Is There a Reason to Stop Feeding Other Than Flushing?

[Clackamas Coot]

Now I'm hyper-ventilating! That is funny!

CC

 

[jaykush]

have 30 yr+ stoner girls that test cant tell difference between same cut grown w/ gh floran nova bllom+kool bloom+floralicious+other chem additives vs. cut grown w/ only myco tab (added @ transplant, under root), and fed only molasses. no difference between the two, as far as quality goes.

what kind of soil did you use, just curious? regular potting soil + molasses only will grow mediocre buds at best, even with a mycorrhizal fungi.

 

[KnuckleHedd]

A belated reply to JWM. I like EJ Bloom a lot for late flowering. Years ago I tried to use it all the way thru and didn't like it as much. If you follow the directions and use 2 tbs per gallon you'll have a ph of 4.2 (with my water). But I wasn't bubbling my water or nute mix then. So my leaves would yellow and drop off at an alarming rate. If you bubble it at least 24 hrs, 48 is better, the ph will come back up to acceptable or almost acceptable levels. EJ produces a tastey product. Soft smoke.

 

[KnuckleHedd]

I hope CC is kidding about the grape Koolaid. There was a local guy using a pine cone tea that he believed would impart a piney taste. He believed it till after harvest....

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Yes - I am kidding.

CC

 

[alpinestar]

You are discussing conventional chemical farming here and not organics.

no it applies in the same way
any way you add it, the nitrogen will do the same thing if its there in excess

depending on what organic method you're using (such as a preammended soil) you may have to "flush" earlier

the more you grow, the more you will realize that every watering is a flush to some degree, and cutting out nutes of one type such as N while still adding normal p and k to the water solution that you use, is essentially "flushing" out the nitrogen, while not being what someone would traditionally consider a "flush" - which would be straight h20 or a very low ec solution

this helps bring up the importance of the issue of good drainage and a soil/media mix that doesnt hold nutrients for too long

 

[Clackamas Coot]

the more you grow, the more you will realize that every watering is a flush to some degree

Microbeman

See what you need to learn to be a cannabis grower? All your other work in the field of organic growing is just so much phooey! Better alert the folks over at Soil Food Web, the Yahoo compost tea group, et al. - your education is lacking!

"Flush, flush that plant!
Flush, flush that plant to death!"

BTW - What does nitrogen taste like? Should I be flushing my strawberries and tomatoes out in the garden?

LOL

CC

 

[OsWiZzLe]

some real information...but from who else of course....ya boy gojo from cw.....

By flushing we are trying to remove nuritens (usually salts) from our media. This in turn is thought to 'force' the plant to use up the nitrogen already in the plant due to the fact N is mobile. One problem I have with this theory is I have not seen data on how long it takes a plant to 'use up' the N it already holds, I assume a week or more is enough time. Nitrogen does indeed play in important role in chlorophyll synthesis, but so does high intensity shorter-wavelengths in the 'blue' spectrum (~350-500 nm)[1].

But my biggest 'issue' with this is assumption of fact when it is only conjecture, even if it is first hand. For example, I do not flush and my plants taste and smell amazing. I do not believe the link of nitrogen in late flowering makes flowers taste or smell bad. Using leaf color as an indicator is also not a good idea. Chlorophyll synthesis is from N and blue light as I've mentioned. But, leaf senescence and abscission are due to "phytochrome responses", not to mention chloroplast development[/] (not chlorophyll synthesis) is regulated by phytochrome response.[1]

 

[Microbeman]

I give up

 

[alpinestar]

Microbeman

See what you need to learn to be a cannabis grower? All your other work in the field of organic growing is just so much phooey! Better alert the folks over at Soil Food Web, the Yahoo compost tea group, et al. - your education is lacking!

"Flush, flush that plant!
Flush, flush that plant to death!"

BTW - What does nitrogen taste like? Should I be flushing my strawberries and tomatoes out in the garden?

LOL

CC

Excess nutrients organic or non organic make bud taste bitter and burn terribly

and i apologize to microbeman
it is not my intention to insult your ability of growing by the "the more you grow, the more..." part in my last post

 

[maryjohn]

Excess nutrients organic or non organic make bud taste bitter and burn terribly

and i apologize to microbeman
it is not my intention to insult your ability of growing by the "the more you grow, the more..." part in my last post

you didn't insult his growing ability. nobody cares about that. you annoyed him by not bringing the same knowledge set to the table, which makes it impossible to communicate. It would help if you read a little bit on the food soil web.

