no more males?

[Mr. Greengenes]

I'm scared to enter such a contentious thread, but... The OP'er said, "the male does not give any specific traits that the female doesnt" This is not really true. Sidestepping the subject of genes that may or may not be sex specific, there's an important evolutionary parameter of sex in general that should be considered by serious breeders. That is; Nature tends to take more chances with, or 'throw the dice' with males than females, be they plants or humans. Remember the bell curve? Beethovens over here, Mansons over there. I'm certainly not against feminizing or selfing, but I do realize that variation is needed for selective pressure to result in improvement. Males provide wider variation than females.

 

[Mr. Stinky]

I'm scared to enter such a contentious thread, but... The OP'er said, "the male does not give any specific traits that the female doesnt" This is not really true. Sidestepping the subject of genes that may or may not be sex specific, there's an important evolutionary parameter of sex in general that should be considered by serious breeders. That is; Nature tends to take more chances with, or 'throw the dice' with males than females, be they plants or humans. Remember the bell curve? Beethovens over here, Mansons over there. I'm certainly not against feminizing or selfing, but I do realize that variation is needed for selective pressure to result in improvement. Males provide wider variation than females.

but what im suggesting is, if you have 50 plants in the room, all female, switch half and let them all fill with seed. keep only seed from the non switched ones if you are concerned with s1's (i wouldnt be). now you have 10,000+ female seeds with hundreds of different expressions. pretty diverse crowd im sure. females carry the same number of alleles, and should "father" as many genotypes as a real male, just with an X instead of a Y?

and im glad you decided to jump in my contentious thread i apologise for being so harsh. i want to have an intelligent conversation, not just a bashathon full of internet bullshit and pothead rumor

 

[SouthernGuerila]

i want to have an intelligent conversation, not just a bashathon full of internet bullshit and pothead rumor

Well damn just take all the fun out of it.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I'm scared to enter such a contentious thread,

Don't be, as far as I can see you're the one with the most experience in this thread.

there's an important evolutionary parameter of sex in general that should be considered by serious breeders. That is; Nature tends to take more chances with, or 'throw the dice' with males than females, be they plants or humans. Remember the bell curve? Beethovens over here, Mansons over there. I'm certainly not against feminizing or selfing, but I do realize that variation is needed for selective pressure to result in improvement. Males provide wider variation than females.

I'd like some evidence of this...sounds ridiculous to me.

 

[vicious bee]

You said you've never heard of anyone doing this well..
CH9 Seeds

The Ch9 are female seeds made this way:
" Due to a process of cubing 3 to 5 Feminised pollen and our Feminization process we could stabilized the Female gender of each plants. "Cubing involves a certain amount of random mating and is used to create desirable Female or mothers plants,Cubing is a way to generate mother plants in small populations".During our tests,thousands plants were tested under heavy stress,half burned,the plants never showed a hermaphrodite tendency,not even a single one. Pollination appear naturally , we do not use natural hermaphrodite plant and we do not sell pure self- pollinated seed plants (s1) . While cubing,and pollinating a sister plant We well kept a lot of hybrid vigor to the new multiple Female crosses ."
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=81027

The reports on the Haze are good.A cross between a phenos of Neville Haze x Red Colombian (Punta Roja) X 4 Female pollen (Ch9 jack33, Ch9 G bolt Flower, Haze g13, Kalimist)
To me this sounds like a great idea.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

GreenintheThumb, the evidence of greater variation in the male sex is everywhere you care to look. Nature doesn't take chances with ladies, but expendable males are another story. It's one of the best reasons to have two (or more) sexes. Eliminating males from the breeding program raises the risk of missing the Beethoven plant!

 

[GreenintheThumb]

That was incredibly vague Greengenes.

I do agree on one thing tho, I too believe the males are expendable. At least for our specific interests in this plant.

As far as the males increasing the chance of finding "the one." Well, I doubt it. If anything don't they confuse and complicate the crosses you've made? I mean, we can see the EXACT expression of the mom's genes in our environment. But the way a male's traits would look if expressed as in a female is much more of a mystery. And if you truly think there's greater variation in the males then wouldn't the smartest thing to do be to reverse them like Sam's doing? Reverse all the males in your cherry line (sorry can't remember its name) and see if you find a significantly larger number of keepers and a larger amount of variation.

