Eh? If I'm not a normal plant breeder, who is?
why not breed with fem'd seed?
- Thread starter chongsbuddy
- Start date
G
guest123
With regards to cannabis? "None of us, not a one", none of us has been afforded that opportunity. That's why Hyb is screaming to stash those seeds for a later day. He is 100% correct when he accuses us of too often a cycle with too few plants and that this is entirely unsustainable.
I guess you have a point. It is possible to grow over a hundred indoor crops, including multiple smaller waves to total large seedbatches over 40 years span, saving seeds from each and every female, trying every breeding scheme under the sun before everyone else, and still not really be a breeder. I mean...not really. After all, breedy is in the eye of the beholder!
G
guest123
You may have me wrong there Mr.G, I am as guilty as anybody of the things I speak of but I am not going to sugar coat it either. It is what it is and in the end all will be judged on a curve so have at it if you want, I surely will. But, I'd be a lying fool if I was to sit here and tell you that I wouldn't trade every single seed I have today for what I could have collected and saved 25+ years ago. Why should I think I'll be feeling different in another 25+ years? I won't, it's the reality of the situation that we're up against. Stopping, and storing snapshots of today will look real damn good tomorrow, just as they would have 25+ years ago. If I had the epic Thai of yesteryear I sure as hell wouldn't be riffling through this needle in a haystack sativa of today.
I'm just saying that feminized seeds don't have enough variation to be interesting in my experience. Everyone looks for variation through outcross, all beginner breeders cross everything in sight. I was brought up in an organic gardening family and knew the value of heirlooms early and learned my grandmothers methods of hand pollination of vegetables. I always kept my head towards preserving lines more than crossing, though of course I've made my share. Just because it's so common in the cannabis community to hybridize everything in sight doesn't mean it's bad to inbreed. If anyone wants to know about what happens when you inbreed for many generations, just ask me. I've done it.
I see no reason not to inbreed plants in any way one wants to, even selfing. It's just that the experienced breeder watches out for any kind of bottleneck that prevents generational improvement. Anyone who doesn't believe that generations can be improved without incross simply hasn't done it. Just ask.
I see no reason not to inbreed plants in any way one wants to, even selfing. It's just that the experienced breeder watches out for any kind of bottleneck that prevents generational improvement. Anyone who doesn't believe that generations can be improved without incross simply hasn't done it. Just ask.
G
guest123
I know what you're saying man. But you also said that the majority of feminized seeds you've experienced were in fact naturally occurring, and therefore probably selfed. And forced reversals are completely within the control of the breeder and therefore no such differences regarding variation need exist. I was unaware of your propensity towards heirloom/true breeding lines, very good. Someone with some vision. What else you holding over there Mr.G? 
Yeah, I'm sure all the fem'd seeds I've grown were selfed. I'm curious about crosses between two ladies, I'm sure they have quite a bit of variation.
"What else you holding over there Mr.G?" Heh, well I'm teaching quite a bit of it right here on this thread. Like Zappa said, "the mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work unless it's open". I'm sorry if my experience seem improbable. Should I get a local, or longtime friend to come on and vouch for me? "Dude, Mr. Greengenes is the real snz". I'd rather be judged just by my words. I like to just listen to other peoples words rather than consider their credentials, and I like it when they do the same for me.
"What else you holding over there Mr.G?" Heh, well I'm teaching quite a bit of it right here on this thread. Like Zappa said, "the mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work unless it's open". I'm sorry if my experience seem improbable. Should I get a local, or longtime friend to come on and vouch for me? "Dude, Mr. Greengenes is the real snz". I'd rather be judged just by my words. I like to just listen to other peoples words rather than consider their credentials, and I like it when they do the same for me.
G
guest123
hehe, no man, I meant like,
I've got two from Pakistan, one from Afghanistan, one from India, one from Mexico, a Haze, and more, many going back/preserved by me for decades. All breed true for many traits, most are far removed from the typical drug canna-genepool. I've heard of this Hawaiian Cherry Bomb over the years, sounds great. What else you holding over there Mr.G?