Also you have to understand this is a discussion seen over and over again and it gets tiresome to keep explaining the basics.

 

[magiccannabus]

we're actually talking about organic products like you find in a growstore. the stuff that helps mj is the same stuff that helps thousands of other similar plants. I went to a grow store (with "organic" in the name) for the first time this year, and I was amazed. The actual growing supplies were reasonable (I got a big bag of coarse perlite), but they had this whole big section of "organic" bottled nutes you would never see in a garden center or specialty greenhouse supply.

He asked me what nutes I used, and I said I just amend the soil with good ingredients and use teas. After trying to sell me superthrive, he tried to sell me a bottle of "worm tea", some kind of bottled product that sits on the shelf for months. I was blown away. How can this kind of business survive?

My hatred of Miracle Grow is right up there with my hatred of Bose speakers. I sometimes type it when I am just thinking negative thoughts about something else lol

Still, the point is, fancy chemical nutrients are supposed to be so wonderful, but I do just as well with a pile of cow shit that I bought for a couple dollars, and it lasts me ages!

I remember seeing Terracycle at Home Depot and thinking to myself, "How the fuck do they keep the microbes alive?". The short answer of course is that they don't really. There might be some spores or something lurking dormant in the medium, but it's basically a weak compost tea without all the beneficials. The compost tea I make on a bad day is probably a hundred times as strong. The stuff they sell is nearly clear! 99% water in a recycled bottle and it still costs 8 dollars for 16oz of it!? That's more of a markup than bottled water!(which itself costs more than gasoline). The funny thing is, I think they're one of the better companies trying to cash in on "organic".

The ONLY company that is pretty mainstream that still has my respect is Espoma. Not as cheap as everyone, but the quality of the product as well as the quantity is really good for the price. The bags last a long time, and bio-tone has some great beneficials in it. The biggest irony in all of this is that Espoma isn't OMRI certified, and from what I understand they have no desire to be. OMRI definitely isn't everything. My composted manure isn't rated by them either, but it's definitely organic.

 

[BesideHimself]

It's almost like they don't want to understand.

"You mean, the plant controls it's own nutrient uptake by attracting bacteria? Blasphemy! I am in control here!"

 

[maryjohn]

I like espoma too. they sell things in the right quantity for the micro grower, and bio tone is good stuff with a wonderful list of ingredients.

generally the companies geared to regular growers and gardeners have more honest products and pricing. generally...

 

[magiccannabus]

stated that plants cant tell difference between chem and organic electrical charges.
you have only described how the charges are 'applied'; not how the plant can/cant discriminate between a chem vs. 'organic' charge.

technically speaking, a company can simply bond a carbon atom to the chem molecule and term it 'organic', as organic chemistry only adds that carbon atom

Organic is definitely a tricky term. There's more to the picture than just what goes into the soil and plant though. Fertilizer salts break down differently than other fertilizer forms. Sure it may effectively be the same thing to the plant, but to the soil biology it's not the same thing at all, thus it's not "organic".

have 30 yr+ stoner girls that test cant tell difference between same cut grown w/ gh floran nova bllom+kool bloom+floralicious+other chem additives vs. cut grown w/ only myco tab (added @ transplant, under root), and fed only molasses. no difference between the two, as far as quality goes.

nearly impossible to tell difference between chem/organic grown by master grower... gardeneing skill the real variable in drawing bright-line relevant to using chem/org

Was this a blind, or double-blind study? I really think a study of that sort needs to be done over a wider field than just your personal experience. I'm not even saying I doubt your results, but there's a lot of factors. Did you add beneficials other than the myco tab to the soil fed with molasses? How much molasses did you use? Did you use water with chlorine in it?

The plants also uptake more heavy metals from chemical fertilizers. There's a lot of incidental toxins that end up attracted to the salt crystals. More mercury, more lead, more radioactivity. Flushing only partly fixes this problem. I don't flush though and my bud tastes better straight off the plant than most cured bud I've ever had. It's clean because I know what I'm putting into it, and what I am NOT putting into it.

really boils down to preference of growing method.

a master gardener can+will produce superior fruit - whatever ferts thay have available.

it is the gardener that has the discrimination to apply @ certain times, adjust ph, alter temps, keep rh low, etc., etc.

