President Obama, it's very simple.

[Hydro-Soil]

What's asinine is folks with health insurance not wanting 50 million Americans to have coverage like they do.

I don't care what anyone 'believes' about this, the reality is that there isn't any program our 'leaders' can put together that's going to give healthcare to everyone. I've already received 'Free' healthcare in this wonderful country and giving that crappy quality of care to everyone is NOT going to improve anyone's health.

The issue is that our out of control healthcare industry isn't the problem.... it's only a symptom of the problem. You can throw money and legislature at healthcare until you've bankrupted the planet and everyone STILL isn't going to get decent healthcare and most people won't get above 'shitty'.

Stop the healthcare bill and put those resources toward programs that promote Family, ETHICS, Empowerment and Education.... eventually we won't have this huge mess anymore.

Educated and informed people make great decisions. This country is lacking in both these days.

 

[danut]

The issue is that our out of control healthcare industry isn't the problem.... it's only a symptom of the problem. You can throw money and legislature at healthcare until you've bankrupted the planet and everyone STILL isn't going to get decent healthcare and most people won't get above 'shitty'.

I admit that I'm one of those that are covered by health care.

"Out of control" meaning costs are going through the roof.

Marijuana being legal would lower health care costs.

Government taking control of anything doesn't seem to lower costs. Seems like a sure fire way to make costs go up.

What's being debated is how to properly write trillions of dollars worth of checks to doctors, hospitals and drug companies.

This seems to be the first opportunity for the mmj community to offer to tip the scales. I believe that mmj in the bill just may do something to offset the greed already built in to the proposal. And I believe it would provide President Obama more political gain than loss.

 

[danut]

Sorry, but I have to point out here how lame that statement was.

Yes, if there's a federal medical marijuana bill that will cause more problems than it will solve I'm gonna fight it. Nobody said they would oppose it because it was federal or something.



The fight is against federal healthcare. It's asinine and it won't work. The problem is that the people that will ultimately vote on this pile of crap are so removed from the reality of the situation that they haven't a clue as to the logical vote.

Didn't mean to come of snippy ..

It was just a good reminder to me that not everyone would be swayed by including mmj.

I figure that some would swing against the bill.
some would be unchanged.
some would shift to the support side if that's what it would take to get the fed to budge on mmj for real.

And again .. I'm not saying it would be a good or bad thing. Just that I believe it would make a difference in passing or not.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I don't care what anyone 'believes' about this, the reality is that there isn't any program our 'leaders' can put together that's going to give healthcare to everyone.

Red herring. Single payer never made it past committee in the House and the Senate hasn't got their act together as they're still in the gang of six crap. The house bill proposes everyone be able to purchase health insurance, just like you're able to do. No give aways. No matter how much you hear this you'll ignore because it's a talking point. We'll still have folks that don't buy insurance and go to the emergency room just like they do now. There will just be alot less. The others will get health care instead of only disease care. The public option proposes choice. Choice means you can keep what you have already. You don't like the thoughts of folks pulling outta your pool for the public option because it'll make you're insurance higher. Sorry man, when the greedy get too greedy, something has to get them back in line with everybody else. That's the way it is. That's the way it's gonna be.

I've already received 'Free' healthcare in this wonderful country and giving that crappy quality of care to everyone is NOT going to improve anyone's health.

More bogeyman free talk. Heath care reform is about being able to afford good health insurance. You know this but won't admit it. You really ought to reconsider telling 50 million they're not worthy of the opportunity to purchase health insurance. Makes it sound like you don't care if they suffer. What happened to your ability to understand that such important things don't depend on your opinion, thank jeebus.

The issue is that our out of control healthcare industry isn't the problem.... it's only a symptom of the problem. You can throw money and legislature at healthcare until you've bankrupted the planet and everyone STILL isn't going to get decent healthcare and most people won't get above 'shitty'.

