CNS17 New Coco Formula

[one Q]

Lucas and Head using grow and ripe...

Lucas and Head using grow and ripe...

complete edit. I will say that Botanicare rep gave me numbers way higher than canna stats.
Rep gave me 205 153 294
Cstats gave me 198 29 110 This is @25ml/g of GROW

But I ran the numbers on the bottle through Cstats and came up with this...
10/10ml/gal grow/ripe = 100 70 132 This looks just like H3ad/REZ coco numbers
30ml/gal ripe only= 79 173 263 This looks close enough to REZ add KB (91 152 283)

Just throwing that out there...

Peace.

 

[one Q]

bump just to check my correction

 

[dannyboi619]

I've been using this line for about 2 years or so, maybe a little longer.with the soil cns forluma I also use liquid karma,silica blast,fulvic acid,dr hornbys big bud and overdrive at different times as well as aounts, and love this shit. For the price you cant beat Commercial Nutrient System 17 but then again I havent tried EVERYTHING on the market. But I am a true believer in this stuff once its dialed in at the right amounts.

 

[Coco4Coco]

Any one use the new CSN17 Ripe... which has a lower N level for
the last 4 weeks of Bloom....?

 

[dongle69]

Any one use the new CSN17 Ripe...

Yes, just finishing up a run with CNS17 coco formula grow/bloom/ripe.
Seems to work well!

 

[3thirteen]

dongle how much ripe did you use? did you do the 13/13 mix or just ripe? at what week did you start to use ripe?

 

[dongle69]

dongle how much ripe did you use? did you do the 13/13 mix or just ripe? at what week did you start to use ripe?

I switched from Bloom to Ripe around week 5.
I don't do reservoir changes, so I was adding it to reservoirs that had CNS17 Bloom in them.
I just added it as I added water back, until I got 2.2 ec.
Week 7 I went down to 2 ec and then around week 8 (of 9) I just topped off with plain water until the end.

 

[3thirteen]

Thanks for the info. is this your first round with ripe? how do you like it? so far i think its great.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I switched from Bloom to Ripe around week 5.
I don't do reservoir changes, so I was adding it to reservoirs that had CNS17 Bloom in them.
I just added it as I added water back, until I got 2.2 ec.
Week 7 I went down to 2 ec and then around week 8 (of 9) I just topped off with plain water until the end.

I would be curious to know if you can notice any taste difference? I am assuming this would be considerably less N than you normally use for the last 4 weeks I do realize it is entirely subjective but I value your opinion.

Also curious if you think it affected yield one way or the other?

I am seriously thinking of trying a grow formula all of the way through stretch then switching to ripe and ending with a flush...but not if taste isn't going to improve or yield is going to drop significantly.

 

[dongle69]

Revisiting this description that Dee9 brought up:

Due to the molecular make up of CNS17, on dilution with water the organic structures hydrolyze to provide an energy source for beneficial microbes in solution.

Botanicare told me over the phone that CNS17 has humic/fulvic in it, but I'm thinking there is no way in hell it is in there, since it is clear when mixed in the reservoir.
I put contact into Suntec, the original producers of CNS17 (they call it Matrix) to find out the real scoop.
http://www.suntec.co.nz/hydroponics.htm
I'll report back my findings...

 

[dongle69]

OK, here is the scoop from the horse's mouth:

What you speak of is referring to the proprietary polysaccharide solution we use as a binding agent.
The binding agent is a carb which once diluted in water acts as a sugar or food source for microbes.
It's as simple as that.
You must however provide the beneficial microbes...

 

[SpasticGramps]

I would be curious to know if you can notice any taste difference? I am assuming this would be considerably less N than you normally use for the last 4 weeks I do realize it is entirely subjective but I value your opinion.

Also curious if you think it affected yield one way or the other?

I am seriously thinking of trying a grow formula all of the way through stretch then switching to ripe and ending with a flush...but not if taste isn't going to improve or yield is going to drop significantly.

I was wondering about the taste too. From what I understand you aren't supposed to flush Coco with plain RO water. From what Dongle says it's a matter of not overfeeding the entire process and then lowering the nutes at the end that negates the need for a full on flush. Feeding a balanced diet throughout so to speak. I can't see anyone with that expertise pumping out nutrient tasting buds that don't burn right. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth Dongle, but this is how I understand it. I haven't starting playing with my two new bags of Coco yet.

 

[dongle69]

I would be curious to know if you can notice any taste difference? I am assuming this would be considerably less N than you normally use for the last 4 weeks I do realize it is entirely subjective but I value your opinion.

Also curious if you think it affected yield one way or the other?

I am seriously thinking of trying a grow formula all of the way through stretch then switching to ripe and ending with a flush...but not if taste isn't going to improve or yield is going to drop significantly.

I can't say I noticed any taste or yield difference, which I think is a good thing, since all the stuff I have been using provides good taste and yield.
It is hard to say now, though, because I didn't keep the variables the same...
I heard a lot of people are doing what you are thinking of, using Grow then straight to Ripe.
I haven't tried that myself but it seems like a good plan in theory!
I do like to feed my stretch with grow nutrients, though.

I was wondering about the taste too. From what I understand you aren't supposed to flush Coco with plain RO water. From what Dongle says it's a matter of not overfeeding the entire process and then lowering the nutes at the end that negates the need for a full on flush. Feeding a balanced diet throughout so to speak. I can't see anyone with that expertise pumping out nutrient tasting buds that don't burn right. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth Dongle, but this is how I understand it. I haven't starting playing with my two new bags of Coco yet.

