why not breed with fem'd seed?

[G-life]

There's nothing wrong with using fem'd seeds to breed with. Just don't expect to get enough variation to move foreward much. A concept that took me years to understand is that reducing variation within a given line is not the same as increasing the frequency of similar traits. If your goal is simply to produce a reasonably open pollinated strain, feminizing can bring reduced variability without pushing down many generations.

mr. greengenes your comments have interested me and left me confused. probably because my lack of experience with breeding. go easy on me but can you explain a little more about the difference between reducing variation and increasing the frequency of similar traits? And what does "pushing down generations" translate to?
my take on your comment is that if I am breeding for two traits I am not necessarily reducing the variation of probable hetero/homo combinations by using a male and female. twice as much possibility for future generations?
If I am using femminine seed then my possibilities of narrowing down the traits becomes quicker without having to use as many M/F generations to achieve similar results. however, I have limited myself from the beginning by only have so many combinations to find for future generations and eventually all the recessives and/or "negative" traits, like lack of vigor or messed up mutants, will come quicker as well.
And to resolve this problem I would have to introduce a male.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Sorry G-life, I guess I was lapsing into my lingo. I only grow to support my breeding habit, which has been hounding me for 41 years now. Hmm, I guess the push word means selective pressure to me. Pressure=push. Ok, and the down word means the perspective looking back. The Pedigree. As you look back over the generations of a seed line, you see the action coming towards you, or down to the present. Am I making sense?

"If I am using femminine seed then my possibilities of narrowing down the traits becomes quicker without having to use as many M/F generations to achieve similar results." This is true in my experience. I've made feminized seeds once on purpose, and I.D.'d and collected obvious ones on a few other occassions. I should point out that I don't have fans in my flowering room, so if a male flower goes unnoticed by me it will drop on the bud directly below it.

The fem'd seeds I've grown out were all probably selfed, as opposed to by an unrelated fem'd 'father'. The resulting similarity was, in a word...boring. Mind you, that's in the eye of the breeder. I subsequently gave those seeds away to grower friends who loved them! Two different worlds.

It's quite possible that using different pistilate parents could give enough variation to realize generational improvements, but I think many breeders have noticed sex specific traits in various strains we've played with. Sex is cool, hehehe.

 

[guest123]

I'd say it's more than quite possible.

Above all else, the way to generate variation in segregating generations is to cross greatly differing/divergent lines. M/F brings no extra variation into the picture except for the production of males and all other population variation is inherited autosomally (setting aside said exception, 3females x 3females = 3females x 3males). The all female mating at least can be selected via desired phenotypic values (say greasy buds that get me high which are at least somewhat correlated to genotype. That's an advantage of all female matings aside from the ability to take advantage of selfing. "I used my best male" is one I hear a lot of but rarely is that comment a product of progeny testing. It most often is a shot in the dark with selection parameters bordering on superstition - as far as those greasy buds are concerned anyway.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Very well said, cannafriend!

 

[GMT]

One quick note:

you can't change a female into a male, you can only make her put out male pollen sacks.

 

[Owl Mirror]

One quick note:

you can't change a female into a male, you can only make her put out male pollen sacks.

Hi GMT, like I said I only found the info but, it was stated that it did indeed force the clone to only put out male sacks, not turn it Hermie.
Again, I have no idea, just passing it along to those who wish to give the experiment a try.

 

[PrinSeshJasmine]

.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Isn't it within the plants capability to pollinate itself in extreme circumstance in order to preserve itself? In natural disaster for example....is this what we are speaking of?

This is turning into quite an interesting topic. Regardless our opinions making seed should be respected. As Mr. Green said, this breeding/making seed is a personal thing.

canna, this male is the best! the most hollow stems ever, amazing find only popping 2 seeds to find it!

Hi Jasmine, I believe that is what occurs in nature when the female goes all season without being pollinated. Since it isn't harvested by anyone, it goes beyond the 50/50 amber point naturally. I've heard if a plant reaches this point in her life without producing seeds, she will throw out male sacks in an attempt for self-perpetuating.

Perhaps when we go about harvesting our crop, we leave a few choice lower buds on the plant and continue maintaining her until she throws some sacks and pollinates herself? The buds wouldn't be good for smoking but, they might contain some precious seeds.

 

[GMT]

Hi Owl, beware of what you read mate. Think about it logically. A female has 2 female chromosomes, a male has one of each. A female can be forced to produce pollen sacks, but cannot be forced to alter her genetic coding. Therefore if you force a girl to grow pollen sacks, you arent actually making her male. She may not throw any pistils, but she is still a she.

 

[PrinSeshJasmine]

.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi Owl, beware of what you read mate.
She may not throw any pistils, but she is still a she.