To a degree this is true, but organics has allowed me a level of hands-off that I never had before. I no longer even THINK about pH, and thanks to coco coir, I also never think about over-watering. I run a pretty lazy grow in a lot of ways. When I used chemicals, it was much more work, and at least a hundred times more problematic. pH issues, disease, pests, and the risk of burning were all problems I had with chemical salts that I do not have with a healthy and active rhizosphere.

 

[NOYB]

BTW - What does nitrogen taste like? Should I be flushing my strawberries and tomatoes out in the garden?

This is basically my 'comeback' to anyone that says flushing is necessary in organics. For my first real organic grow I ended up picking REALLY green plants, my buddy said don't worry and sure enough turned out sweet and smooth and way batter than any other stuff I had grown which I flushed 'properly'. Organics rocks plain and simple.

 

[VerdantGreen]

flushing as in pouring lots of water through the pot i don't do.

but i do stop any feeding and try to make sure the nutrients in the soil mix run low by the end. i believe you get better smoke that way, and it also helps the plant ripen and finish imo

V.

 

[*mistress*]

Mistress, let me clear a few things up. When we say organic we don't mean to distinguish from "inorganic", which is a chemistry term, we mean to distinguish from "not organic" or "conventional", which is an agricultural term in this case. Let's not confuse that anymore, ok?

As for your demands for explanations from Microbeman, simply click on his name and look for more posts by him, where he explains the differences between synthetic chemical growing with direct application of ionic nutes and organic growing with the microherd.

For further research, google "food soil web", and you will learn why nutrients stay in an organic grow instead of flushing out and polluting our bodies of water. You should also look up your own biology and learn what percentage of the cells in your body are actually microbes. You have a microherd too. Now are you getting a feel for how a symbiotic relationships work. There is a quid pro quo going on beneath the surface of the soil, with various organisms trading one resource or service for another and effectively responding to supply and demand. A nute marketplace with predators and victims. Yes, it's that complex, beautiful, and utterly improbable. But it's true.

We try to grow with our health and our environment in mind. We grow organic.

and we don't flush it down, unless it's brown. (or if your lady is around, yellow.)

did not intend to be inflammatory in thread. usually dont post in organic soil forum.

to begin, the title of the forum was not specifically addressed in *mistress* intial post.

this is method run in imaginary garden:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=127112
coco+wick+gh flora nova=never dump run-off|pdg’s imaginary/enjoyable garden

and this:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=126834
goalre-fertilized coco+water only

actually stop all nutes @ 2 weeks left. only water until 3 days left. then nothing. end.

am not confused about terms used. familar w/ attra + soil food web, etc, etc materials. have gardened orgainically. do so in the there then (in imagination).

microherd is in chem media as well as organic media. dont think microherd has adapted to the indoor gardens of modern times? same as plants have adapted to indoor growing. all species seek to adapt and survive. some gardeners simply prefer organic mineral application.

not activist. pollution seems societal issue. very familar w/ biology+chemistry.+organic gardening. do it w/ molasses + myco.

run no-run-off garden (in imagination), that never dumps a single drop of water or nutes - for entire grow. no need to... no waste, whatsoever. gh has stable ph. wick draws h20+npk-c-mg-s, etc, when needed.

stop n in week 4 of 8 week cultivar. stop n is week 5 of 9 wk cultivar. some differ. have to find ea strain's critical peak. have found (fictitiously), that most tomato plants that gardeners here like, could really go to @ least 10 weeks. most pull early... good practice is to harvest @ 63 days, and then @ 70 days. water only from day 42. that is when you get swollen fruit.

most seem obsessed w/ fertilization, whether chem or org. have other goals in garden (in make believe). some have pics of mature plants w/ fully green fan leaves. can feed plenty of pk-mg-ca-s, etc, just get the n out of there. either way, if media based, can really use only water from week 4-5 to end, if really want clean fruit.

what kind of soil did you use, just curious? regular potting soil + molasses only will grow mediocre buds at best, even with a mycorrhizal fungi.

mix and method in link above. gold black coco blend [coco+pumice+peat+org wetting agent]+coco+perlite. myco tab [npk 17-9-5], crumbled and spread in media @ transplant.