It's a symptom of no controls over the rising costs and record profits of the industry. They are the wolves in the chicken house. There are 6 lobbyists per lawmaker in the health care industry alone. All current legislation is hand picked by the industry to make it easier to make money. This raises the price for everybody and disqualifies 14000 people every day. You can't name a single solitary industry that hasn't blown itself up when deregulated. Go ahead, name one. Oh yeah, Reagan made air traffic controllers federal employees so they couldn't strike, all in the name of chasing the dollar. This new form of regulation is big brother at it's finest, do like I say or you're fired. One of the worst air systems in the world today.

Stop the healthcare bill and put those resources toward programs that promote Family, ETHICS, Empowerment and Education.... eventually we won't have this huge mess anymore.

Educated and informed people make great decisions. This country is lacking in both these days.

Your educated and informed opinion sounds like conservative taking points with absolutely not a single fact to back up what you say you really believe. The truth? It's all about wealth redistribution. You can't stand the fact your taxes don't come back to you 100%. It's because you don't recognize anything but a dollar in or out of your hand as a sign of bad times or prosperity.

I'm glad meaningful health care reform will pass this time around. This is the type of legislation that helps our society deal with the massive problems a huge population generates. Problems that can cripple our very existence. I'm also glad you'll be along for the ride because you'll be better off because of it both medically and financially. Your politics however is getting left behind. More progressive lawmakers means more progressive laws. Majority rule, it's the law of the land. Freedom is relative to the laws on the books. You lost more freedom in the last administration than all the others in your lifetime.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Didn't mean to come of snippy ..

It was just a good reminder to me that not everyone would be swayed by including mmj.

I figure that some would swing against the bill.
some would be unchanged.
some would shift to the support side if that's what it would take to get the fed to budge on mmj for real.

And again .. I'm not saying it would be a good or bad thing. Just that I believe it would make a difference in passing or not.

Lemme drag back up to the thread table, danut. Personally, I want nothing more than the opportunity to grow my own personal smoke w/o fear of the law. I recognize that health care and medical marijuana have many positive parallels. Unfortunately, marijuana is a third rail in politics. It's gonna take a major shift in opinion with the drug war dinosaurs and bible thumpin main streeters. As much as I hate to admit it, no president can pass medical mj alone w/o the shift.

IMHO, a medical marijuana provision in the proposed heath care reform legislation would be the number one tool of the right to scare folks into resisting change. A commercial is in the works, it goes something like this. "Grandma will no longer be able to get her prescription medication she needs. Her doctor will just hand her a sack of marijuana." - Paid for by the scare-people people.

I respect you're thread topic but don't understand how you think such a divisive issue could help pass health care reform. To me it's probably the single biggest thing to prevent reform short of government paying for all sex changes. Just sayin.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

The truth? It's all about wealth redistribution. You can't stand the fact your taxes don't come back to you 100%. It's because you don't recognize anything but a dollar in or out of your hand as a sign of bad times or prosperity.

That statement there shows a complete lack of the reality of what drives an economy. Who gives a shit about taxes when the country is dying from a friggin disease?

The ideals and values of the general populace are shit and because of it, their quality of life matches it. Get off this ranting about some pseudo 'conservative' outlook and start trying to get yourself out of the box you're locked in.


This goes for everyone that has any interest in the continuation of the United States:

Until you see that the healthcare industry is a speck of mud on a stagecoach about to go over a cliff.... you're wasting your resources. Now, more than ever, this country needs to focus on what's important and those are the basics.. Ethics, Education, Empowerment and Family.... Most of all Family. If you can't see how that can possibly fix for the nation, you have a lot of studying to do.

Unsubscribed......

 

[Aerokush101]

Sometimes we get stuck in our own little worlds believing someone has the answer to changes we need. Peta wants Vick to do life in prison for killing dogs, MJ users want medical marijuana legal, the march of dimes wants more quarters (lol.), but everybody wants something for there cause. YOU GET NOTHING FOR YOUR CAUSE is the real answer, Obama has bigger issues to me than MJ, and that is why he laughed at it, I would probably laugh too. I understand some of us have medical issues and believe as long as MJ is around our hopes are met, well, okay... but, you're still not getting MJ in the Obamas plan. Seriously, look out your window, open your eyes, visit a hospital, there are millions of problems out there, and sometimes life isn't just about YOU.