If I remember correctly, that is what was being described. "not throw any pistils"

I'm sorry I didn't save the link to my favorite now.
It was one of those pages with code preventing you from copying the text.
It contained pictures of the results and, the plant in question definitely looked more like a stud than a 'klinger'

 

[G-life]

Sorry G-life, I guess I was lapsing into my lingo. I only grow to support my breeding habit, which has been hounding me for 41 years now. Hmm, I guess the push word means selective pressure to me. Pressure=push. Ok, and the down word means the perspective looking back. The Pedigree. As you look back over the generations of a seed line, you see the action coming towards you, or down to the present. Am I making sense?

perfect sense. little by little I am beginning to take pride in noticing recurring phenotypes within a given line and especially interested in noting certain traits being passed by chosen males or females. I am learning it takes a lot of time or space or in most cases both. but I am determined to find a nice male that is proven. much harder to do than the females. I just hope other people like him as much as I will. Of course narrowing down the many type of males I am looking for will probably not happen in my life time but I think I can come pretty close with most of them.

When does one decide to keep certain moms and dads around when a desired progeny is found to be consistent among them? My ultimate goal is well beyond anything a limited feminized line can bring, I think :shrugs:
And definitely does not stop with finding an elite clones in the normal sense of the word. Elite in my mind has the ability to pass on something special as well as be special on her/his own.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Now that the United States is passing alternate laws regarding Marijuana.
Would it make any sense to develop a pollen bank ?
Breeders from around the country, who have breeding stock males could deposit pollen. (or clones)
The various commercial growing operations, as well as the individual, could then base their breeding programs around an unlimited variety of quality pollen without having to do the searching and weeding out from their stock. I see it as being equal to stud service.

If Medical Marijuana is allowed under their respective state laws and, dispensaries, growing operations are an allowable activity. It seems only logical that this type of production of breeding quality pollen should also be allowed.
I don't think it could start off with any nationwide reciprocal agreements, just like seeds but, within the various states that have these laws, local organization of this type of operation might be developed.

Well, it's a thought to consider ;>}

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"M/F brings no extra variation into the picture except for the production of males and all other population variation is inherited autosomally (setting aside said exception, 3females x 3females = 3females x 3males)." sounds good in theory, but lI'm looking back at quite a few strains over many years, two of them I've worked for over 25. I can tell you from experience that enough variation can be found within a seedline for steady improvement, even if that line started with seeds from a single pistilate plant, pollinated by a single staminate plant. Of course I backtrack (progeny test) certain seedbatches, and include varying percentages of staminate parents, linebreed (intergenerational crosses) and other cute tricks, but I generally work towards open pollination as much as (the amount of variation in) each generation allows. Of course, there's so much persistant variation in cannabis, that even a strain like my Cherry Bomb which hasn't had an incross in probably 22 generations, is not totally open pollinated. I probably only save seeds from, and use pollin from, about 75 percent of the plants right now. Another twenty years down the road and who knows? One thing is for sure, CB isn't losing any vigor or showing more 'mutants'. In fact growers have told me CB is bulletproof and impossible to kill.

G-life, as far as finding holy grail males, progeny testing is the only way to go. It's no big deal, has to be done sometimes. It just takes patience. Problem is, it can still cause failures in the way of dead ends unless you test all males. A surer, but slower way is to invite them all to the party! Use a percentage (I'd use all if I bought ten seeds) of the male seedlings pollin. If three out of five of the females look really good, use three fifths of the males. Try to choose ones that compliment their sisters, and have any structural (or any non smokeable trait!) traits you like. You're probably going to have to progeny test certain generations of females anyway, so removing the recordkeeping work of the males is a huge relief. By keeping things 'in the mix' and applying gentle selective pressure for a few generations, you're more likely to get those greasy buds showing in your seedbatches than by throwing all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

 

[Organic Monk]

I would like to share my experience with this subject. I am not a breeder but I do enjoy crossing plants to find something new, only for myself now because of what I’m going to discuss. I’m am not technical on all the terms so bare with me. I had 4 packs of the Very Berry Surprise. I selected three females from these. Tested them with several types of stress including light leaks and had no signs of hermies. I test all my plants with stress. I used 2 G13 X Blueberry Sativa male to cross this with. The males were used on Bubble Gum, Oaxacanna, Bubble Dust, Hash Plant and Sour Cali. I never had the first hermie from any of these and I have grown out 3 generation of these crosses. I had three friends helping at this time.
When I did the VBS X G13BS I selected 2 males and backed cross them to the 3 VBS mothers. Tested them without problems. Selected 2 males from these and backed crossed them again to the VBS mothers. When I grew these out everything was female and hermied around week 5 ruining everyone’s crops. The pollen that created this was also used on several other strains also produced the same results. I had no males only female hermies.
I still have a little more to go when I crossed the VBS X G13BS to them selves making F1, F2 and F3 I ran into hermies in the F3 generation, although these did produce males some of which turned hermied. If anyone could tell me what happened or how to fix this I would appreciate it. You will have to give time to respond because I cant type. I still have about 300 seeds of the first VBS X G13BS left. Pictured below. It sure was good smoke. I cant figure out were I made a bad selection at or if these are separate problems.
Thanks Organic Monk.

