President Obama, it's very simple.

[DiscoBiscuit]

...However, I don't know.

At least we agree on one point. By the way, point your god finger at somebody else. I don't believe in god.

I deserve to be able buy insurance just like you. Nobody has to put up with your scrutiny to be worthy.

Also, you said "If the private sector won't do it (anything) then government has to." What makes you think that is true? Government is there to fulfill our every need if we can't find it elsewhere?[/quote]

Read previous statement. Rinse and repeat.

One of these days it will sink in. You'll see a pattern. One side wants to let it all out and the other has to reel it back in. It's a cycle, nothing less.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

BTW,



And replaces it with waste and inefficiency.

More talking points from the right. Let's see, I think the CBO report puts private administrative costs at 12% - government 4%. There's no profit in administrative waste. That 8% is nothing but....waste.

Analogies only work when they argue a particular side but I'll give it a shot anyway. The USPS is a non-profit government agency. They don't make a profit. Profit isn't passed on to the consumer.

The USPS is run by tax dollars. There are those that get a better return on the dollar depending on how much they use the USPS. The USPS has it's good aspects and bad ones. Any time you get a government entity this size you'll have people trying to exploit systemic weaknesses.

 

[ItsAllOver]

I pointed no "god fingers," no clue what you're talking about. It was apparent to me based on you previous posts that you didn't believe in god...

One of these days it will sink in. You'll see a pattern. One side wants to let it all out and the other has to reel it back in. It's a cycle, nothing less.

It's the left-right paradigm where you are losing grasp of these arguments. I view reality as objectively as I can using the massive amount of information available to me and make decisions on what's right and wrong. History has shown that the points I made in my posts about government's interaction with markets are true.

And according to the "Nobody has to put up with your scrutiny to be worthy."
Take your own advice.

Read a book or two to get a good grasp on some topics relating to econ and government (I'll give some suggestions if you're willing - and be willing to take some of yours), and stop reading the Obama forums talking points. This is about economics, not emotions and partisanship, k?

Oh and in relation to the CBO report, administrative costs are not the only place that "waste" can come from, so you're using incomplete data to make your points.
Also, saying that profit isn't passed onto the consumer shows a lack of economic education. Period. It may not be apparent to you, but profits allow businesses to either reinvest in themselves or other endeavors, leading to benefits for the consumer. Without pleasing the consumer, a business fails (unless gov't intervenes, lol), which is something many people seem to have lost sight of

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I am not a christian or god believer (yuck) either, so DB leave it alone. You are showing how narrow minded you are every time you introduce this into the discussion. I also often think that people that show what I consider to be ignorant viewpoints are probably religious. Comes with the territory, but it is irrelevant to this discussion.

I rest my case.

Go ahead and list your vessels of economic wisdom. There are two sides to each one, free capitalism vs regulated capitalism. You just have a problem with two words, republicans and democrats. They're the predominant players in the game. Has nothing to do with emotions or partisanship. It's about two opposing economic philosophies.

Politics is the evil in the game. It's the gray in the picture that obfuscates black and white issues we face on a day to day basis.

 

[ItsAllOver]

I still don't see how you "rest your case" on your claim from before. So if you could explain, maybe I'd understand the flaw in my logic and correct it. But we can leave this alone if you don't want to spend the time on it.

I'm saying that it is apparent that there are some uneducated economists talking about economic principles in here. There is history, there is fact, there are results of policies, both failed and successful. We need to learn from these things.
People are being manipulated by our gov't officials into thinking that bigger gov't is for their best interests because the politicians seek a stable job and power (both sides R & D) and there is another side that uses history and fact to guide decisions. That's about all there is to it. Sorry man. I'm not as easy of a target as you might have thought. This rep-dem game is a bunch of bullshit, and you're continuing to play it.

