why not breed with fem'd seed?

[Organic Monk]

Thanks Paz for the response. I think I am following what you are saying. When you are breeding with poly hybrids you have to watch because of the larger possible gene combinations. That you have the possibility of bringing out desirable traits. While at the same time you can amplify undesirable traits. At least this is what I have noticed with my own trials and errors.
It did strike me as strange that when I crossed back to the VBS, two times, that I got all female hermies without any pure males or hermied males. And the pollen that made this happen produced all full blown hermies both male and females, on unrelated strains. I was attempting to use the method of reproducing clone only strains where they back crossed to the BX3 generation and then out cross the BX4 when all hell broke loose.

The Very Berry Surprise was a feminized Blackberry. Gypsie gave them out as freebies after mixed reviews during testing. I don’t remember anyone reporting problems with hermies. I was very happy with my seeds. Purple, berry tasting and good smoke. I didn’t know if anyone else has had similar results when using feminized seeds for a project like mine. I had thought to myself it was due to feminized seeds and was hoping for some feedback. I want to clarify these were feminized and I am not trying to go off topic. Hope my post was clear enough to follow.
.
Thanks again. Organic Monk.

 

[G-life]

IF i took (female) bubblegum to (female) sweet tooth, using any number of chemical methods to produce male flowers from a branch of one...or even both, then use the resulting pollen on the female plants.

i may be mistaken but the chemicals do not effect the genetics of the female only the expression. therefore no male genetics exist. i think productive work can be done with femminized seed. i like the idea of introducing a male in future generations.

lost in a sea--- you are not making a lot of sense but i expect that after reading some of your other posts. lol.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

... When you are breeding with poly hybrids you have to watch because of the larger possible gene combinations. That you have the possibility of bringing out desirable traits. While at the same time you can amplify undesirable traits.

It did strike me as strange that when I crossed back to the VBS, two times, that I got all female hermies without any pure males or hermied males. And the pollen that made this happen produced all full blown hermies both male and females, on unrelated strains. I was attempting to use the method of reproducing clone only strains where they back crossed to the BX3 generation and then out cross the BX4 when all hell broke loose.

The Very Berry Surprise was a feminized Blackberry. Gypsie gave them out as freebies after mixed reviews during testing. I don’t remember anyone reporting problems with hermies. I was very happy with my seeds. Purple, berry tasting and good smoke...

Good Day Organic Monk,

Let me ask you a question as at this moment I am not too clear about; where did the male pollen come from? how?

what I gather is that whatever the source of the pollen, since it affected equally all different offspring of the different female clones, it would be reasonable to assume it was the pollen who introduced a very dominant hermaphrodite tendency.

and yes, when dealing with polyhybrids, one never knows what kind of trait may end up expressing itself, so it is good to work with big populations, to have variety to select from, and probability increases in finding something nice amongst the usually unstable offspring. but this also depends on how were these plants worked before too. as it is your case, where feminized seeds were used at some point...

much peace

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I've done my share of outdoor growing in the last 41 years too. I know that there is some effect to the environment, but with drug quality cannabis, that effect is mostly dictated by the length of the growing season. The rest is genetics. Anyone who believes that nurture beats nature just hasn't spent enough time growing different varieties. Whether it's cannabis or apples or squash or bananas, genes beat out environment when it comes to quality.

As to the OP about using feminized seeds, I'll tell about my recent (4 years) experience with some seeds my friend brought me from the Mekong river area. F1, I had nothing but pure 'fence straddlers' who showed both sexes right from the start. I crossed to something that would at least flower when the day got shorter, and kept inbreeding inclusively from F2 to F5 where I'm at now. Since I've included a fair number of both pistilate and staminate parents in each generation, the complete elimination of the hermaphrodite trait has still not happened, but it's almost gone. Recently, I grew some commercial strains from BC and found at least as many hermaphrodites in one of those strains, so I don't feel too bad. After all, my strain started out as pure Mekong river fence straddlers and is now as 'tame' as someone elses indoor baby. I've always been a believer that hermies were inherited, now I'm more than a believer, I'm a knower.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

...Anyone who believes that nurture beats nature just hasn't spent enough time growing different varieties. Whether it's cannabis or apples or squash or bananas, genes beat out environment when it comes to quality...

i don't understand why you say nature (does not) beat nature?

if genetics rule over environment, that is still nature over nature, isn't it?
just as if environment ruled over genetics...

imo, the two are linked, both are important and both contribute to the final quality of the produce.

peace

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Breed two plants in one environment, and then grow their clones out in another environment, and make seeds from each run.
Granted the P plants will express themselves differently from their clones in another environment, but the F1 progeny will be the exact same map for both sets.
Clearly nature beats nurture every time.
Now, take generations down the line and there may well be some genetic differences in the lines start to show...but do we think that this sort of activity changes a genetic map in a few short generations?
I hardly think so.

 

[DocLeaf]

Why not indeed...