WAKE UP.
AK101

 

[Aerokush101]

That statement there shows a complete lack of the reality of what drives an economy. Who gives a shit about taxes when the country is dying from a friggin disease?

The ideals and values of the general populace are shit and because of it, their quality of life matches it. Get off this ranting about some pseudo 'conservative' outlook and start trying to get yourself out of the box you're locked in.


This goes for everyone that has any interest in the continuation of the United States:

Until you see that the healthcare industry is a speck of mud on a stagecoach about to go over a cliff.... you're wasting your resources. Now, more than ever, this country needs to focus on what's important and those are the basics.. Ethics, Education, Empowerment and Family.... Most of all Family. If you can't see how that can possibly fix for the nation, you have a lot of studying to do.

Unsubscribed......

BTW, I agree with 100%.

HS - Check your rep!

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

That statement there shows a complete lack of the reality of what drives an economy. Who gives a shit about taxes when the country is dying from a friggin disease?

Disease? Sounds like Hydro's prescription is more Jeebus and tax cuts.

The ideals and values of the general populace are shit and because of it, their quality of life matches it. Get off this ranting about some pseudo 'conservative' outlook and start trying to get yourself out of the box you're locked in.

Sorry, I only speaky de english.

This goes for everyone that has any interest in the continuation of the United States:

Until you see that the healthcare industry is a speck of mud on a stagecoach about to go over a cliff.... you're wasting your resources. Now, more than ever, this country needs to focus on what's important and those are the basics.. Ethics, Education, Empowerment and Family.... Most of all Family. If you can't see how that can possibly fix for the nation, you have a lot of studying to do.

Read this really slow. Rinse and repeat. This thread is about medical marijuana and the idea it'll sure as hell pass heath care reform legislation. You said it wasn't important, the overall economy was going to hell. Now you say to hell with everything and go back to the old days? What's that all about? By the way, you don't have a lock on ethics, education, and family. I don't want anything to do with your definition of empowerment because it's all about rising up and over throwing the government so we can all be freeeee!!!. Sounds like a bunch of party nuts if you ask me.

Kind of like your friend that got sucked into Amway, (everybody knows at least one.) They try to get you to interested in their way of thinking but you never quite get there because they're afraid of folks tuning them out as soon as Amway/ (insert how to fix everything that's wrong with everything here)______________________ comes up.

 

[danut]

IMHO, a medical marijuana provision in the proposed heath care reform legislation would be the number one tool of the right to scare folks into resisting change. A commercial is in the works, it goes something like this. "Grandma will no longer be able to get her prescription medication she needs. Her doctor will just hand her a sack of marijuana." - Paid for by the scare-people people.

Cool .. that's the debate that I was looking for.

There is nothing that the president could put into the bill that would require no additional support to pass. Nothing.

If something was put into the bill (anything .. not just mmj) there would have to be promotional work still involved.

Stand alone, mmj IF ACTIVELY SUPPORTED BY PRESIDENT OBAMA, might be able to be passed.

After all, more than 50% of the population of the nation live in mmj states.

Our problem is that our elected leaders get conned after, and during, the election. They start out lilke " well .. I guess it would be OK. If it's for medical." and then wind up getting convinced that it will cost them their office if they support mmj.

Who is running the con jobs on these elected officials?

Marijuana is more popular than Obama ever was on his best day!

It has been a deciding factor in the election of the last three presidents.

1. Clinton .. "I didn't inhale" (right .. sure)
2. Bush .. "It's a states right issue and should be decided by the states."
3. Obama .. "Of course I inhaled .. that was the purpose!"

Marijuana was a factor that voters could relate to with these people.

These men have been convinced that they got elected IN SPITE OF marijuana in their past.

They never realized they got some votes JUST BECAUSE OF MARIJUANA. NOT IN SPITE OF IT!

As they become more isolated, money people work to convince them that they will not get elected if they support marijuana. And they keep working to maintain that false impression in the elected official.

 

[SpasticGramps]

Disease? Sounds like Hydro's prescription is more Jeebus and tax cuts.