I am not afraid of people proving me wrong, are you?
Why do you seem so closed to criticism of your idea? I, and others too, have tried to debate you in a civil manner and you attack us for arrogance every time.
I have read all of your posts, thought about all of your stats quoted, and considered your philosophy. It doesn't mesh with reality, however, and I have tried to explain that. It is not all about opinion, we must take history into consideration here. Sorry

Nice NGB style Cab, BTW

 

[otherwhitemeat]

Analogies only work when they argue a particular side but I'll give it a shot anyway. The USPS is a non-profit government agency. They don't make a profit. Profit isn't passed on to the consumer.

The USPS is run by tax dollars. There are those that get a better return on the dollar depending on how much they use the USPS. The USPS has it's good aspects and bad ones. Any time you get a government entity this size you'll have people trying to exploit systemic weaknesses.

So, just checking to see if you came up with ANYTHING that's run better when it's run by the government. Just...one...thing.

 

[BLUNToPOTomuss]

Health insurance is NO more of a right than a drivers lisence!

Get a job that provides them! You cant?? YOU ARENT LOOKING HARD ENOUGH!!! or maybe you dont know the right way to carry yourself in an interview. JOBS WITH BENIES ARE OUT THERE!!! The weak and timid never put forth the effort to find them, and then ask for hand outs!!!

I have union backed health care with ZERO outta pocket for medical, vision and dental.

Why should I be FORCED into reduced coverage??

If you dont have healthcare........ ask yourself why!!!!! It's because YOU choose NOT to go out and get it.

HELL........ kaiser has a "poor" family plan for $130 a month!!!!

Stop drinking your starbucks and eating your Mcdonalds and buy yourself or your family some DAMN coverage.

OH on another note of this topic......

dont forget the FINES by the government if YOU refuse coverage! $950 for singles, and up to $2500 for families! Its gettig work through right now!!!

Obama healthcare= small business' bend over a get ready for a hard thick one up your ass!!!

Prediction.......... all the "hope and change" democrats had will be squashed when 2012 rolls around. Dems loose 33-50% of their seats in the house and senate.

It gunna be funny listening to the left cry at why you lost half you seats

I dont want to change my benifits!

Its unamerican to me to be forced into something I dont want!!!!!!!!

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

So, just checking to see if you came up with ANYTHING that's run better when it's run by the government. Just...one...thing.

It depends on which set of "facts" you subscribe to. My guess is you're with the camp that says, uh..."government bad."

Tell ya what, make a thread about the topic. Maybe I'll see ya round.

I'm not religious. I'm not arrogant. I happen to have an opinion on health care reform and will state it if I wish. If anybody has a problem with that then don't sign up for debate class.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Health insurance is NO more of a right than a drivers lisence!

Get a job that provides them! You cant?? YOU ARENT LOOKING HARD ENOUGH!!! or maybe you dont know the right way to carry yourself in an interview. JOBS WITH BENIES ARE OUT THERE!!! The weak and timid never put forth the effort to find them, and then ask for hand outs!!!

I have union backed health care with ZERO outta pocket for medical, vision and dental.

Why should I be FORCED into reduced coverage??

If you dont have healthcare........ ask yourself why!!!!! It's because YOU choose NOT to go out and get it.

HELL........ kaiser has a "poor" family plan for $130 a month!!!!

Stop drinking your starbucks and eating your Mcdonalds and buy yourself or your family some DAMN coverage.

OH on another note of this topic......

dont forget the FINES by the government if YOU refuse coverage! $950 for singles, and up to $2500 for families! Its gettig work through right now!!!

Obama healthcare= small business' bend over a get ready for a hard thick one up your ass!!!

Prediction.......... all the "hope and change" democrats had will be squashed when 2012 rolls around. Dems loose 33-50% of their seats in the house and senate.

It gunna be funny listening to the left cry at why you lost half you seats

I dont want to change my benifits!

Its unamerican to me to be forced into something I dont want!!!!!!!!

The above is a perfect example how opinion as fact blurs the issue. To all those who wish to keep the status quot, the above post doesn't help your cause.