 

[love?]

Mr. Greengenes: Did Beethoven have exceptionally accomplished daughters?

 

[Mr. Stinky]

That was incredibly vague Greengenes.

I do agree on one thing tho, I too believe the males are expendable. At least for our specific interests in this plant.

As far as the males increasing the chance of finding "the one." Well, I doubt it. If anything don't they confuse and complicate the crosses you've made? I mean, we can see the EXACT expression of the mom's genes in our environment. But the way a male's traits would look if expressed as in a female is much more of a mystery. And if you truly think there's greater variation in the males then wouldn't the smartest thing to do be to reverse them like Sam's doing? Reverse all the males in your cherry line (sorry can't remember its name) and see if you find a significantly larger number of keepers and a larger amount of variation.

its good to be loved


greengenes has cherry bomb. maui wowie f-28 haha
i fully agree there are hidden things in the males. where i differ is, i see zero evidence in any of my experiments, or in any of my books where there are exceptional characteristics in the males. the rules apply to both sexes. while the males do show more vigor on a regular basis, its not something that the female gets from him. its a virtue of the male. kinda like, if i had a daughter, she wouldn't inherit my hairy ass...its a male trait that comes with being a male. and since i really dont like hairy asses on my ladies anyway, i dont see what good the male is to us.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

No offense, but you guys need to read some books. How 'bout Origin of Species to start with?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Oh, well you convinced us now

If there's greater variation of positive traits in the males how is it not passed to the female progeny? And if it's not passed to the female progeny why should anyone give a shit about it? Maybe you should take your own advice, crack a biology book.

 

[Tom Hill]

A couple of recommendations-

Principles of Plant Breeding
By Robert Wayne Allard

Selection Methods in Plant Breeding
By Izak Bos, Peter D. S. Caligari

Statistical and Biometrical Techniques in Plant Breeding
By Jawahar R. Sharma

-T

 

[baan]

I am not a breeder by any means, I know little of plant genetics.

But males can be useful. You just have to find something to do with them that is useful, to you.
For example, I have a male mazar. I also have a bagseed sativa that is female. If I could get those two strains to combine, I would have some damned good smoke. Without picking up a pack of seeds for $25 or more.

So, for all those who have fine-tuned grow rooms or are pros or whatever, the male may be useless to you. Living in the middle of the woods and growing a few plants outside as a hobby, the male plant can have some use.

Just .02 from my unprofessional opinion

 

[Mr. Stinky]

baan, you are 100% right you are also not catching my point here. you have mazar and you have bagseed. my point is, you can use whichever method you choose to turn part or all of one of your good females to a male and pollinate your other plants. the resulting seeds will all be female crosses of the parents just as if you had used a male. the difference is, now you have all females to choose your next breeding stock from. the male provides us with nothing but more males. he makes it easy to make more seeds.

im not recommending this for everyone, especially a redneck out in the woods lookin to make a few beans for his own use. its a discussion in the theory of it.

 

[cork144]

Tell ya what...I got the space, I wanna try this. DO I use sound genes that have been stress proven already? force em chemically? I doing selection the old fashion way...lol. But I do go cuts of each pheno of a few strains...wouldnd mind sticking 10 or so in there. Self em all you are saying? so self one, and put it in the room with "moms"?
I dig tinkering,...this could be interesting.

good vibes, and thanks for putting up with my pre-smoke rudeness

if they cant be hermed by anything but chemicals, thats the ideal plant for a herm cross.

the same as a male would be judged by his daughters, so should both of the females (or one female if selfing) be judged on this very factor. Progency.

 

[whiskeytango420]

A couple of recommendations-

Principles of Plant Breeding
By Robert Wayne Allard

Selection Methods in Plant Breeding
By Izak Bos, Peter D. S. Caligari

Statistical and Biometrical Techniques in Plant Breeding
By Jawahar R. Sharma

-T

is where my thought process has always been...But I am open minded, gonna at least LOOK into these theories in here...

if they cant be hermed by anything but chemicals, thats the ideal plant for a herm cross.

the same as a male would be judged by his daughters, so should both of the females (or one female if selfing) be judged on this very factor. Progency.