not just regular molasses, did many experiments w/ readily-available molasses. this is best per tablespoon, ivho:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2558813&postcount=41
Sugary Supplements:
not all molasses' the same...
single comparison between 2 very readily available brands, @ serving size of 1 tablespoon:

brer rabbit molasses, full flavor:
potassium 290 mg 8%
calcium 10%
magnesium 20%
iron 15%
sodium 25 mg 1%
total carbohydrates 15 g 5%
sugars 11 g

wholesome sweeteners organic molasses: [organic and fair trade cert.]
potassium 730 mg 20%
calcium 115 mg 10%
magnesium 8%
iron 15%
vitamin b6 10%
sodium 0%
total carbohydrates 14 g 4%
sugars 10 g

there is also this:
dry molasses
http://redentas.com/shop/dry-molasses.html

no, mediocre tomatoes are not tolerated. dont measure y.eld as a variable, but they were comparable to gh. also foliar @ ph 7.0 w/ molasses w/ excellent results, up until week 6 or so.

try it, may find dont really even need all the many organic fashions in/out. really into simplicity those days. narrowed down to the ^ methods after many cycles of experimentation.

mediocrity is for slaves, am dom-goddess and demand only best.

730 mg of potassium per tbspn is not ppm plant will ignore and shrug off. nor 115 mg of cal; that plants always need. since cal may be difficult to translocate @ times in plant, foliar @ 1/4-1/5 tbspn, ph <7.0 [leaves assimilate better alkaline solutions].

no it applies in the same way
any way you add it, the nitrogen will do the same thing if its there in excess

depending on what organic method you're using (such as a preammended soil) you may have to "flush" earlier

the more you grow, the more you will realize that every watering is a flush to some degree, and cutting out nutes of one type such as N while still adding normal p and k to the water solution that you use, is essentially "flushing" out the nitrogen, while not being what someone would traditionally consider a "flush" - which would be straight h20 or a very low ec solution

this helps bring up the importance of the issue of good drainage and a soil/media mix that doesnt hold nutrients for too long

.....

My hatred of Miracle Grow is right up there with my hatred of Bose speakers. I sometimes type it when I am just thinking negative thoughts about something else lol

that can/may be the case, but the basic 15-30-15 npk plant food can sometimes quickly revive and revitalize.
use it sometimes 1 time, sometimes never. depends on general health of plant. used as a 1-time tonic.
also, 1 of the b.o.a.t. water-only mixes has miracle grow:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=95395&highlight=blazeoneup+hits+dirt

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=95395&highlight=blazeoneup+hits+dirt

inspired pre-ferted coco w/ myco, molasses.

Organic is definitely a tricky term. There's more to the picture than just what goes into the soil and plant though. Fertilizer salts break down differently than other fertilizer forms. Sure it may effectively be the same thing to the plant, but to the soil biology it's not the same thing at all, thus it's not "organic".

Was this a blind, or double-blind study? I really think a study of that sort needs to be done over a wider field than just your personal experience. I'm not even saying I doubt your results, but there's a lot of factors. Did you add beneficials other than the myco tab to the soil fed with molasses? How much molasses did you use? Did you use water with chlorine in it?

The plants also uptake more heavy metals from chemical fertilizers. There's a lot of incidental toxins that end up attracted to the salt crystals. More mercury, more lead, more radioactivity. Flushing only partly fixes this problem. I don't flush though and my bud tastes better straight off the plant than most cured bud I've ever had. It's clean because I know what I'm putting into it, and what I am NOT putting into it.

To a degree this is true, but organics has allowed me a level of hands-off that I never had before. I no longer even THINK about pH, and thanks to coco coir, I also never think about over-watering. I run a pretty lazy grow in a lot of ways. When I used chemicals, it was much more work, and at least a hundred times more problematic. pH issues, disease, pests, and the risk of burning were all problems I had with chemical salts that I do not have with a healthy and active rhizosphere.

whether fertilizers break down quickly or slowly, the key is knowing when to stop n.

a gardener will have to know the strain, how to pre-mix, etc. whether chem or org.

the study was 2 lifetimes ago, cant remember fictitious clouds nor moon...

if organics make your gardening experience enjoyable, ENJOY! that/this is ultimate objective, seemingly - to enjoy chives, basil, and tomatoes. if fed them bread, sugar, or beer - up to preferences of gardener... it is you that will eat it.

flush is real simple due to most indoor plants being annuals, that only require pushing along to finish - and fully blossom in that single season.

enjoy your garden!

