indoor organic soil yield/ all others?

[maryjohn]

I'm going to look into it. I am not sure of my square footage but if I can do it with 150 w that is way better.

Outside - not even with cold frames? If you start them early inside then move them under the frame maybe? Not sure what your laws are like, I always did guerilla. You can't exactly hide a coldframe or a perfect row.

 

[happyhi]

Verdant, I notice most of your comments had to do with light. I have noticed the same thing outside. If you really want to get good yields, look to your light. All our arguments about soil seem trite compared to lighting.

Bravo, btw. Those are very impressive results. Im wondering if I should add a third bin to my setup, completely filled with soil instead of using pots. But I would lose some mobility. Moving from cfl is not an option. I just can't justify burning that much juice for recreation (not to the wife anyway).

sorry but can't agree with your light comment, soil is king, it is what makes it happen, without it all the light in world won't get you squat imo.
in the 70's the haze was grown in dimly lite greenhouses due to stealth
issues and produced what many feel is some of the finest ever produced
and became much of the breeding stock for the next 30 years of breeding.
peace,hh

 

[maryjohn]

Yeah, just like hot house tomatoes are the best around. So perfect looking!

If you want the best yields and quality you need full sun, regardless of the "many" who considered hothouse pot to be the beat around (in th 70's what were the indoor lights like? Greenhouses, by the way, are powered by the sun. They work because there is enough light and very little in the way of limiting events like high winds, low humidity, frost, and uv damage. Take the same plant, one inside one out, and you will notice a big difference in stretchiness. Outside plants are stronger, meaner, and able to process a greater amount of energy to make buds. That's a fact.

Plants can't grow in the dark, sir. And people use greenhouses as a compromise, not as an ideal. Light simply is THE limiting factor. Your statement is like saying a good road is more important than gasoline for covering long distances. The road can limit or stop you in your tracks, but if you run out of gas you are not going anywhere even on the autobahn.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i would say both are equally limiting really. a plant in a small container will not grow very big even with very good sunlight - and vica versa a plant in a big pot will suffer if it doesnt get good light.

greenhouses i (sort of) find just as limiting season wise because whilst they give plants protection from the elements you are still at the mercy of photoperiod and public enemy number 1 - mold - is probably more likely to occur in a greenhouse than outdoors due to the reduced ventilation and bigger diurnal temperature range(at least this is true in my cool temperate climate). I would say though that outdoor weed that has been able to ripen properly has a psycoactive dimension and potency that it's hard to replicate under lights. perhaps a uv tube or something might help when using hps?

V.

 

[maryjohn]

I hope you didn't take what I said to mean you can do just as well withouth roads. It's just gas is the energy that makes the car go. The road is that which allows it to go somewhere.

It's not a limiting factor alone. It is also the source of energy almost all life on the planet. Deepwater vents excluded.

On this forum we tend to give soil primacy, because our light sources are a given in each problem set. Light issues tend to be discussed elsewhere. It is a soil forum after all. But we should keep it in perspective.

You can't really say water, air, earth, warmth, or light can be put in order of which can be eliminated. Oh, wait, you can eliminate soil and still grow. Guess that's sort of killing my analogy. Never mind. Soil is less limiting than light. When someone finds an alternative to light, let me know.

 

[mrred]

hydro/coco plants will grow faster, but you can compensate with technique, i started organic for taste,less or zero chemicals(i hate chemical plants), going with sog rather than scrog to cut out veg time a even canopy is most important,

 

[maryjohn]

Im not sure I gather. To me fast growth is not desirable. I like thick leaves and short distance between nodes, and that takes time. Some of my houseplants go outside for the summer and I prune them back to undo any gangly spring growth.

I'm not saying soil is not important, just saying it's easy to overthink it and overestimate the value of your inputs. Since cannabis is so easy to grow, great results can reinforce that thinking.

 

[happyhi]

Yeah, just like hot house tomatoes are the best around. So perfect looking!

If you want the best yields and quality you need full sun, regardless of the "many" who considered hothouse pot to be the beat around (in th 70's what were the indoor lights like? Greenhouses, by the way, are powered by the sun. They work because there is enough light and very little in the way of limiting events like high winds, low humidity, frost, and uv damage. Take the same plant, one inside one out, and you will notice a big difference in stretchiness. Outside plants are stronger, meaner, and able to process a greater amount of energy to make buds. That's a fact.