Plenty talk , not much action on this thread still... we done it once,, so we thought we may as well do it again,, lol

Critical [RQS] (clone) ,, originally from a feminized seed pack,, selected because of its strong growth.

,, seeded to W.Widow x Free [So7omon Seeds] male

We'll just have to wait n see how the progeny sow out...

 

[indifferent]

I've got another question...

How long does a feminized plant keep as a mother for? Or as a clone line?

Answer: not very long.. because they get played out real quick!

We don't see many fem. "keeper" clones about ... (after 12 months old),, please throw up photos if you have one

Er, are you saying that a clone from feminised seed will change over time? Clones don't change over time, this is fact. The only way a clone can change is if an external mutagen alters the genetics, an example of a mutagen would be a virus.

There are loads of clones that came from accidental pollinations when a female plant produced pollen from rogue male flowers - OG Kush and ECSD being two prime examples.

I am very against feminised seed but to say that they can't be kept as clones for years is totally incorrect.

 

[DocLeaf]

We are talking about clones that dont produce hermaphroditic flowers man!!! from feminized seed packets,, not bagseeds.

All the clones from feminized stock we've ever known got played out realatively soon.
Like,, Grapefruit. In fact we couldn't name a grower here on IC that keeps a feminized clone that is over 2-3years old. Most reliable clones came from regular seed packs..!

Please enlighten us..

Hope this helps

 

[indifferent]

I've got another question...

How long does a feminized plant keep as a mother for? Or as a clone line?

Answer: not very long.. because they get played out real quick!

We don't see many fem. "keeper" clones about ... (after 12 months old),, please throw up photos if you have one

Er, are you saying that a clone from feminised seed will change over time? Clones don't change over time, this is fact. The only way a clone can change is if an external mutagen alters the genetics, an example of a mutagen would be a virus.

There are loads of clones that came from accidental pollinations when a female plant produced pollen from rogue male flowers - OG Kush and ECSD being two prime examples.

I am very against feminised seed but to say that they can't be kept as clones for years is totally incorrect.

 

[indifferent]

Clones don't change over time, this is fact. The only way a clone can change is if an external mutagen alters the genetics, an example of a mutagen would be a virus.

That was worth saying again as it's hard fact, go read Sam Skunkman's posts where he says the same thing, clones just do not change over time unless an external factor is at play.

You are speculating, which is fine, but don't present your speculations as facts, it helps no-one.

 

[DocLeaf]

Clones don't change over time, this is fact. The only way a clone can change is if an external mutagen alters the genetics, an example of a mutagen would be a virus.

That was worth saying again as it's hard fact, go read Sam Skunkman's posts where he says the same thing, clones just do not change over time unless an external factor is at play.

You are speculating, which is fine, but don't present your speculations as facts, it helps no-one.

Stop confusing yourself!

Think you over-looked the part where we explained that we are putting the theory in this thread into practise.

We dont do subjection ,, we're doing it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za9x3VRmLB4

 

[DocLeaf]

To reiterate,,, it's always possible to make seeds from feminised plants..

.. it's just that we have to do the cross and then grow the seeds out to observe the outcome

 

[indifferent]

I'm not confused at all, I have a very clear grasp of the genetic issues involved in this discussion as I have done my reading on the subject.

I see no point in putting theory into practice when it comes to breeding with feminised seed as I have my hands full with breeding projects involving plants from regular seed.

Clones don't change over time, that is fact, so your statement was wrong, that is all this is about - separating fact from speculation.

Sam Skunkman has clearly posted about clones not changing unless an external mutagen was involved:

I have never had a clone become tired stock as you say. I have dozens that are 20 years old. Maybe the grow was defective in some way? Don't blame the clone.
That said I have had a few clones pick up viruses, and they were affected in vigor and yield.
Keep additional copies of clones in different grows, if one becomes infected toss it and only use the unaffected as mothers for new clones.
-SamS

Here is a post by a guy who has kept a clone from a feminised plant for years:

http://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1908518&postcount=37

I've had Dutch Passion's Flo from feminized seeds coming up on 6 years now. I don't have the space for a mother, so I've been cloning from clones since I've had her. She's still going strong too!!

--Herbsman_OS

I think it is you who are confused, confused about the difference between fact and speculation.

Hope this helps. lol

 

[indifferent]

Here is some very relevant info from Sam Skunkman about feminised plants and intersex traits:

STRESS TO MAKE FEMALES EXPRESS INTERSEXED FLOWERS
I have received several requests to explain how to tell a TRUE FEMALE.
I suggested trying to make a female clone to express male flowers will show it is not a TRUE FEMALE.

Photoperiod disorders. Light leaks.
Photoperiod shock from 20 hours light to 8 and back up to 20.
Lumins disorders, too high or too low of lumins.
Too Hot or Cold.
Too Wet or Dry, air or soil.
Nutrients out of wack, to much or to little.
Pruning shock, plant or roots.
Transplant shock.
Insect shock.
Disease shock.
Self one plant with STS, grow out the progeny, stress test for intersexed flowers. (this also often shows intersexed plants without any stress)


ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS TO USE STRESS TO MAKE A FEMALE EXPRESS A FEW MALE FLOWERS?