So I would wanna use a female that has been stress tested to HELL and not hermed, then chemically herm it? Just askin to get an idea here...And then said female would be amongst different phenos, not a bunch of clones, as to provide more variety?
Wanna get a good grip on all this before I think about giving this ago...Contrary to being told I dont even know what a S1 is, I understand you wouldnt wanna use those, as they would be more like a seed version of a clone...yeah?

good vibes

 

[guineapig]

Mr. Greengenes: Did Beethoven have exceptionally accomplished daughters?

Beethoven's grand-niece Hermine (Minnie Van Beethoven) was an accomplished pianist.....

was she one of the top 5 musical geniuses of all time? no...

So are you just trying to increase your chances of finding a "sport" plant, i.e. a plant with exceptional characteristics? Or are you so frustrated with starting from seed and finding males that you are looking for a way for you to never ever see a male plant again? I guess i'm just confused....

I'll pick up those books Tom Hill.....thanks for the recommendation....

kind regards from guineapig

 

[hoosierdaddy]

WHisky, I am so glad to see that you have went to the open minded side of this argument.
I am but a dumb fuck, but I just about went into hyperdrive when I saw your post about this. It was full of statements that the internet rumor mill posts up ad infinitum.
Especially when you posted that males pass on important traits....I would have to have asked just how you knew this? Seems that other breeders, including the skunkman, have been pondering this for quite awhile now and not been able to provide clear statements on that issue. They admit to only speculation...so seeing you make a blatant blanket statement sort of fired me up.

But, it seems that you are actually absorbing the voices of reason. Good job.


Folks, just my opinion...but I get so fucking tired of folks who want to wax all elequint about the feminized seed topic, yet bring nothing to the table but other bullshit they read from others who have few actual facts, and fewer clues.
There is a very good reason that folks see hermies when they breed using a forced fem...the VERY SAME REASON they have hermies when breeding with a male and a female.

 

[kopite]

Selection Methods in Plant Breeding
By Izak Bos, Peter D. S. Caligari

for those interested in this book I have it as a pdf.... but its over 5meg so not sure I can get it posted here... I'll find the rapidshare link and post that up....

Kopite


http://rapidlibrary.com/download_fi...desc=Selection+Methods+in+Plant+Breeding+.pdf

 

[grimweeder]

i dont use males to breed only use females cos of space mainly i jus make fem beans an dont have any real hermie issues, hermies in fem seeds is jus down to wether the breeder has bothered to put the time in to fully test the females used( an i do)
making proper 100% viable female seeds is not as easy as a lot of you make out its not jus a case of hacking a hermied females pollen together like bish bash bosh, you need to grow the same plants under many conditions before you find ones that are worth actually breeding together which can be a lengthy process. etc etc same as using males can be.
i dont see wot all the fuss is about at the end of the day the cannabis plant is supposed to be able to self pollinate if really needed, so everyone saying its not natural needs to have a rethink cos it is kinda natural for a cannabis plant. its jus breeders are now able to utilise an exploit this trait to their advantage.
im all for femmed beans bred properly it means i dont need to double up on soil an pots an stuff to jus loose half to unwanted males. i mean thats why 99% of us grow weed is for the females. no one smokes males. however its obvious males are needed as not all plants are suitable for feminizing and mother nature wouldnt haver given the cannabis plant males if there wernt needed.
if you wanna breed for jus females then select a good pair of tested females an use chemicals to induce sex reversal you shouldnt use plants that have been reversed using natural techniques as the plants will be prone to hermie.
if you want diversity then choose a strain one that has a diverse genetic background would be good say a 3 or 4 way cross stress test it, if its good then take cuts an self one using chems an pollinate the other cut. you should get quit a good range of phenotypes representing the different genes that make up the plants whole genotype an 100% female no males or hermies.