Plants can't grow in the dark, sir. And people use greenhouses as a compromise, not as an ideal. Light simply is THE limiting factor. Your statement is like saying a good road is more important than gasoline for covering long distances. The road can limit or stop you in your tracks, but if you run out of gas you are not going anywhere even on the autobahn.

i responded to your comment about light being the key opposed to the medium. i was the guy growing the original haze in the 70's in very poor natural light. i don't remember saying you could grow in the dark. what i produced in the 70's continues to be the gold standard for sativa. genetics trump everything anyone can do, after that imo, the medium is king, after that we throw light at it. you can grow remarkably potent medicine with good genetics and a good medium with poor lighting, try growing something good with tons of light and a lousy medium, let me know how you do. i can't tell you how many runs i've seen of super dense, high yielding medicine that has poor potency.
your post did make me smile, so thanks for that. lecturing me about what plants do indoors and out brought a smile to my face, my first outdoor grow was so long ago i can't even remember it.
Light equals yield, yes i agree, but if i have to choose for me first is genetics, second
medium then light. I would rather have a wispy haze bud then super dense nuggets
of meza meza smoke. In conclusion, you are right, if you want large yields you need good light but without the other two, all the light in the world won't make for good herb.
peace/hh

 

[maryjohn]

That was an artful boast. But I'd say you are maybe a tad biased? In buds I don't care about compact growth when they are dried and in my bowl. I just like the plant to be the best it can be. I'm not a pot snob. Can't afford to be. I believe I am wrong, onsecind thought, about the whole deal, and you kinda pointed it out: genetics that is perhaps the strongest force.



Here is the thought experiment you basically proposed, tweaked by me:

we have a grow off, same genetics picked by a third party. You get to choose either the light or medium for your opponent and vice versa. If your opponent's plants die you lose. Results are compared for quality and yield and a score given.

How do you keep your opponent from winning? And how do you win.


Here is a chance to have a thoughtful discussion instead of making empty boasts. I, by the way, personally leaned over the tower of Pisa. There I said it. Seriously though, put me in my place. With reason. All bubble bursters welcome.

 

[mrred]

Im not sure I gather. To me fast growth is not desirable. I like thick leaves and short distance between nodes, and that takes time. Some of my houseplants go outside for the summer and I prune them back to undo any gangly spring growth.

I'm not saying soil is not important, just saying it's easy to overthink it and overestimate the value of your inputs. Since cannabis is so easy to grow, great results can reinforce that thinking.

the leafs on my hydro are so thick there almost mutant,more water = fatter leafs, internode distance is 90% if not 100% a combo of lighting and genetics

 

[maryjohn]

Dude you're making me look bad! I'm a committed soil guy, and I believe in the power of good soil.

I'm gonna get more rude pm's now.

 

[mosess187]

Sup people, well so far i'm using organic miracle grow which it feeds it self for up to 2 months...under around 260 watts of cfl's....i don't think i've heard anybody considering your vegging time which i think is a key element in the total outcome of one's yield! so if you want a great harvest in the end i think people should take this into consideration also...

 

[mrred]

that mg organic sucks, when i used it for seedliings and at the time of transplant i could see the words embossed in the soil at the bottom of the cup, it needs perlite for sure because it has none, maybe thats everyone problem, can i take back a open bag of soil? now i start in coco only then move to lc mix#1 with feed recipe #1, me and my plants love it, the only one who seems to likes the mg organic is the fungus gnats

 

[happyhi]

That was an artful boast. But I'd say you are maybe a tad biased? In buds I don't care about compact growth when they are dried and in my bowl. I just like the plant to be the best it can be. I'm not a pot snob. Can't afford to be. I believe I am wrong, onsecind thought, about the whole deal, and you kinda pointed it out: genetics that is perhaps the strongest force.



Here is the thought experiment you basically proposed, tweaked by me:

we have a grow off, same genetics picked by a third party. You get to choose either the light or medium for your opponent and vice versa. If your opponent's plants die you lose. Results are compared for quality and yield and a score given.

How do you keep your opponent from winning? And how do you win.


Here is a chance to have a thoughtful discussion instead of making empty boasts. I, by the way, personally leaned over the tower of Pisa. There I said it. Seriously though, put me in my place. With reason. All bubble bursters welcome.

MJ
Can you explain leaning over the Tower of Pisa for me, sorry i didn't get that one and am feeling left out!
Artful boast? compliment? not sure, but thanks. Not into fighting, too old for itjust interested in, as you put it thoughtful discussion.
my comments are a result of personal experience which goes back a long ways. I added the pics because that is what i grow and i'm proud of it.

My original reason for posting the thread is as follows:
Today's strains mature very quickly, many in 45 days now, that fact continues to provoke a number of questions for me one of which i tried to address when i originally posted the question.
1. If you have a biologically active medium that has plenty of food in the soil to convert to food for the plant can it do it as effectively or quickly as
say hydro, or synthetic nutes?
2. If a plant remains in the ground for 8 months does it develop properties that can't be replicated in 45, 50 or 60 days.
peace/hh

 

[feltonmuggs]

1. I believe so, in fact perhaps better. Organic does not leave behind salts and other build up, thus proving to me that soil is more effective than hydro. A firm root structure in quality soil can never compete with synthetic hydro in my opinion.

2. Yes. Certain characteristics come about through age.

Good vibes, FM

 

[happyhi]

FM,
i want to believe you are correct since doing it organically is more than about yields
or quality, it's just the right way to grow things in terms of the planet imo.

2. i really agree with you on this, which is why i am concentrated on longer flowering haze
plants, as i feel they develop a different medicinal quality.

peace/hh

 

[mrred]

how can you compete with the roots of dwc?