I've got two from Pakistan, one from Afghanistan, one from India, one from Mexico, a Haze, and more, many going back/preserved by me for decades. All breed true for many traits, most are far removed from the typical drug canna-genepool. I've heard of this Hawaiian Cherry Bomb over the years, sounds great. What else you holding over there Mr.G?
great to read this discussion - real gold dust for someone like me who has ambitions and just started making seeds.
thanks
V.
thanks
V.
I'd assume the reverse to also be true, but you know how assumptions are. I'd imagine that they would be very unlikely to occur naturally though. Charles is the chap to ask about that.
I've never had an all male batch of seeds no, I have no personal experience of femminising seeds at all, I always use male pollen. Though I do stress test my plants using moronic environments. While it may not preserve the purest form of landrace strains, it does produce plants that wont hermie when plants next to them in the same conditions do. The 2 things are totally different propositions, both important in their own right. It all depends what the grower needs in their situation whether breeder looking for ancient traits not brought out or the closet grower wanting some no fuss smoke.
Ahh, that's what I thought you meant cannafriend! I'm still keeping CB of course, and I have another one I only refer to as 'my secret weapon' on posts. Briefly, it's a cross between an afghani hashweed and a jamaican lambsbreath I made around '77.
Then, I've been working on various stuff down through the years. About eight years ago, one friend brought me two different select clones of White Widow. I crossed out and back and forth and every which way but loose. I call that one White Wizard. A bit more potent with a bigger canopy for supercropping and bending techniques than the original. I tried to preserve and amplify the smooth smoking, deceptively potent WW thing.
Shorter term things would be stuff less than 6 years on the burner like this amazing strain a lady gave me. Seeds come from her brother in Germany. Another supposedly 'white widow X hash plant' 4 seeds were gifted to me and resulted in 3 females 1 male about 5 years back. Now, the plants are big yielding, dark green leafed, sweet potent, 'crinkle leafed' things with choice clones in every batch. No name there. Another very knowledgable grower friend who's spent quite a bit of time in SEAsia brought me some select seeds from the Mekong river area a couple years ago. I wrestled with beautifully seductive ladyboys for 3 generations before crossing that with my 'secret weapon'. Amazing alligator tail leaves, spicy taste, euphoric long lasting stone, stable strain, no name. My girlfriend said, "me love you long time". I like it. Of course theres more.
I'm always fooling around with elite cuts that I like. Got a nice Jack H cut that crossed with my WWizards real purdy. Lots of nice plants no hay in the grow, which way to go? As you might imagine, I have to toss seeds to my friends all the time.
Then, I've been working on various stuff down through the years. About eight years ago, one friend brought me two different select clones of White Widow. I crossed out and back and forth and every which way but loose. I call that one White Wizard. A bit more potent with a bigger canopy for supercropping and bending techniques than the original. I tried to preserve and amplify the smooth smoking, deceptively potent WW thing.
Shorter term things would be stuff less than 6 years on the burner like this amazing strain a lady gave me. Seeds come from her brother in Germany. Another supposedly 'white widow X hash plant' 4 seeds were gifted to me and resulted in 3 females 1 male about 5 years back. Now, the plants are big yielding, dark green leafed, sweet potent, 'crinkle leafed' things with choice clones in every batch. No name there. Another very knowledgable grower friend who's spent quite a bit of time in SEAsia brought me some select seeds from the Mekong river area a couple years ago. I wrestled with beautifully seductive ladyboys for 3 generations before crossing that with my 'secret weapon'. Amazing alligator tail leaves, spicy taste, euphoric long lasting stone, stable strain, no name. My girlfriend said, "me love you long time". I like it. Of course theres more.
I'm always fooling around with elite cuts that I like. Got a nice Jack H cut that crossed with my WWizards real purdy. Lots of nice plants no hay in the grow, which way to go? As you might imagine, I have to toss seeds to my friends all the time.
Canna friend,, phenotypic variation is related to environ.