 

[magiccannabus]

microherd is in chem media as well as organic media. dont think microherd has adapted to the indoor gardens of modern times? same as plants have adapted to indoor growing. all species seek to adapt and survive. some gardeners simply prefer organic mineral application.

It's not a matter of there being microorganisms present, it's about which ones you're encouraging and what they do. The rhizosphere is not adapted to function for chemical nutrients. It's had a couple billion years of evolution to develop into the systems we now see. It can't adapt the entire ecosystem to facilitate chemical nutes in 50-100 years. From an evolutionary standpoint that's no time at all.

flush is real simple due to most indoor plants being annuals, that only require pushing along to finish - and fully blossom in that single season.

Sure they are annuals but they don't need to be grown that way. Some people reveg, and our cloning and mom practices are not "natural". It's not about that at all. It's about all the benefits of organics that range from never needing to test pH to the incredibly low cost of good food sources. I also like that if my plant doesn't want a nutrient, the ecology doesn't supply it. This is why NPK is nearly useless in organics.

 

[maryjohn]

Misstress, let me first say that you are welcome here to say anything, but you must expect a response, and I would ask that you consider what is being said and do some more research with an open mind rather than saying "I already know about that".

whether fertilizers break down quickly or slowly, the key is knowing when to stop n.

this is an ignorant statement, the basis of this whole misunderstanding. in an organic grow, there is no way to "stop" the N. There is plenty of it left by flowering, though it is mostly sequestered. that is why the NPK ratings of organic amendments are so low. Sequestered, in case anyone does not know, means "held apart". In other words, having no interaction whatsoever with the plant. Atoms of N are found in every microbe as part of amino acids, and locked away in organic matter. This is basic soil science. As part of programmed senescence, the flowering plant stops "requesting" N from the microherd. Your mistake: just because a nitrogenous amendment decomposes, does not mean all that N is suddenly available or given to the plant. You paradigm is essentially crippling your ability to think critically.

Chemical fertilizers are salts, readily available, and your microherd and plant are not adapted to regulate uptake. Thus the grower must work to regulate through chemical intervention what would otherwise happen organically. See how that word works?

Besides amendments that have little or no immediate interaction with our plants, it is possible to add an amendment full of N that takes N away from your plants to break down cellulose. So you can see how N in the soil, unlike chemical gardening, does not necessarily mean uptake of N.

Let me point out how preposterous your theories are: if what you say is true, organic grown MJ would be the worst in the world. As it is, organic MJ has a reputation for being the best quality in all aspects. Most of it is never "flushed".

no, I don't believe you understand the food soil web, or you wouldn't post this misinformation. I used to take your point of view, by the way, so think twice before calling me a zealot, if that's what you're thinking. Think about it hard: why are you here, talking organics if you don't practice organic growing, and are you willing to learn something new? Here we do organic growing, which is both an older and more sophisticated way to grow. Your assumptions and argumentative stance only serve as an impediment to learning.

I am glad you do a "no runoff" grow, but you are still using toxic products coming from a dirty industry that is raping our planet. That alone is a good reason to apply the same logic to your inside plants as you do your outside plants. Especially ones you plan on combusting and inhaling.

That's all I have to say about this. If you want to talk organics here, either get educated so you don't sound mostly clueless, or ask some questions and listen to the answer before giving uneducated rants. I say that with affection, you sound very nice and smart, but you could not be more confused about soil science. My own father worked his whole life selling pesticides, and he studied soil science extensively. I now find myself explaining it to him, because science has "advanced backwards".

As for husbandry, try this: do a whole grow with slight nutrient stress starting about 3/4 of the way through veg. Do not flush. Your plant will respond to the stress by flowering very hard and if properly cured your buds will taste fine. Your observations are accurate, but it's the stress that improves your flowering, not the flushing per se.

In my grow I simply mix in the amendments at the start, then pretty much give plain water to the end. I scrog, so by flowering those little 8" pots are pretty depleted. Am I "flushing"? Hell no! I am growing organic. The cycle is not limited to one plant, so why would I flush something I am going to use later?

One more thing, if you are into history. Google the term "green revolution" along with "health". No, really, do it.