-135F (there abouts). Thus by heating the water you are proving the LAB and PnSB and yeast, etc, the perfect temp, they will reproduce a lot faster.

I just use light inside a cooler as my source of heat (90 to 100F)

3) place a 60-100 watt light bulb (incandescent) about 5-10" from the gallon jug. Leave it on 24/7. This helps the PnSB reproduce, otherwise you will have a lot of LAB and yeast with fewer PnSB. The goal is 4-6k Kelvin at 900-1000 lux. (let me check my notes re: lux. But the specturn is correct)

Do you think incandescent is better than compact fluorescent? My incubator got too hot with incandescent and propping it open became a pain so I switched.

4) add a bit of hydrolyzed fish, this feeds the PnSB.

5) I like to use this ratio of EM Mother Culture:molasses:water = 1:0.8:16

For garden I use 1:1:18 but for ingestion 1.5:1:14 or the best for ingestion I use
pure grape juice:EM stock:molasses:water = 1:1:0.25:14
Loaded with antioxidants and microbes
For garden use one can get away with a 7 day fermentation but I ferment a minimum 45 days for ingestion by me and my dogs as a probiotic. I use regular grade EM stock for both and did not notice any great difference using the super EM or whatever it is called. For horticulture I like a pH of <3.4 and for ingestion <3.3. SCD may have a slightly superior product but both do not have as many species of PNSBs as several years ago.

6) To keep your mix anaerobic as you can pour a layer of mineral oil over the water, so it forms a layer of about 0.5-1 inch thick. This prevent gasses from entering the mix, but allows gasses to exit the mix. This step is important, imo, because I find it lowers the amount of 'yeast' buildup on the solution surface.

I’d like to try this before commenting.

7) When 'using' the AEM, buy a cheap air-hose, the kind for a aquarium air-pump, I think it's 1/4". Then siphon out the AEM (after a bit of mixing with the hose) into a container. Try to keep the down-end of the hose right against the bottom of the receiving container. Once the AEM starts to fill the container place the down-end of the hose under the AEM so less oxygen is mixed. (if you have ever siphoned gas from a car you know what to do )

8) usage: I like to use AEM at 1:20 to 1:50. Most people like to use AEM at 1:100, etc. I think MicrobeMan like to use AEM (when he rarely does) at 1:10, or less. (but don't quote me on that!)

I have used it at this rate with a foliar pathogen control special fermentation recipe (I think its posted on ATTRA) but I generally dilute it 1:250 for soil drenches. Most people actually use it at 1:500 to 1:1000. This makes it exceedingly cheap.

To control PM have your tried repeated applications of well made (and tested) ACT? Dr. Elaine Ingham states (believe) that it's the fungi from ACT which offer the most protection from PM (for example). Supposedly fungi can survive longer in the phyllosphere than bacteria (from ACT), according to Elaine (I think). More than a few people have told me that AEM has help prevent/stop PM...

Do you know where this Elaine info is? I usually have greater success controlling PM with a highly bacterial ACT but if I have a problem again I’m going to activate Trichoderma in a pail with molasses overnight and spray that.

The Canadian version of compost fleece is called "Composttex", and it's good stuff!

Where can it be had in Canada?

But still, about the only people I have found who know really well what's up with EM is our very own MicrobeMan and his buddies Vinny Pinto and Steve Diver. Those three gentleman are considered by many, (esp. Mr. Pinto) as experts in the field. Vinny has been to Japan to train with Dr. Higa's students (unless I'm mistaken, MM?). The owner of SCD World also used to work for/study under Dr. Higa in Japan.

I am no EM expert but thanks for the ego boost and although I call Steve a good friend, I’ve not formed a similar bond with Vinny. Vinny did not train with Higa but Matthew did. The Higa backed EM company does not smile upon Matthew and SCD.

Huh? Where did you read that? Could you please give me a link? Im pretty positive no microbes in EM (from either company) are known as primary lignin degraders. Fungi is most effective at degrading lignin but there are some species of bacteria that can also degrade lignin.

I also have not heard this. I’ll look at the SCD site. That PDF file is too large

 

[ganja din]

i would add that size is important if you want your compost heap to behave properly and cook nicely - the bigger the better but 1m cubed is about minimum.

V.

Good point. Thanks.