-SamS

Breeding with a plant from feminised seed is only a good idea if the original plant that was selfed was a True (XX) female, and as just about every plant that has been selfed wasn't a true female (they are pretty rare) then it will be rather difficult to find a suitable breeding plant from feminised seeds. The chances of a plant carrying an intersexed trait is much higher with feminised seeds than it is with normal seeds. I would strongly suggest carrying out a whole battery of stress tests on a prospective breeding plant before deciding whether to breed with it or not. This of course, takes a lot of time and effort, surely it is better to stick to plants from regular seeds where the chances of an intersexed trait being present are somewhat lower.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

This is the point where I disagree with you fem seed naysayers...
Indifferent, first off I don't think you can show us any evidence of femminized seeds having a higher preponderance of carrying the hermie trait than regular bred seeds.
That being said, there it is quite a bit easier to produce seeds that carry hermie traits when using regular breeding methods, unless you have painstakingly grown out and proven the progeny from a male pollen donor.

Even if you have a perfect mother specimen, the male in most hobby breeders lineup will be the culprit in passing along the hermie. And like I said, it takes lots of growing and selection and testing of the progeny of a male just to see if it is suitable for breeding.

The forced fem on the other hand skips that step in the process, and brings it to a point you can do the hermie testing right away and with both parents. You can go into the thing with two perfect breeding specimens far faster than you could when using the males.

Poor selection is the only thing that brings the hermie rate up, be it regular or forced pollen seeds.

 

[VanXant]

indifferent:"Breeding with a plant from feminised seed is only a good idea if the original plant that was selfed was a True (XX) female, and as just about every plant that has been selfed wasn't a true female (they are pretty rare)"

I have asked Sam the Skunkman about this but he never answers. maybe you can answer this indifferent.

Describe to me how a "true female" is selfed.

Sam says hes done it. Hes found them. Im sure hes made "varieties" with them since he also says you should not use anything BUT these true females to make new varieties.

Dont forget Sam says this too:
(quote)" I have received several requests to explain how to tell a TRUE FEMALE.
I suggested trying to make a female clone to express male flowers will show it is not a TRUE FEMALE."

indifferent:"surely it is better to stick to plants from regular seeds where the chances of an intersexed trait being present are somewhat lower."

>>> thats false. Do you understand that intersex traits can be inherited from the male? they can. I have seen it.

 

[3dDream]

VanXant - Sam: "My own work showed me that if you can not stress a female to change sex with enviornmental stress then after STS it will not express intersexed plants" - STS is how a true female is selfed. Isn't that what he means?


http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1143710&postcount=224

 

[VanXant]

Sam has told me in internet discussions on feminizing that he has found plants that even STS does not reverse. These are the plants he refers to as "true female".

 

[DocLeaf]

Clones don't change over time, that is fact, so your statement was wrong, that is all this is about - separating fact from speculation.

As an annual species cannabis always wishes to flower! Genetically this is what annual plants are programmed to do. Keeping annuals in perpetual vegetative stasis is accordingly an un-natural act,, before we even go on to discuss the stability in sexuality thereafter... please understand that a-sexual reproduction (cloning) in cannabis is not what cannabis plants do. Likewise feminized seeds are artificially produced.

Over time clones / mother plants become played-out... they may inherited pathogens or viruses or simply display signs of enhanced pre-flowering under vegetative cycles of growth.

Regarding abnormal patterns of sexuality,, we observe more hermaphroditic flowers with the age of a mother/clone,, than we do in mothers/clones that are still relatively young ,, resulting in S1 seed. The major exception being 'Cheese' (see below)

Sam's most consistent progeny and most famous clone ,, 'UK Cheese' / Skunk #1 ... is a rare exception,, coming from true breeding stock... this strain,, like many of the plants Sam works with is homogeneous in more than one trait.

Having worked exclusively with Jack Herer as a seed:mother:clone line for almost 5 years in the past,, then we could have only wish what you were saying was in the least but true. however we had to replenish our stock from seed on average every 18 months (at great expense) to ensure that the 'vigor' (very important word) was still passed from seeded mother to clone. Vigor is what makes a plant produce the minerals and played out clone lines simply don't cut it ,, in clone to rooting ratio or on the return (yield per sq. watever) !

The topic of this discussion here however,,, is about using modern (contemporary) feminized seed lines as a base of genetic stock when breeding today. Since modern feminized seed packs give several specimens as a result of slightly new methods of selection in fem. breeding,, it is this that interests us most

Please throw up any photos of any mature (over 2-3 years old) feminized clone lines that aren't deformed or mutated or spitting pollen in 12/12,, we'd love to see them !

Peace, n flowers,,
dL