I think a flush of plain water is OK at the end, but flushing with plain water before then screws up the cation exchange of the coco.

 

[Proteus]

funny that we are trying to get a "lucas like" recipie, or continually comparing it to lucas.


why reinvent the wheel?

Floranova bloom, 8-10ml/gal
clone, veg, bloom, ripe, one bottle, one formula.

They don't make it easier than that guys....

 

[dongle69]

The point of this stuff is to get away from Lucas, which is not necessarily ideal for coco.
I'm not saying Lucas doesn't work for coco, it just isn't dialed in.
Lucas also does not account for lowering nitrogen in the final weeks of flowering, which many prefer to do.
You can easily achieve that with a one part nutrient like CNS17 Ripe.
I was merely stating that you could achieve Lucas-like numbers for those that run multiple substrates, or for people that are interested a nutrient that is easier than FloraNova to shake and mix.
For me, an explicit grow nutrient works better than Lucas formula for veg.
For me, Lucas formula has too much phosphorus when used as a constant.
For me Lucas has too much nitrogen for mid-late flower.
No wheel is being reinvented, just improved upon.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Yep...Lucas has been a few years ago and everything can be improved on with time and research/effort. In no way is that a knock on Lucas, I have total respect for the man.

But even Lucas suggested "feeding the stretch" with higher N...in his case I believe he used the GH 3 part veg formula. I have personally seen this (well I used MaxiGrow) work very well. I used the Grow to fill the first reservoir going into flower and then simply topped off with a bloom formula. Yields definitely went up compared to starting with the bloom formula and the plants stayed healthier.

The drawback to this is that the plants are going to recieve more N throughout their life than the original no flush Lucas formula. New evidence seems to suggest that this can be countered by lowering the N once the buds have set either by switching to a ripening formula (which typically contains some N albeit in pretty low amounts) or completely cutting the N ala H3ad.

The final piece is whether or not a final water only flush is the way to go or not. I do not have a definite opinion on that one yet...there are people on both sides of the debate I respect...just gonna have to try it both ways and see which works for me.

My next table starts up in a couple of weeks. I am going with the Grow/Bloom/Ripe combo since the CNS17 Bloom seems to have ample N while the Grow might give me more N over the life of the crop than I really want...although eventually curiosity will get the best of me and I will be compelled to try the Grow/Ripe deal

Gotta say that polysaccharide thing concerns me just a little. That does not sound like a true carbohydrate, sounds more like a man made chemical copy of a carb...and somehow man made food always seems to be bad for people. Then again, who knows what is actually in any of the nute formulas.

 

[*mistress*]

funny that we are trying to get a "lucas like" recipie, or continually comparing it to lucas.


why reinvent the wheel?

Floranova bloom, 8-10ml/gal
clone, veg, bloom, ripe, one bottle, one formula.

They don't make it easier than that guys....

the fnb for veg is ok, but cheapo alaska fish works just as good if not better... want n-dominant fert for veg, generally... while can work thru out entire cycle, veg plants here get lots more n than 4%... they often get 20-20-20 peters, along w/ 5-1-1 alaska...

high potash (1-0-3.5) is normally used to control growth for a short period after planting...

high nitrogen (1-0-1) is used to maintain adequate vigor...

it may be beneficial to keep n @ or higher than k & p... if desire greater vegetative growth...
really has nothing to do w/ lucas' formula, just that higher n for veg delivers element that contributes to greater veg rates...

enjoy your garden!

 

[max_well]

I switched from Bloom to Ripe around week 5.
I don't do reservoir changes, so I was adding it to reservoirs that had CNS17 Bloom in them.
I just added it as I added water back, until I got 2.2 ec.
Week 7 I went down to 2 ec and then around week 8 (of 9) I just topped off with plain water until the end.

Hey Dongle
I've learned a lot from your 6000 watt room details, thanks for sharing your insights so frequently. Your logical approach is to be admired.

In your latest round with CNS17 did you switch to the bloom formula for top ups when you started flowering, or did you persist with the grow formula through stretch for topping up? And what kind of EC values did you typically use for veg into flower ? I know you use good quality tap water, but if using you were using RO water in your ebb and flow setup, do you think calmag supplement would be helpful for this line of nutes?
cheers
Max

 

[dongle69]

Hey Dongle
I've learned a lot from your 6000 watt room details, thanks for sharing your insights so frequently. Your logical approach is to be admired.

Thanks!

In your latest round with CNS17 did you switch to the bloom formula for top ups when you started flowering, or did you persist with the grow formula through stretch for topping up?

I used the grow formula through the first 1.5 weeks of flower then topped off with the bloom formula.

And what kind of EC values did you typically use for veg into flower?

Ec levels started at 1.5 in veg and peaked at 2.2 in flower.

I know you use good quality tap water, but if using you were using RO water in your ebb and flow setup, do you think calmag supplement would be helpful for this line of nutes?

Calmag should not be needed with these nutrients.
They have plenty, assuming your ph levels are in the proper range.

 

[Seed Buyer]

Dongle...you start clones off at 1.5ec? I start mine at 1.2 which I thought was high. Do you run 1.5 all the way through veg?