 

[guest123]

Well Mr. G, when I look back over the last quarter of a century with honesty and scrutiny, I feel at best I can say that I have done a fair job of maintaining genetically diverse lines in their pure form. I reckon I have done more preservation work than the vast majority of folks in this thread. Open pollinations are always greater than 100 and male pollen mixes on the top 5% of hundreds during selection rounds and these techniques go back decades with me. But, I can't really say that I've done any population improvement without taking into account hybrids. I remember someone in this thread once asked me some 10 years back if I thought I had anything "improved", lol, I had to say, no.

Without your definition of vigor it is difficult to comment on the other. Haze grows fast, and well, but not as often anymore is it able to put together truly epic complex favorable genotypes.

If I remember correctly, when you released CB and folks brought it indoors, shock and awe ensued when intersexed traits showed that you had never seen in your outdoor populations. I am going through that same thing now, applying selection pressures (light leaks etc) that are new to the plants I have grown/bred outdoors for decades+ with no problems. So, do we apply this pressure in the name of good because some dude said "all hermies are bad". Or, do we make sure we also maintain an "older" separate, more variable outdoor population via open pollinations as well? Apologies for going off topic, I only do because I seem to remember you having experienced some of this. I often wonder how much of our precious cannabis diversity will be totally squandered on selection for moronic situations such as light leaks etc...

GMT, can we have a "male" that looks 100% female due to environmental influence? Have you ever done a M/F cross where all the progeny have been "males"?

 

[DocLeaf]

One quick note:

you can't change a female into a male, you can only make her put out male pollen sacks.

Haha... You can inhibit the female side of its sexuality using chemicals. That's all.

Likewise,, selecting "male flowers",, from sexually unstable parents,, after using methods of stress,, is far from a desirable method of breeding.

Owl Mirror - Soma calls the method you mention of stressing females to produce naturally occurring male flowers "Rodelization" ,,, n.b. because the dude that taught him it was called 'Rod'. There's a chapter about it in one of his books

Hope this helps

 

[guest123]

Haha... You can inhibit the female side of its sexuality using chemicals. That's all.

Likewise,, selecting "male flowers",, from sexually unstable parents,, after using methods of stress,, is far from a desirable method of breeding.

Hope this helps

99.9% of females can and do this in nature Doc. Every single plant you, or anybody else has ever bred to has been a sexually unstable parent. You are trying to haphazardly draw lines across something that is a matter of degree. At what exact point is it far from a desirable method of breeding? Tell me, what exact methods of stress/pressure have you personally applied/employed in selection prior to your releases to avoid your definition of "far from a desirable method of breeding"?

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"when you released CB and folks brought it indoors, shock and awe ensued when intersexed traits showed that you had never seen in your outdoor populations." There's lots of odd stories going around, even for such a little known strain, I can't blame you for thinking that. Why anyone would think CB is an 'outdoor' strain, I'm not sure. I bred it almost exclusively, as I have everything else, indoors. It's true that I retained the traits that make it a tremendous outdoor strain, but never the less, it was mostly bred indoors.

As for Prariefires claim that my pure CB plants gave hermaphrodites, I'm not sure that he wasn't trying to justify the hybridization he made with the other 'cherry bomb'. It's obvious that he wanted to keep my pure CB to himself, so the solution (he probably learned it from my OG posts) was to make an F1 hybrid and sell that. When people complained, he claimed he had to make the cross because 'Mr. Greengenes CB hermied'. I bred CB for many generations, male to female strictly. I didn't even see a 'hermie' in the first generations. Of course, after all these years, I'm a very low stress grower. It's like the mountain people who have a bad heart gene that never shows up because they exercise so much. Maybe I just don't identify 'hermies' because they behave in my garden? I think the moral of the story is, don't believe everything you hear. Better to ask the source.

I'm pretty sure your definition of vigor, as well as many other traits would agree with mine.

 

[guest123]

You know, the overgrow archives are safe and sound

My point is that none of us, not a one, go through the rigorous testing in many different environments that normal plant breeders do, and I'm not sure we can afford the loss of diversity either.