 

[BLUNToPOTomuss]

To all the leftists out there who want bigger government, less freedoms, more social programs, more debt left to our childrens children........

DB is your man!!

where did I state my opinion as fact? The only thing I see in my OP is mentioning the fines? And that my friend IS being talked about.

Obama campaigned for no taxes to get this thing going, and now he sees its impossible to do without raising taxes. So "He" comes up with this great idea of fining those who refuse coverage....... (hence the small buss reference)

why do you think there is so much townhall yelling? Cause he is a liar and being called out on it.

OH wait Im sure you are going to come back with the......... those people were planted there to cause problems right?


If I get really sick once every 2 years and get hurt once every 5 and I make enough to pay outta pocket my medical bills, Why should I be forced to pay for coverage that I rarely use, and when I do I am wealthy enough to pay in full at time of treatment?

That is a SOCIALISTIC policy at its core. everyone is equal...........

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

To all the leftists out there who want bigger government, less freedoms, more social programs, more debt left to our childrens children........

DB is your man!!

spell social with capital letters, better yet, get it to blink. you'll hypnotize your audience easier.

where did I state my opinion as fact?

Well, let's hope your opinion has a basis on something.

The only thing I see in my OP is mentioning the fines? And that my friend IS being talked about.

Let me know if it gets into a single proposed bill and you'll have an argument. A proposal has to get into a bill before......if you're still curious, the rest is a few pages back.

Obama campaigned for no taxes to get this thing going, and now he sees its impossible to do without raising taxes. So "He" comes up with this great idea of fining those who refuse coverage....... (hence the small buss reference)

I watched the speech. Obama again pledged no taxes. Let's all see what's in the details before you throw up on the keyboard. I've seen nothing other than your reference as far as "his idea." There are 634 lawmakers weighing in on the process. If Bill Bob scratches his ass, it's not necessarily a presidential directive.

why do you think there is so much townhall yelling? Cause he is a liar and being called out on it.

Right now, I'll bet on the facts instead of your ability to predict the future. We can't sustain the system we have. The cost has doubled in the past ten years. No other industry has those numbers and this one isn't regulated. By the way, this ain't about Obama, it's about health insurance reform.

OH wait Im sure you are going to come back with the......... those people were planted there to cause problems right?

more declarations, you really should watch that.

If I get really sick once every 2 years and get hurt once every 5 and I make enough to pay outta pocket my medical bills, Why should I be forced to pay for coverage that I rarely use, and when I do I am wealthy enough to pay in full at time of treatment?

That is a SOCIALISTIC policy at its core. everyone is equal...........

Talk to a financial advisor. Talk to a doctor. Neither will advise what you just argued. Attempting to persuade you otherwise is far from me.

I just want to be able to buy health insurance. Nothing evil here.

 

[ItsAllOver]

BTW, I never said status quo, and I don't think anyone else here is necessarily saying status quo. I'm arguing against the current proposition that's going to be voted on, and I would rather see some insurance company regulation bills floating around. I always wonder when it's one bill being worked on. Having a single starting point to solve a complex problem is hard when there are various ways of tackling the problem.
BTW DB would you mind describing in any amount of detail what you think the problem is with the current state of affairs? I don't mean to sound simplistic, but I would rather have a better basis from which I can explain to you my position. I'd just like to get the conversation we're all having to be a little more orderly. Seems a little FFA right now.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If I'm quoted, I'll respond. That's orderly enough for me.

I would love to hear your thoughts, IAO. Mine are distributed over the last 7 pages. You're welcome to read if you wish.

 

[Pythagllio]

So you want some health insurance? Sure you can see the doctor. Right after you pee in the cup so we can make certain that you're not smoking any merryjewanna.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

^^^Good point.^^^ Thanks for bringing me back to the moment, Pythagllio.

On a lighter note. I do not want anyone to suffer any consequences of heath care reform. I'd just like to see an opportunity for 47 million of us to buy insurance.