Sorry, I only speaky de english.
Read this really slow. Rinse and repeat. This thread is about medical marijuana and the idea it'll sure as hell pass heath care reform legislation. You said it wasn't important, the overall economy was going to hell. Now you say to hell with everything and go back to the old days? What's that all about? By the way, you don't have a lock on ethics, education, and family. I don't want anything to do with your definition of empowerment because it's all about rising up and over throwing the government so we can all be freeeee!!!. Sounds like a bunch of party nuts if you ask me.

Kind of like your friend that got sucked into Amway, (everybody knows at least one.) They try to get you to interested in their way of thinking but you never quite get there because they're afraid of folks tuning them out as soon as Amway/ (insert how to fix everything that's wrong with everything here)______________________ comes up.

I find it offensive that you think Americans who see their right's disappearing are somehow conservative loons. I agree with your assessment that the free market unchecked is unrealistic and dangerous. Greed is more of a virtue now than patience ever was. I've been dropped by and insurance company going into an operating room when I was a child. My father had to file bankruptcy because of my medical bills. I know what it's like to be hungry and not have ANYTHING because some CEO wants to improve the bottom line.

My family never asked the government for a dime nor was anything offered. We worked our asses off and now own several businesses after many years. In a Democratic Republic the federal government has little or no business doing ANYTHING because they are good at NOTHING. I can't help but think that anyone who believes a government bureaucracy running health care for 300+ million is wise, must be delusional or subscribe to revisionist history. And no you are not going to keep the doctor and insurance you "like". That's a bold faced lie. Employers will flock to a cheaper government run plan to improve their bottom line. Simple economics.

But to my greater point. Government is a necessary evil. but evil none the less. Both Bush and Obama, Republican and Democrat. They are slight variations of the same theme and they have the wool pulled over some of y'all s heads. The Republic is dissolving at an ever accelerating pace and American arrogance and apathy are marching us to 1984.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I find it offensive that you think Americans who see their right's disappearing are somehow conservative loons.

Only the ones that can't differentiate fact from fiction.

I agree with your assessment that the free market unchecked is unrealistic and dangerous. Greed is more of a virtue now than patience ever was. I've been dropped by and insurance company going into an operating room when I was a child. My father had to file bankruptcy because of my medical bills. I know what it's like to be hungry and not have ANYTHING because some CEO wants to improve the bottom line.

What do you propose, SpasticGramps? More church/social philanthropy?

My family never asked the government for a dime nor was anything offered.

I'm not asking for a dime SpasticGramps. I want to buy health insurance. You two seem to have a hard time grasping the difference.

In a Democratic Republic the federal government has little or no business doing ANYTHING because they are good at NOTHING.

How about a private sector military then? While we're at it, would you like to give back your social security and medicare?

I can't help but think that anyone who believes a government bureaucracy running health care for 300+ million is wise, must be delusional or subscribe to revisionist history.

SpasticGramps, you just said your insurance was taken away. You're gonna get a chance to buy it again. That 300+ whatever you're talking about is delusional.

And no you are not going to keep the doctor and insurance you "like". That's a bold faced lie. Employers will flock to a cheaper government run plan to improve their bottom line. Simple economics.

SpasticGramps, I don't have those things to keep. What part of that don't you understand? I took economics and simple it aint. Private sector works along side the government in more ways than you can count on your fingers and toes. Private sector health care will no longer make obscene profits but who cares, you?

But to my greater point. Government is a necessary evil. but evil none the less. Both Bush and Obama, Republican and Democrat. They are slight variations of the same theme and they have the wool pulled over some of y'all s heads. The Republic is dissolving at an ever accelerating pace and American arrogance and apathy are marching us to 1984.

whatever, can't argue fact from fiction

 

[lysol]

And no you are not going to keep the doctor and insurance you "like". That's a bold faced lie. Employers will flock to a cheaper government run plan to improve their bottom line. Simple economics.

Simple economics, my company has competitors, those competitors offer the same health plan as me, some shitty cheap one comes along, I switch to it to save $ without passing along additional benefits to my employees, my employees go over to my competitor who kept the good plan.