One thing I would like to mention is the idea of a yard cubed. Most people I speak with think the compost has to fill the complete cubic yard. That is the most common misconception I seem to run across. I made a little pic for members here who may be a bit confused, i'll attach it at the bottom. I try to explin to most people that a compost pile should look like an upsdie down ice cream cone (just that not great of an angle). That a pile needs to be sloped, especially if using a compost fleece so it can funnel the water away from the compost.

Like you said a pile must be at least 3' high. However, as many people have trouble getting the pile hot enough, I like to suggest 4' high. And not over 6' because it can get too hot and become anaerobic in the coir.

I am going to start composting with windrows next summer (4-5' W x 3-4' H x >20 L), I hope to buy a 'walk behind' Luebke Compost Turner by then.

For now my piles are 3.5' W x 4' H x 3.5' L and I make sure the bulk density (eg. pounds per cubic yard) is 700-900 pounds. About 800 lb/yd^3 is ideal with 50-55% moisture content. I turn the pile every two days during the peak heating phase and resulting thermophilic phase. During maturation I only turn every 4-5 days. When I turn a pile it is from one location to a different location. So every two days I am moving ~1,500-2,000 pounds of compost by hand with a pitch fork.

It's important for me to use a compost fleece because the core reaches 170F and otherwise the core will dry out in a day (from moisture evaporation). If the coir is too dry the OM (Organic Matter) can burn. I love compost fleece, haha.



thanks again

 

[ganja din]

Hey MM,

Nice response, thanks for the references, etc I have actually already considered a big donation for you...

I prefer CFL to incandescent, that's a typo. I agree about the longer ferment for ingestion. But I'm curious of your motivations to do so? A week or so after the initial pH drop reaches <3.3 it should be 'safe' to drink, same thing with the kombucha I ferment. My main reason for a longer ferment is it allows for more enzyme production, along with other organic chemicals which are good for humans to ingest. Now I have a microscope I can check the activity of microbes after X days of fermenting. I have always used AEM for horticulture within two weeks of starting to ensure they are active.

When you do long brews are you adding more molasses a few weeks in? I forget what kind of ferment Vinny calls that, do you know? I like your use of grape juice, do you juice them in a juicer or blender and filter?

That reminds me of a funny story when I was a raw food vegan: I made a big ol' glass of red grape juice with my juicer and pounded it. Well that was a BAD idea, haha, I got really light headed and ill, I threw up and couldn't stand up, it felt like the first (and last) time I tried chewing tobacco.

The reason I like SCD-World is as you say, they have like one more PnSB species than EMRO. But, SCD-World also has many Bacillus spp., I am not sure if EMRO-USA does. The reason I mention this is I have Japanese journal articles (in English) with findings that the inclusion of Bacillus spp., makes a 'better' EM mother culture. I can email you the paper (once I find it in my computer ).

I too think it should be possible to use AM fungi when growing cannabis if low amounts of P inputs are used (not inputs with considerable available P). I am going to try colloidal phosphate and limited hydrolyzed fish. I am going to run trial as such. I thought I mentioned that to you? Maybe not. I want to carry about a few trials and try to get some kind of baseline for N, P and K with organics. Hopefully, like you seemed to experience, cannabis can grow well with low P inputs. If so then AM fungi might be very useful if live propagules are used. I am very open minded in this regard.

I like your idea of filtering out the non-relevant posts before this is sticky, if it get sticky. But maybe it wont get locked if it's under "Organic Soil Reference Library"?

I'm pretty sure SCD-World suggestion is 1:1000 for most horticulture and <1:500 for most agriculture, can anyone out there correct me?

I will find the info from Elaine, re: fungi in phyllosphere. I thought it was discussed on the Yahoo! group? Regardless, if my memory serves, the claim is fungi can survive a few hours to a day(s) longer than bacteria, which are claimed to go dormant/die after a few hours to a day.

I'm not sure where you can get the fleece in Canada. Google for "composttex", or call Steven, he's in Vermont and I'm sure he can tell you.

Re: lignin and EM:
I haven't looked into it any further yet, but I'm almost positive none of the microbes are primary lignin degraders. Though Bacillus spp. might have some mode of action. As far as I understand, most lignin degradation happens during the end of the thermophilic stage and throughout the maturation stage, mostly by fungi as far as I understand. I have read lgnin is the source for most humus (or humic acid?) which ends up in compost.


All the best

 

[Microbeman]

I mistakenly thought the threads in the reference were locked.

 

[cellardweller]

tagged for reference..thanks for sharing..

 

[ganja din]

NP Glad you found the info useful.

 

[oz.e.bob]

im in, love it