In the past we used variation in photo-period,, excessive temps (generated by lamps in summer months),, and the rigors of commercial cloning to help judge which strains were sexually stable... which were homogeneous and which were not.
The corner of an Angel Dust garden... x100 female plants from x200 seeds...
Here's an example,, UK Cheese is a true breeding clone,, when stressed it does NOT produce male flowers,, (ask any grower out their that grows the real Exodus cut how many seeds they get each grow.. 0% ).
Many Cheese crosses show intersex flowers on some branches... Seed companies seeking to feminize Cheese were cornered into using Cheese crosses to make fem. seeds. Otherwise anyone could/would have bought in the original cut,, sprayed it,, and made pure fem. Cheese seeds a long time back ,, just imagine the marketing opportunity.. hehe
As for male plants,,, we used to top them in early flowering to judge vigor on the grow-back,, and keep a close eye out for abnormal / intersex male/female flowers when ripening.
Hope this helps
imo ,,this whole discution is centered around 1 question "will selfing create plants that self themselvs"....
sounds like your sujesting that,,, "manipulating the hormones of an indervidual will have an effect on inheritance and progrency"... i think that might be a valid argument, if it can be backed up
Haha...You can inhibit the female side of its sexuality using chemicals. That's all.
Likewise,, selecting "male flowers",, from sexually unstable parents,, after using methods of stress,, is far from a desirable method of breeding.
Owl Mirror - Soma calls the method you mention of stressing females to produce naturally occurring male flowers "Rodelization" ,,, n.b. because the dude that taught him it was called 'Rod'. There's a chapter about it in one of his books
Hope this helps
Thanks Doc !
http://www.rollitup.org/advanced-ma...806-feminizing-seeds-rodelization-method.html
i dont think selfing agents alter the cell nucleus's DNA, rarther gene expression. the genetic information passed on to the progeny should be unaltered.
many plants in the early days were collected from guys in places, like pakistan/india, nepal, thailand etc etc..... guys whose families had been making hash from the same gene pool for hundreds and hundreds of years, by taking out all the males they could see in the field and walking away leaving one or two chunky males near some of the better girls (if they even thought that much about it) for the seeds for next years crop. this method for thousands of years has selected for "sneaky"(that is the technical term), sneaky male genes, also known as hermies,why would they leave hermies? probably mainly because they had too many plants! that and the fact they were making hash.
cannabis already had a very wide geographic distribution with various isolated populations, before our ancestors even got out of africa. when all of mans common ancestors (excluding most modern africans), walked out of the north east of africa and into what is now saudi arabia, syria, iran and pakistan, they may have braught some seeds with them......chances are they found ganja everywhere around that area anyway.
from the middle east our ancestors went in all directions, taking and finding ganja as they went.
i guess my point is, that most of the genes in all those seeds on seedboutique come from a mungrel background from all four corners of the earth, many with thousands of years of conscious and unconscious selection pressures by man written somewhere in them. our ancestors didnt care about hermies, why would they ??? they were way too busy making hash, like those same guys right now still in pakistan (or whatever) slaving away beating a bundle of stems with a big stick to collect the crystals.
i dont think poor cannabis ever really wanted to be a hermie, or carrie hermie genes in any large amount through her population, although sneaky male genes and techniques exist in most populations, of any creature on this earth, but usually, naturally, at low levels. a vigorous male that produces 10 times the amount of pollen should always outcompete some retarded hermie gene carrying creation .
i dont think cannabis has been allowed to want anything, for thousands and thousands of years, she gets what we let her have.
many plants in the early days were collected from guys in places, like pakistan/india, nepal, thailand etc etc..... guys whose families had been making hash from the same gene pool for hundreds and hundreds of years, by taking out all the males they could see in the field and walking away leaving one or two chunky males near some of the better girls (if they even thought that much about it) for the seeds for next years crop. this method for thousands of years has selected for "sneaky"(that is the technical term), sneaky male genes, also known as hermies,why would they leave hermies? probably mainly because they had too many plants! that and the fact they were making hash.