There are cheap shitty plans now by private companies, lots of people turn down jobs because the health insurance sucks, there are private companies that only comp 50% of your costs, yeah thats gonna help with $10M in chemo bills. The government plan option on a free market is not a single payer system, nowhere in the bill is a single payer system proposed

Now on the other hand if the plan was cheap and better, not shittier, why would the employees care? The potential for a healthcare to suck is not eliminted by not having public option, if you dont like public option dont choose it or work for an employer that uses it.

Heres another thing you probably dont realize, your employer can cease to offer healthcare benefits at any time. yep. Why arent employers flocking to drop health care offerings altogether?? hmmm?

 

[danut]

SpasticGramps, I don't have those things to keep. What part of that don't you understand? I took economics and simple it aint. Private sector works along side the government in more ways than you can count on your fingers and toes. Private sector health care will no longer make obscene profits but who cares, you?

Do you honestly believe this will result in less money being spent by our country for health care?

The way things have been going here lately, this will simply result in large checks being written to doctors, hospitals, drug and insurance companies. This is a trickle down method.

As was the bank bailout and the auto bailout.

Adding that much government involvement will tend to make the system more cumbersome and expensive.

Expensive to our children and grandchildren. In the long run, costing the very existence of the United States itself. And we stave off that final day at the cost of our offspring's trip into financial slavery. Until they can stand it no more.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

danut, yes. I trust the government before I trust the greedy private health care industry. I'm old enough to remember how things were before the supply side revolution in 1980. I know what worked then and I saw everything that has been privatized either go to hell or take too much of our money before it takes us to hell with it.

I want government intrusion no more than the next guy. Private, for-profit enterprise has intruded on me more than government ever thought about. To me, calling off the dogs is not intrusion, it's quite the opposite.

Here's a test. Name a government service that was out-right canned because the private sector does it better for less cost. There is no such thing.

Now, name any private sector deregulation that didn't blow up in the form of a bail out or charge more than average industry does.

Like the next guy, I know government can be improved and every once in a while you get a few bad apples that makes the whole cart look rotten. The power of 300 million people always trumps the power of the individual. Except for those who feel their liberty is violated.

If the public option passes and gives me a single less choice than I already have now, I won't lose anything. Seriously though, less choice means less opportunity for the private sector to financially rape me and then deny coverage after I've paid the damn policy for christ sakes.

 

[danut]

So "I'll sell you my unborn grand child for a hamburger today." is OK with you?

danut, yes. I trust the government before I trust the greedy private health care industry. I'm old enough to remember how things were before the supply side revolution in 1980. I know what worked then and I saw everything that has been privatized either go to hell or take too much of our money before it takes us to hell with it.

I want government intrusion no more than the next guy. Private, for-profit enterprise has intruded on me more than government ever thought about. To me, calling off the dogs is not intrusion, it's quite the opposite.

Here's a test. Name a government service that was out-right canned because the private sector does it better for less cost. There is no such thing.

Now, name any private sector deregulation that didn't blow up in the form of a bail out or charge more than average industry does.

Like the next guy, I know government can be improved and every once in a while you get a few bad apples that makes the whole cart look rotten. The power of 300 million people always trumps the power of the individual. Except for those who feel their liberty is violated.

If the public option passes and gives me a single less choice than I already have now, I won't lose anything. Seriously though, less choice means less opportunity for the private sector to financially rape me and then deny coverage after I've paid the damn policy for christ sakes.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

somebody bring back Hydro-Soil, at least he speaks english

 

[hardhat22]

The house bill proposes everyone be able to purchase health insurance, just like you're able to do. No give aways. We'll still have folks that don't buy insurance and go to the emergency room just like they do now. There will just be alot less.The public option proposes choice. Choice means you can keep what you have already. Sorry man, when the greedy get too greedy, something has to get them back in line with everybody else. That's the way it is. That's the way it's gonna be.