 

[hardhat22]

No mention of pot in his speech.
Mandatory.
Grandma is screwed.
500 hundred billion in medicare cuts over 10 years.Hope herb is good for what ails her.It'll be all she can afford.
Mandatory
Peace
(mandatory)

 

[otherwhitemeat]

I do not want anyone to suffer any consequences of heath care reform. I'd just like to see an opportunity for 47 million of us to buy insurance.

And yet you simply can't see the forest for the trees. If 47 M of you worked harder, stayed in school, picked up a trade, or had some appreciable skillset--you'd have insurance too, and our economy would be better off for it.

Taking away from one group that worked very hard to give to another that didn't.

Still waiting for you to provide ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of something that the government does well? You really can't, can you? And yet, you think that gov't run healthcare is going to be a panacea. I've been asking this over several pages now, and you just keep dodging the question and trying to change the subject.

No wonder why nobody wants to give you a job with benefits, you're just not that bright.

 

[lysol]

If 47 M of you worked harder, stayed in school, picked up a trade, or had some appreciable skillset--you'd have insurance too, and our economy would be better off for it.

Yes, 100% of the unemployed simply choose to be unemployed, good argument

Taking away from one group that worked very hard to give to another that didn't.

umm WHAT? The public option is not a free option, its not raising taxes. If you don't like taxes you should be arguing our disproportional defense expenditure. It cost us more to kill 6 million Iraqis then it would have to save 6 million Americans.

Still waiting for you to provide ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of something that the government does well? You really can't, can you? And yet, you think that gov't run healthcare is going to be a panacea. I've been asking this over several pages now, and you just keep dodging the question and trying to change the subject.

Cash for clunkers
Laws for handicap access to buildings
parking enforcement
fire departments
post office
tax collection, lol

but if you think our government is no good thats a different argument, we need a government for roads, etc...

if private insurance is so good how come my insurance company calls me 2x a month asking me to switch to their services ( when im already a customer ), their efforts are really coordinated right? I ask them to take me off their list everytime and still I keep getting calls. That's what happens when you let profit be a sole motivator. If profit was a sole motivator it'd just be another tax, aka they would not provide a service in exchange, but luckily we have some regulations like HIPAA they have to follow.

"The Office for Civil Rights enforces the HIPAA Privacy Rule, which protects the privacy of individually identifiable health information, and the confidentiality provisions of the Patient Safety Rule, which protect identifiable information being used to analyze patient safety events and improve patient safety. "

Is this socialism or just a smart way to regulate a private industry?

No wonder why nobody wants to give you a job with benefits, you're just not that bright.

Hey asshole, my uncle worked for his own company for 50yrs and bought health care for both of his daughters, when she got cancer the out of pocket bills were going to be in the MILLIONs, he worked his whole life to purchase insurance and they tried to kill her. Fucking kill her.

Public option is just one component of reform,

I suppose you would like the government to stop regulating ATT, stop regulating your power company huh? The power company worked oh so hard to put up those power lines now they should be allowed to go around price gouging hospitals and schools?

- On one hand there's profit, that only has the sake of profits in mind,
- on the other hand there's socialism, which goes against what our country was founded on

If we just let profit rule all, everyone would be using AT&T, paying $5 a minute, they would own all the phone lines so there would be no competition.

Are you starting to see what I am arguing? I am not trying to take away your free market. I am saying the government should not give a corporate entity more rights then a human being. If the corporations profits are being made at the sacrifice of human life, we need REGULATION. A public option is merely one component of a possible regulation.

Other regulations include

limits on out of pocket expenses
limits on them dropping coverage
etc...

Do you support these?

I am a little confused as to if we are debating reform or if we are debating the public option. Reminds me of the people on here who want total anarchy just because cops take their weed, if you did that you'd have a more evil entity come in and take your weed. Replace weed with health care in that metaphor. Basically I am proposing that in a state of total de-regulation you would have a corporate monopoly thug coming in in it's place pushing around human life.