 

[JackTheGrower]

MJ
Can you explain leaning over the Tower of Pisa for me, sorry i didn't get that one and am feeling left out!
Artful boast? compliment? not sure, but thanks. Not into fighting, too old for itjust interested in, as you put it thoughtful discussion.
my comments are a result of personal experience which goes back a long ways. I added the pics because that is what i grow and i'm proud of it.

My original reason for posting the thread is as follows:
Today's strains mature very quickly, many in 45 days now, that fact continues to provoke a number of questions for me one of which i tried to address when i originally posted the question.
1. If you have a biologically active medium that has plenty of food in the soil to convert to food for the plant can it do it as effectively or quickly as
say hydro, or synthetic nutes?
2. If a plant remains in the ground for 8 months does it develop properties that can't be replicated in 45, 50 or 60 days.
peace/hh

There is a relationship between the biological elements, the soil materials and the plant roots.

The hydro people provide a swimming pool of ions where we in the soil are with the shower, so to speak.

So, like with fattening a goose,if we puree the food and feed with a funnel yes we get a really fat goose and quick. With Hydro and the pool of ready to uptake nutrients yes they get a big plant.
With soil also we get a big plant.

Production of pure poundage, under light bulbs, I would think the fat goose would win.

Under the sun? I think Organic soil would win..

About how fast a plant matures, that depends on the plant and the conditions it's grown in.

Under light bulbs I often have seen some of the buds ready while others can stand a few more days with even more that go much longer once they can get more light and plant resources. That's all a part of the Love in the Garden IMO..


Organic soil is the "Turtle" in the story of the "Turtle and the Hare."

It's a steady race.

As was said.. Light bulbs are a expensive way to grow this plant and it doesn't always do the best that can be done.
In the Sun.. Nothing beats that I read. I hope to know this next year..

 

[happyhi]

There is a relationship between the biological elements, the soil materials and the plant roots.

The hydro people provide a swimming pool of ions where we in the soil are with the shower, so to speak.

So, like with fattening a goose,if we puree the food and feed with a funnel yes we get a really fat goose and quick. With Hydro and the pool of ready to uptake nutrients yes they get a big plant.
With soil also we get a big plant.

Production of pure poundage, under light bulbs, I would think the fat goose would win.

Under the sun? I think Organic soil would win..

About how fast a plant matures, that depends on the plant and the conditions it's grown in.

Under light bulbs I often have seen some of the buds ready while others can stand a few more days with even more that go much longer once they can get more light and plant resources. That's all a part of the Love in the Garden IMO..


Organic soil is the "Turtle" in the story of the "Turtle and the Hare."

It's a steady race.

As was said.. Light bulbs are a expensive way to grow this plant and it doesn't always do the best that can be done.
In the Sun.. Nothing beats that I read. I hope to know this next year..

great reply and beautifully said. it puts the right perspective on it, and i agree
with the analogy about the goose. thanks

peace/hh

 

[maryjohn]

MJ
Can you explain leaning over the Tower of Pisa for me, sorry i didn't get that one and am feeling left out!
Artful boast? compliment? not sure, but thanks. Not into fighting, too old for itjust interested in, as you put it thoughtful discussion.
my comments are a result of personal experience which goes back a long ways. I added the pics because that is what i grow and i'm proud of it.

My original reason for posting the thread is as follows:
Today's strains mature very quickly, many in 45 days now, that fact continues to provoke a number of questions for me one of which i tried to address when i originally posted the question.
1. If you have a biologically active medium that has plenty of food in the soil to convert to food for the plant can it do it as effectively or quickly as
say hydro, or synthetic nutes?
2. If a plant remains in the ground for 8 months does it develop properties that can't be replicated in 45, 50 or 60 days.
peace/hh

Just like jail is full of innocents, this place is full of growing masters. Some are for real, some are bullshit. How to tell them apart?

the tower thing was meant to be demonstrative. No one can really do anything with somebody's past glories real or imagined. Ideas come from where they will, and good ones can be spotted like ripe fruit.

Not trying to fight either happy hi, and it turns out we agree more than you thought. You are describing terroir, which is the future for great pot if we can develop some decent traditions like the French have with wine. Some other factors I believe should be looked at are elevation, day/night temp difference, humidity, etc.

As for the boasting part, yes I was teasing. It seems many members don't take the time to discuss the point at hand, choosing instead to talk about some big operation they ran or how long they did this and that. I came to gardening through my love of food and wine, due to a job as a clerk back in school.

I have noticed some affectations in the mj world in imitation of wine degustation, only without the blow your mind accuracy and knowledge shown by wine guys. No doubt there are a few, but for the most part it's an echo chamber.

You could have skipped the credentials and questioning mine, and instead given that lucid response, with which I agree completely, and only add that whatever your medium, good light is required to bring any plant to its potential.

I have rarely had hydro pot that I liked, and I have had great fluffy buds this is true. Which makes us both wrong: genetics is king. But let's say what you say is true (I believe it is). Isn't outdoor soil just as superior as outdoor light? A real living soil is more than just the sum of its parts and can not be copied in a pot.

Hope to have another good one with you soon. We are thinking along the same lines, friend.


Jack: leave foie gras alone.