cannabis already had a very wide geographic distribution with various isolated populations, before our ancestors even got out of africa. when all of mans common ancestors (excluding most modern africans), walked out of the north east of africa and into what is now saudi arabia, syria, iran and pakistan, they may have braught some seeds with them......chances are they found ganja everywhere around that area anyway.
from the middle east our ancestors went in all directions, taking and finding ganja as they went.
i guess my point is, that most of the genes in all those seeds on seedboutique come from a mungrel background from all four corners of the earth, many with thousands of years of conscious and unconscious selection pressures by man written somewhere in them. our ancestors didnt care about hermies, why would they ??? they were way too busy making hash, like those same guys right now still in pakistan (or whatever) slaving away beating a bundle of stems with a big stick to collect the crystals.
i dont think poor cannabis ever really wanted to be a hermie, or carrie hermie genes in any large amount through her population, although sneaky male genes and techniques exist in most populations, of any creature on this earth, but usually, naturally, at low levels. a vigorous male that produces 10 times the amount of pollen should always outcompete some retarded hermie gene carrying creation .
i dont think cannabis has been allowed to want anything, for thousands and thousands of years, she gets what we let her have.
G
guest123
Hi again Doc,
I was looking for your protocol, continuous parameters. The amount of stress that you felt was appropriate to apply during all selections to achieve a desirable method, all things are not only black and white. For example, continuous light leak to (B) degree might produce 5% of plants with intersexed expression to be culled from population (C). We could turn up the pressure, a lot, so that nearly all plants would need to be culled from population (C). Then, after we've screwed the pooch so to speak -demolishing all kinds of favorable genotypes possible in later generations- we might find out the hard way that parental phenotype doesn't always translate to offspring. As in the case of the Cheese clone that apparently does not breed true for absence of expression regarding intersexed traits.
My point is that it is entirely possible that the Cheese clones sister that did show some intersexed traits with high levels of stress was not necessarily any worse of a breeding plant in that regard than the Cheese clone. And she may in fact have had other beneficial genetic composition giving her a higher overall breeding worth. All things are not only black and white.
I was looking for your protocol, continuous parameters. The amount of stress that you felt was appropriate to apply during all selections to achieve a desirable method, all things are not only black and white. For example, continuous light leak to (B) degree might produce 5% of plants with intersexed expression to be culled from population (C). We could turn up the pressure, a lot, so that nearly all plants would need to be culled from population (C). Then, after we've screwed the pooch so to speak -demolishing all kinds of favorable genotypes possible in later generations- we might find out the hard way that parental phenotype doesn't always translate to offspring. As in the case of the Cheese clone that apparently does not breed true for absence of expression regarding intersexed traits.
My point is that it is entirely possible that the Cheese clones sister that did show some intersexed traits with high levels of stress was not necessarily any worse of a breeding plant in that regard than the Cheese clone. And she may in fact have had other beneficial genetic composition giving her a higher overall breeding worth. All things are not only black and white.
Talking about the interaction of environment with the phenotypic expression of cannabis is a tricky subject, too many variables. Even talking about 'stress' itself is tricky because cannabis, being the tough weed that it is, usually takes a number of insults before it shows a 'symptom'. That's why diagnosis of problems is so complicated. There's actually four things wrong already.
I'm surprised to hear people who have experience with breeding cannibis talk about environment as if it really mattered all that much. I always thought that the reason breeders join the fun in the first place is because they come to understand the ultimate superiority of the gene over the growroom.
I'm surprised to hear people who have experience with breeding cannibis talk about environment as if it really mattered all that much. I always thought that the reason breeders join the fun in the first place is because they come to understand the ultimate superiority of the gene over the growroom.
G
guest123
heehe,
I don't think you could head to the tropics and prepare/breed me up a grip for Alaska. Or, I don't think you would be the toast of Matanuska when all was said and done. Very difficult to judge genotypic value without taking into account the effects of the proposed macro-environment. Tricky, yes, many variables, yes, overlook/underestimate? I'm thinking maybe not.