Umm,no.We'll be fined if we refuse to take out insurance.Obama and Bidden have spoken of a $1000 fine or larger.So there goes our freedom of choice.Here's a take on the forced insurance in Socialists Massachussets;
http://healthplans.hcpro.com/content.cfmcontent_id=237105&topic=WS_HLM2_HEP

You really ought to reconsider telling 50 million they're not worthy of the opportunity to purchase health insurance.

50 million??!! Ya'll still using that number?? Have you actually researched that?Remember,no fair counting non-citizens,or those within job transition who will resume coverage at a new job.As you research that number,it gets smaller and smaller.
Here's an article from 07-18-2007 discussing this trumped up number,which came from the Census Bureau way back in 2005. : D
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

Majority rule, it's the law of the land. Freedom is relative to the laws on the books. You lost more freedom in the last administration than all the others in your lifetime.

It wasn't always like this.The original govt was not set up this way.Our first repuglican president planned to change this well before he started his presidential campaign,and was wildly successfull.Previously,if the minority didn't agree with govt mandates,they had options.The majority did not rule when we were a free people.More freedoms and people were lost during reconstruction than was lost during the clinton/bush eras.The more laws that are mandated,the fewer freedoms we have.The millions of American ancestors who fought to secure and retain the freedoms we had are being laughed at today by those who would continue to remove freedom of choice.History may change,but the facts never will.

Peace

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

hardhat22, all I can suggest is read the House bill. I can't find the $1000.00 fine part, can you? Somebody saying something and it actually happening are different things. A proposal has to be voted on to become a bill. A bill has to be voted on to become law. Debating hearsay is not necessarily debating fact. If folks refuse to purchase affordable health insurance, they'll continue to go to the emergency room for treatment. Lots of these folks don't pay the bill and it gets passed on to the rest of us. Maybe they should be fined. It's like a driver out wrecking cars and won't pay because he doesn't have auto insurance. Auto insurance wasn't written into the Constitution. Nobody's arguing about auto insurance wrecking their freedom. And before you argue that auto insurance is private industry, big government regulates the hell out of what they may charge. The health care industry has no such regulations. They charge what they think they can get away with. Greed, plain and simple.

I read the link you provided about the 50 million number. These guys are from the small business lobby. There's a single line in the entire article that says ~10 million aren't citizens. Where did they get this figure? The Census isn't a guess. It's factual data compiled by professional recorders and statisticians. Until somebody proves their claim, I'll trust the professionals to do their job.

Freedom of choice eh? Are you cool with a woman's right to choose abortion?

You see, conservatives are freedom takers too. They mandate social laws. Laws to divide, exclude, conquer.....all that. They want to mandate a god I don't worship at a courthouse I get busted in. They want to teach my kids that the earth is 4800 years old and jeebus is coming back to end the world but save the worthy.

Progressives mandate law to protect the average joe from the average greedy executive.

I fully understand a rich person arguing conservative rhetoric from a financial perspective. It's all about greed.

I don't understand the have nots whistling freedom and rights as a way to get by in a greedy corporate world. We've lost far more income and benefits in the last 30 years than freedom and rights.

 

[danut]

somebody bring back Hydro-Soil, at least he speaks english

OK .. I'll bring it back a little for you.

To pay for everything that we want for our government to provide for us, we have to borrow the money from somewhere.

There's some very big bucks that we borrow from China.

See .. I'm trying to keep it in economics.

Think of the people in China and the health care they get. These are the people that we borrow money from to pay for the things we want today.

Is it a good thing to deplete their resources (financially) to pay for our wants and needs for today?

And how are we to repay these resources that we borrow?

We have no plan to do so.

So then the plan so far is to borrow money, from people in greater need than us, with no plan to repay it.
That makes us a nation of thieves.

If .. if if if we were to stop borrowing money right now, it would take generations to repay what we've already borrowed. In that case our children and grandchildren get to pay for our wants and needs of today. It is those unborn people that I feel the most sad for.

And stopping this "feed me today and I'll pay you tomorrow" isn't likely to slow or stop.

BTW the reference about hamburger's .. The old Popeye cartoons featured someone named Whimpy that would always ask "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

We have become Whimpy as a nation.