After you took the time to learn a skill, learn to write a resume, do all these interviews, and get a job with bennies, don't you at least want some assurance that the insurance you purchased is backed by someone other than the 19yr old kid down the block who decided to start his own company?

I suggest you learn a few things about the way the world actually works
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FA50FBC214A6CE87&search_query=the+corporation

Look at it this way, under the current laws an insurance company can patent a cure to a disease, that is socialism my friend, except now instead of the government being in control its a private entity that does not have to uphold your constitutional rights.

Living organisms may currently be patented except for a full human being. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXNvytpgZ7M&feature=PlayList&p=FA50FBC214A6CE87&index=15

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

i dunno, i think the system is fine in my case, ive had insurance all my life through military/companies i worked for. never even thought about it.

when my kids were in elementary school in cali, and with all the gang bangin, and gunshots at night, i decided to move my kids to the country. Colorado, western slope.

not much happenin here, especially in the electronic warfare scene. so i went from 22Hr 15 yrs ago to 5.50 irrigatin fields, no insurance, not to many jobs here have insurance. and no way i could or can afford to pay my own.

so recently had some medical problems, ambulance ride, hospital stay in 2 hospitals, flight for life to denver, and in the end bills that could choke a horse.

all were told up front i didnt have insurance, they still did everything in there power to keep me alive, and im still alive and doin great.

the denver hospital chalked it all up to charity, 68K wiped off my consience, flight for life the same as well, 25 k wiped clean.

now to get any other help, i needed to fill out paper work that would gag a horse, even a humanitary app for the VA which was approved. i have indigent card now, which actually is a type of insurance, as i went to get a 3 month follow up cat scan, which all is good, and they accepted the card and all i had to pay was 15 bucks for a 3k procedure.

im left with 11K debt to the docs who helped me, much better then 100k, and i got the best care in Colorado that you can get.

ive heard horror stories about people that cant get care, i dont believe thats the case, you just have to get off your ass, and find out what it takes to get help.

i really dont think we need the gov to run are medical care, but do think the system needs some tweakin, along the lines of malpractice suits. docs are practicin medicine, yes we are dealin with human life, i dont believe docs are negligent, i see the insurance companies causin the problems.

the costs are outta line, and insurance premiums are at the root.

CBF

 

[ColBatGuano]

Still waiting for you to provide ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of something that the government does well?

I can provide several:

The government regulates the fire suppression organizations which saved my friend's home in the foothills of the Verdugo Mountains outside Los Angeles last week. The same government provided a shelter for displaced people (and animals) until it was safe for them to return. The government will provide funds for the State of California to regroup its firefighting apparatus afterwards.

When my grandparents were young people living in New England, it was customary for multiple fire "companies" to operate in an area. People were expected to pay a tribute to them in exchange for a "seal" they could post on their front door. If a company showed-up to fight your kitchen fire, but you paid for a seal from a competing company, they could--and often would--leave your house to burn down. The government put an end to this sort of nonsense.

The government regulates the schools where my niece and nephews go to learn things--for free. The government provided me with grant and loan assistance to go to a university. Without that, I may have never been able to have a job with benefits. It also paid to build and run that university.

The government makes it illegal for the people who fly the planes in which I travel to be drunk, or otherwise intoxicated while operating the plane. They also have to be fit, and have good eyesight. The government also does its best to regulate the safety protocols of those planes. Not to mention school bus drivers, train operators, etc.

Lastly, the government funded, and provided the facilitation for the very technology which I am currently using to converse with all of you. The internet would have taken a lot longer to create if it weren't for government action. You remember when Al Gore mentioned he was responsible for the creating the internet? Well, he actually does deserve a lot of credit--as a sitting junior Senator from Tennessee, he co-sponsored the bill which funded DARPA's networking research.

It is simply wrong that the government does nothing better than a free market. Free markets see elderly people dying in their overheated homes because Enron executives thought it was okay to black-out Southern California to save a buck. Regulation is a must--human nature demands it. If you don't agree, then you aren't familiar with history.