I don't think you could head to the tropics and prepare/breed me up a grip for Alaska. Or, I don't think you would be the toast of Matanuska when all was said and done. Very difficult to judge genotypic value without taking into account the effects of the proposed macro-environment. Tricky, yes, many variables, yes, overlook/underestimate? I'm thinking maybe not.
LIAS: "sorry vanxant but i do fully understand meiosis.
a femmed girl,
has an x chromosome from her mother and an x from the dad, which comes from his mother."
>>>NO im sorry, that is NOT meiosis. Please review the process of cell division known as meiosis.
Owl, a 'real' pollen gene bank would not want to accept the pollen we have today. They want genetics that are pure and genetically diverse, not all mixed up where your pollen is related to all the others.
MrG:"Anyone who doesn't believe that generations can be improved without incross simply hasn't done it. "
>>>Well, Ive done it. And its a fact that is both written deeply into plant breeding texts as well as my own personal observation that unless you have the genes that will facilitate a specific improvement, you are not going to improve it for those traits. You will need to acquire those genes from an OUTcross and then select it in subsequent generations. Of course you can increase the frequencies of selected genes that are present in the genome, but you cant select genes that are not present.
MrG, I think you are misusing the word 'incross' in your last paragraph of post "165.., could you clarify what you mean by an 'incross'?
AND,...when you say that seeds derived from feminized breeding do not have "enough variation"..thats not right, man. Feminized outcrosses are no different than M/F outcrosses..and WHY would they be??? please explain.
No fans in your indoor growroom????? and youve been developing strains for 25 years with no airflow? thats quite unusual.
MrG:"I tried to preserve and amplify the smooth smoking, deceptively potent WW thing."
>>>>I., like others would like to hear the procedure you used here.
And this? MrG: "I'm surprised to hear people who have experience with breeding cannibis talk about environment as if it really mattered all that much."
>>>> wow.
Have you ever seen a single genotype (clone) grown in 10 different growrooms, or outdoors vs. indoors? or that same clone given no fertilizer and then one given fertilizer? One with bad mites and one with none?
How could you discount the role of Environment on phenotype?
Doc????? come on now. NOBODY takes a pic of 100 plants in pots but only shoots the last 20 of them! Lets see that pic.
a femmed girl,
has an x chromosome from her mother and an x from the dad, which comes from his mother."
>>>NO im sorry, that is NOT meiosis. Please review the process of cell division known as meiosis.
Owl, a 'real' pollen gene bank would not want to accept the pollen we have today. They want genetics that are pure and genetically diverse, not all mixed up where your pollen is related to all the others.
MrG:"Anyone who doesn't believe that generations can be improved without incross simply hasn't done it. "
>>>Well, Ive done it. And its a fact that is both written deeply into plant breeding texts as well as my own personal observation that unless you have the genes that will facilitate a specific improvement, you are not going to improve it for those traits. You will need to acquire those genes from an OUTcross and then select it in subsequent generations. Of course you can increase the frequencies of selected genes that are present in the genome, but you cant select genes that are not present.
MrG, I think you are misusing the word 'incross' in your last paragraph of post "165.., could you clarify what you mean by an 'incross'?
AND,...when you say that seeds derived from feminized breeding do not have "enough variation"..thats not right, man. Feminized outcrosses are no different than M/F outcrosses..and WHY would they be??? please explain.
No fans in your indoor growroom????? and youve been developing strains for 25 years with no airflow? thats quite unusual.
MrG:"I tried to preserve and amplify the smooth smoking, deceptively potent WW thing."
>>>>I., like others would like to hear the procedure you used here.
And this? MrG: "I'm surprised to hear people who have experience with breeding cannibis talk about environment as if it really mattered all that much."
>>>> wow.
Have you ever seen a single genotype (clone) grown in 10 different growrooms, or outdoors vs. indoors? or that same clone given no fertilizer and then one given fertilizer? One with bad mites and one with none?
How could you discount the role of Environment on phenotype?
Doc????? come on now. NOBODY takes a pic of 100 plants in pots but only shoots the last 20 of them! Lets see that pic.
